Questions about Bernhard's approach

[Daniel_piano]

Bernhard I've a question for you
You said that an big error many students do when practicing a piece bar-by-bar (section by section) is to choose a section that it's to big
So, the solution is to know what is the appropriate lenght of a section that our brain can handle easily
So ones repeat a section 7 times and if after 7 times it is not memorized it means that the section should be shorter (maybe half the chosen section)
By doing this one doesn't practice actually but just figure out the right section lenght for practice
This approach is also utilized by prof. Hugh Brent but he wasn't able to give me an answer about my doubts

So let's say that with the "seven ripetitions approach" I find out that the section I practice shouldn't be larger than a bar

Not let's say that the piece I've to practice is 100 bars

So these are my doubts

1) Only the hard, tecnique demanding sections should be practiced
So if in my 100 bars piece the only problem is with a 7 bars chromatic scale I just practice it
But what if every section of my piece is hard, tecnique demanding and need serious practice ?
The right lenght of the section I should practice is 1 bar, 15-20 minute per bar ... well I would need 2000 minutes daily so that is 33 hours out of 12
So how does one resolve this problem ?
I mean you find out that the proper lenght of your practice section is 1 bar and you have 100 bars to practice, none of them is harder or more tecnique demanding ... all of them demanding the aquiring of new tecnique

2) Let's say instead that out of 100 bars only 10 are problematic and I practice only them
So what am I supposed to do with the other 90 bars ?
Should I not practice them ?
Should I practice them in a different way ?
Should I just practice them by playing the whole piece ?
Aren't I supposed to practice, use tricks and variations only on those hard sections ?
So how do I memorize, play smoothly and flawlessly the other "less hard/non hard" sections I haven't practice them ?

Just some doubts about section-by-section practice I had
Thanks a lot for your precious suggestions

Daniel

[xvimbi]

So these are my doubts

1) Only the hard, tecnique demanding sections should be practiced
So if in my 100 bars piece the only problem is with a 7 bars chromatic scale I just practice it
But what if every section of my piece is hard, tecnique demanding and need serious practice ?
The right lenght of the section I should practice is 1 bar, 15-20 minute per bar ... well I would need 2000 minutes daily so that is 33 hours out of 12
So how does one resolve this problem ?
I mean you find out that the proper lenght of your practice section is 1 bar and you have 100 bars to practice, none of them is harder or more tecnique demanding ... all of them demanding the aquiring of new tecnique

In this case, I would say, the piece is overall too hard. Obviously, if I just started to play the piano and I am going to tackle Rach3, it will take me 20 years. So, Rach3 is too hard at this point, and I should play something else, so that at some point, it will take me only 6 months to get Rach3 down.

2) Let's say instead that out of 100 bars only 10 are problematic and I practice only them
So what am I supposed to do with the other 90 bars ?
Should I not practice them ?
Should I practice them in a different way ?
Should I just practice them by playing the whole piece ?
Aren't I supposed to practice, use tricks and variations only on those hard sections ?
So how do I memorize, play smoothly and flawlessly the other "less hard/non hard" sections I haven't practice them ?

Well, the way you phrase it, there is a problem. But I think you took it too literally. Obviously, you need to somehow memorize the piece (actually, only if you want to perform it, damn Liszt for that!).

[bernhard]

xvimbi is right.

But let us ellaborate a bit on it:

You said that an big error many students do when practicing a piece bar-by-bar (section by section) is to choose a section that it's to big
So, the solution is to know what is the appropriate lenght of a section that our brain can handle easily
So ones repeat a section 7 times and if after 7 times it is not memorized it means that the section should be shorter (maybe half the chosen section)
By doing this one doesn't practice actually but just figure out the right section lenght for practice

You do not need to necessarily memorise. The main point is that if after seven repeats you are still stuck, then make the section smaller. On the other hand, you may repeat a section seven times and find out that you can play it perfectly. In which case do not waste time practising it. Move on.

However there are sections that although you may have learned in seven repeats, you know that it is far from perfect and secured. These are the sections you need to practise, and sometimes you will have to practise them for a very long time, even when you are already performing your piece.

