10 note scales?

[fireseed]

Hi, I posted something similar to this in another part of the forum, but now realize that it is probably the wrong spot, so I'm going to try to word it better here...
If you take G in the C major scale and try to make a major chord with it. Follow the same pattern up the keyboard as you would for making the same chord in C and you get a F#, which isn't found in the C major scale. G is by default a major chord in the C scale and therefore should it not it be able to play an extended major chord and still fit into the scale if scales are supposed to be 'fixed?'

I just learned a song (Aerith theme by Uematsu Nobuo) which appears to be in a 10 note scale...there are lots of large chords and there are only two notes that aren't used in the entirety of the song. Would this also maybe be because of exceptions with large chord usage? If so would that not erase all implications of the 'scales are fixed' rule?
Or how would you ever decipher what scale such a song is in?

Thanks again!

[quantum]

Not exactly sure what the question is.  Can you be more specific to what the scale and chords are.  When you say 10 notes are you talking about the number of notes in a scale run or the number of pitch classes a scale you are trying to describe to us?

Example: C D Eb F G A Bb C
This is C Dorian with 7 pitch classes.

Are you talking about scale tone chords?  In such case C major: G would be the dominant or V chord.  In G major D would be the V chord which includes the F#.

Note that accompaniment can be in a different mode as the melody.  
Eg: A V-I chord progression can be used with a melody in which the mode asks for a flat 7th degree.  That is a major V chord, with a minor sounding 7th in melody.  

[fireseed]

I should have specified a GM7 chord, sorry.
Where you are playing in a C scale, and C is I and G is V.
Construct a M7 chord for C, play it. Construct it the same way using G as the root, and it produces a F# which is contrary to the C scale.
Basically, is would it be absolutely incorrect to ever use a GM7 chord, while playing in the key of C?
Although I am quite interested in what you mentioned about using a different mode for accompaniment- could you suggest how I could find more good information on this?

I just don't understand how the Aerith theme that I mentioned has A#, G#, in addition to F#, C# that you mentioned, and every single white note.
'My favorite things' is commonly played in G but also has a D# and C#.
'The Entertainer' has G# D# A# F# plus every white note minus F.

These are all songs that are fairly common to western culture, would they all really be in bizarre scales or is there something else going on?
 

[scottmcc]

I think you missed the lesson on modulation.  while the home key of a piece may indeed be C, notes not contained in C are used when the piece progresses to other keys.

quite simply, even in works that are completely "tonal," whatever that means, there are certainly episodes of "wrong" notes to for various dramatic effects.

and in general, if you are firmly rooted in C, and want to play a V7, you wouldn't use GMaj7, but just G7.  (like if you were playing a 12 bar blues and were using C, F, and G7)

[quantum]

When it comes to music theory, I prefer not to deal in absolute correctness or wrongness.  Bach broke many of the rules which we teach in harmony today.  It is more a question of is this theoretical concept appropriate to the style of music I am looking at. 

Eg: We say don't write parallel 5ths.  In general western harmony follows this rule.  But remember parallel organum came before this.  Is it wrong - no it is just a different way of writing music.  I've heard examples of Georgian vocal music that feature parallel fifths, the effect is quite intriguing because we normally do not come across that sound in Western music. 

Read up more on modulation as Scottmcc suggests.  Just because we are in the key of C, doesn't mean we have to say there. 

"Wrong notes" can give flavor and spice to music.  Just in the same way a V-I progression can.  It is about the dissonance-consonance relationships and how they can be artfully executed. 

The examples you cited.  In My favorite things I believe those accidentals are a result of modulations.  In the Entertainer those notes may be considered passing notes. 


For examples of a melody being in a different mode than accompaniment you may want to listen to some folk music (not necessarily Western).  Particularly things that are modal.  The example I cited above would be a common occurence of such happening.  The gravitational effect of a solid V-I cadence combined with a modal melody.

[fireseed]

...

Wow.
Good answer.

Your wisdom will work well,
thanks!!

[fireseed]

...Just one thing

Could anyone recommend a good place to learn about modulation as mentioned?