Applying advanced chords into different scales?

[fireseed]

Hi all!
I really hope someone here can help with this..
When playing a Major 13th chords, how would you apply that, or any large chord like that to different scales? Do the chords bend to fit the scale or does the scale bend to fit the chords?
Constructing a major 13th chords from C in the C scale from the formula
Root + 4HS + 3HS + 4HS + 3HS + 3HS + 4HS
Gives you all notes that fit clean into the scale.
But use that same formula into the C# scale. Taking a note that would compose itself as a major by following the scale the 5th, G# you get

G#, C, D#, G, A#, C#, F
Most match the scale, but G the 7th does not.
This is just one example of where I have come across this before have have been able to find no sound answers.
Basically, would it be correct to improvise any minor, diminished, augmented or extended chord into a scale so as that the chord stays the same and the boundaries of the scale change for that one exception?
Or would you change the scale into a minor, harmonic or other 'specialty' scale to make room for any unique chords in advance? If so, would you be able to use the notes of the original scale at all?

I'm have been trying really really hard to learn as much about the instrument as possible on my own, for a current lack of money to get good lessons...(I really want Yoke Wong's Improvisation course!!) and would be able to soar if I could put this pestilent riddle to rest!

~Thanks

[keyofc]

I know it's late - and I might not understand your question totally.

But are you saying that the intervals don't always line up in the scales for you?

If you're playing a Major 7th chord with a 13th -
just remember 13 minus 7 always works.  The 6th and 13th is the same.(just an octave up)

Just as 11 minus 7 is 4.  The 11th and 4th are the same.  (just an octave up)

Same with a 9th - 9 minus 7 is 2 - meaning 9th and 2nd are same notes.

Hope this helps...

[fireseed]

Hi again, thanks for the response, but I'm still not quite getting it...
Your subtraction is losing me...are you just referencing a quick way to identify what interval notes are at? Looking at the keyboard you can count up the C scale and easily see that say D, the second interval is always going to be the 9th up and octave and so on...
I meant something slightly different maybe;

Take G for example, in the C major scale. Follow the same pattern and you get a F#, which isn't in the C major scale. It is a major chord in the scale so shouldn't it be able to play an extended major chord and still fit into the scale if the scale is fixed?
I just learned a song (Aerith theme by Uematsu Nobuo) which appears to be in a 10 note scale...there are lots of large chords and there are only two notes that aren't used in the entirety of the song.
How would you decipher what scale that is? By what the 'main' notes are and I am guessing the exceptions would have to be in the larger chords, but doesn't that break the law of 'scales are fixed?'

Thanks again!

[nanabush]

I am totally confused reading your post.

G# - C - D# - G - A# - C# - F

couldn't that just be:

Ab - C - Eb - G - Bb - Db - F  ... and be in Ab major?

I'm listening to the piece now, and it just sounds like a bunch of modulations into new keys.  It doesn't stay in the same key the entire time, so you'll eventually come across cases of notes that don't fall in the original scale.

[keyofc]

What do you mean when you say,
"Follow the same pattern and you get a F sharp?

Are you thinking about a G major seventh chord?

[loonbohol]

I cannot understand anything.

[slobone]

A chord of a particular type should have the same intervals regardless of what the key is. Therefore, if you have to use accidentals in one key but not another, you're doing something wrong.

A diatonic 13th chord would contain the following notes from bottom to top:

C - E - G - B - D - F - A

A 13th chord in C# would be

C# - E# - G# - B# - D# - F# - A#

Maybe what's confusing you is that E# is the same note as F, and B# is the same note as C. But when you're writing a chord in a particular key, you have to use the scale tones of that key, so you have to notate it the way I just did.

Hope that helps.