So let's say that with the "seven ripetitions approach" I find out that the section I practice shouldn't be larger than a bar

Not let's say that the piece I've to practice is 100 bars

So these are my doubts

1) Only the hard, tecnique demanding sections should be practiced
So if in my 100 bars piece the only problem is with a 7 bars chromatic scale I just practice it
But what if every section of my piece is hard, tecnique demanding and need serious practice ?
The right lenght of the section I should practice is 1 bar, 15-20 minute per bar ... well I would need 2000 minutes daily so that is 33 hours out of 12
So how does one resolve this problem ?
I mean you find out that the proper lenght of your practice section is 1 bar and you have 100 bars to practice, none of them is harder or more tecnique demanding ... all of them demanding the aquiring of new tecnique

You are thinking too much! You are reasoning about this. Your doubts and reservations spring from your imagination and thinking, not from actually getting to the piano and trying it out. This is the typical intellectual approach: “What if?”.

Just try it.

However I will indulge you.

I doubt very much that there is a piece in the whole piano repertory in which all the bars are exactly the same level of difficulty. Typically, a couple of bars (or passages, or sections) will be far more difficult than the rest of the piece. Usually a single passage is the most difficult. Start with this passage. No matter how much time it will take you, stick with it until you master it, because all the technique you need to master a full piece will be contained in its most difficult passage. So after you master the most difficult passage(s), your perception of the difficulty of the piece will change dramatically. All those 100 bars that you thought impossible will turn out to be quite easy after you mastered the most difficult bar. So your whole time calculation will turn out to be an imaginary problem, that has no real existence.

Beginners have the following problem at this point: they are in no position to judge which is the most difficult passage. To them it is all equally difficult. Which is why beginners really need a teacher. However, with a good teacher, after a few months the student starts to realise what is going on and becomes more and more independent of the teacher to organise his learning schedule.

2) Let's say instead that out of 100 bars only 10 are problematic and I practice only them
So what am I supposed to do with the other 90 bars ?

You should play them straight away and concentrate on solving musicality/memorisation problems.

Should I not practice them ?

Why should you? Do you practise walking? Do you practise running? Do you practise riding on a bicycle? Of course not. (But one day you did!) You already know how to do this stuff, therefore you just do it!

Should I practice them in a different way ?
Should I just practice them by playing the whole piece ?

Once you get your whole piece ready, you should stop “practising” it and perform it! As often as possible.

Aren't I supposed to practice, use tricks and variations only on those hard sections ?

Yes, practice tricks, hands separate, etc. are done for a very limited time only for the purpose of thoroughly learning and ingraining the movements. Once you get that, you simply play and enjoy the piece. Practising is a temporary process to be get rid of as soon as possible. Consider learning a new language. Are you going to keep practising it forever? Of course not. You practise the bare minimum to allow you to start using the language. After that usage replaces practice. In music usage is performance. As soon as you can perform, perform it. That is it! You got there!

So how do I memorize, play smoothly and flawlessly the other "less hard/non hard" sections I haven't practice them ?

 

The other day, a student came with a CD to the lesson and said he wanted to learn a piece from the CD. It was a piece by Shostakovitch called “Dance of the dolls no.6”. On the CD it sounded pretty impressive. However it was a ridiculously easy piece he probably wrote for children. However it was fast and dazzling. The kind of piece that sounds far more difficult than it actually is. So I sat at the piano and sight read through it. There was some tricky fingering here and there. It was just one page long. Six minutes later I had it perfect and memorised. That was it. However it will take perhaps a full month for this student to master it, and he will need to use a lot of practice tricks.

What else can I tell you? From your posts I imagine you are reasonably advanced. Get a simple piece (for you), say , the second movement of Mozart’s K545. I am willing to bet that you could learn the first part of the second movement just by sightreading through it, without having to resort to practise tricks or section by section learning.

These methods are restricted to pieces you do not even know how to begin. With experience such pieces become less and less common, until you get to the point of a Richter who could memorise a full concerto from the score in a couple of hours, go to the piano and give a flawless performance. The point is, he was not born like that. He had to work a lot to get to that point.

I hope this helps. But above all, do not get lost in thought: try it out! All these methods are powerful, but they all have limitations and situations where they will fall apart. The only way to find out is trying them out.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.


Daniel

[squiggly_girl]

WOW Bernhard, you rock. I have learnt so much from these forums, but especially from your posts. Do you know I have even printed some of them off to refer to later? So, THANKYOU. THANKYOU. And again I say THANKYOU.

[squiggly_girl]

Woops, and another thing I wanted to add, that I had just been reading about and gleaned from Chang's book Fundamentals of Piano Practise. I quote

“the secret for acquiring technique quickly lies in knowing certain tricks for reducing impossibly difficult passages to not only playable but also to trivially simple ones.”

reducing a piece down from x number of bars to y << x number of bars by recognising similar patterns. Using Fur Elise as an example, he showed that because the first 4 bars are repeated 15 times, just by learning those 4 bars you can play 50% of the piece. Although not all pieces are as reducible as this one, the principle still applies…just about everywhere I would say.

[Daniel_piano]

All those 100 bars that you thought impossible will turn out to be quite easy after you mastered the most difficult bar.

Once you get your whole piece ready, you should stop “practising” it and perform it! As often as possible.

Thanks a lot Bernhard for answering me
These two statements are the answers to all my doubts

I've another question:
Since understanding what are those bars that once mastered will permit you to turn out all the other remaining bars in easy ones is important, what do you think it's the best way to understand what these bars are ?
Should you recognize them on the sheet music away from the piano or it's just a matter of being able to play them at easy ?
Should all the bars I can't play istantly at full speed considered worth practicing and hard ?

Sorry If I take advantage of you but you have another request  :-/

What would you suggest me as a way to practice Schubert Impromptu op.90 n.3 (original tonality of G-b)
What do you think are those hard bars that once mastered will permit to play easily also the other bars ?
What do you think is it a right section length for this piece ?
What methods/tricks are best utilized for this piece  (chords, thirds, stopd, finger groups, variations in rythm, dinamyc, articulation, speed, outlining etc ) ?

Thanks again
Daniel

[yamaha]

Hi  Bernhard  

I would also be grateful for any tips you can give regarding the Impromptu No.3 in Gb, I am preparing this piece or a Diploma exam on 22nd July !!  I have learnt all the notes etc and can play the piece fairly well at the moment but I feel the inner part needs work to make it  totally even  

This is a fantastic forum    I read it everyday (when I should probably be practicing   )  I have learnt sooo much recently, especially from you, Bernhard, many thanks  

May I ask (I hope this isnt inappropriate  :-/) where you live?

[yamaha]

Hi  Bernhard  

I would also be grateful for any tips you can give regarding the Impromptu No.3 in Gb, I am preparing this piece or a Diploma exam on 22nd July !!  I have learnt all the notes etc and can play the piece fairly well at the moment but I feel the inner part needs work to make it  totally even  

This is a fantastic forum    I read it everyday (when I should probably be practicing   )  I have learnt sooo much recently, especially from you, Bernhard, many thanks  

May I ask (I hope this isnt inappropriate  :-/) where you live?

[yamaha]

oops........sorry for the duplicate post  

[newsgroupeuan]

Woops, and another thing I wanted to add, that I had just been reading about and gleaned from Chang's book Fundamentals of Piano Practise. I quote

“the secret for acquiring technique quickly lies in knowing certain tricks for reducing impossibly difficult passages to not only playable but also to trivially simple ones.”

reducing a piece down from x number of bars to y << x number of bars by recognising similar patterns. Using Fur Elise as an example, he showed that because the first 4 bars are repeated 15 times, just by learning those 4 bars you can play 50% of the piece. Although not all pieces are as reducible as this one, the principle still applies…just about everywhere I would say.

I think bernhard gave similar advice in an earlier post,  but I may be wrong

[newsgroupeuan]

Bernhard,  since you're answering questions on your method,  I may as well ask questions:

I am attempting Chopin's Fantasie impromptu (I have spare time,  and I like this piece) -

I am trying to put the right hand and left hand together

I am taking it half a bar at a time ,  and sometimes I will perhaps take it a bar or two at some easier parts.

I have the first line and a half complete.

BUT

I have came across some problems:

Namely,  The rhythm is nasty (simple and compound at the same time),  so I am finding it impossible to apply slow practice to the piece.

and it's perhaps a bit hard to show you the part without showing the book, but some parts,  to take it half a bar at a time,  I have to chop a phrase in half,  and the phrase sort of ends in mid air,  and I have to work to join all the fragments togetherr at the end.

[bernhard]

WOW Bernhard, you rock. I have learnt so much from these forums, but especially from your posts. Do you know I have even printed some of them off to refer to later? So, THANKYOU. THANKYOU. And again I say THANKYOU.

You are welcome.

[bernhard]

Thanks a lot Bernhard for answering me

You are welcome.

I've another question:
Since understanding what are those bars that once mastered will permit you to turn out all the other remaining bars in easy ones is important, what do you think it's the best way to understand what these bars are ?
Should you recognize them on the sheet music away from the piano or it's just a matter of being able to play them at easy ?
Should all the bars I can't play istantly at full speed considered worth practicing and hard ?

The ultimate answer to this question is experience. The more experience you have, the easier it will be for you to spot the passages that will be difficult to you (yes, it is highly personal). Everyone has their pet hates. For some people is double thirds (Ashkenazy in an interview said that double thirds have always been easy for him – he just seems to have a natural technique for them). For other people is ornaments. Or octaves. And so on and so forth. So just by looking at a score you usually can pretty much predict which parts will give you cause for grief.

However, many times the score can be misleading. A lot of Baroque music does not look particularly difficult on paper. Conversely, there is plenty of pieces that look very forbidding on the page, and yet are not that difficult to play (I remember as a teenager looking at the score of Chopin’s Military Polonaise and thinking that it would be impossible to master, and yet it is one of the easiest Chopin pieces).

So, in my opinion (meaning that this is what works for me), the best way to figure out which bars are going to be troublesome is to sight-read through the piece. This of course assumes that one can sight-read even if it is at a very basic level.

So I do both: I work at the score, and I sight read the piece.

And yes. Any passage that you cannot play at tempo and perfectly while sight-reading should be isolated for practice. Sometimes is just a matter of ingraining the fingering (Bach and Scarlatti are notoriously exacting in terms of fingering). A few minutes practice and the passage is mastered. Other passages may present formidable technical problems. You may need to spend much time just investigating and experimenting with different movements fingering until you reach the best solution (for you, for that passage). And even then, you may need to spend sometimes years practising it until it becomes easy and comfortable (and sometimes it never does!). But these are extremes. Normally things are not that radical.

It is also very important to understand the nature of the difficulty. Why is the passage so difficult? The answer to this question is what ultimately will decide the practice approach to it. Is it difficult to read the score (a problem with much modern music). If so sometimes you may “cheat” and rewrite the score in a more readable way, and this simple trick may take years of practice off your back.Is it because the idiom is unfamiliar (again a problem with both modern and early music)? If so, one needs not practice at the piano, but practice at the CD player. It is simply unbelievable how much practice time at the piano one can save by simply becoming thoroughly familiarised with the style/structure of a piece.
Is it fingering? Then relentless repetition making sure you always repeat the correct fingering should overcome the difficulty in a matter of minutes. Is it the physicality that is required? For instance if your hands are small you may find Rachmaninoff forbidding in comparison with someone that has big hands. Conversely if you have large hands, Mozart may not be the easiest for you. Is it because the piece is too fast? too slow?

So as you can see, one must spend time trying to understand the true nature of the difficulty. Again, a teacher may spot straightaway what the student is doing that is making it impossible for him/her to play with ease. You can also try to video yourself when playing a passage that is difficult for you and observe why it is so difficult. At the same time, see if you can watch someone who plays the same passage with great ease. This sort of comparison can be most enlightening (I am not suggesting that you imitate someone else’s movements. I am suggesting you “model” them. Modelling is very different form imitation).

What would you suggest me as a way to practice Schubert Impromptu op.90 n.3 (original tonality of G-b)
What do you think are those hard bars that once mastered will permit to play easily also the other bars ?
What do you think is it a right section length for this piece ?
What methods/tricks are best utilized for this piece  (chords, thirds, stopd, finger groups, variations in rythm, dinamyc, articulation, speed, outlining etc ) ?

Yes, the last time I entered these woods was when Green asked me to describe the way to learn Bach’s Invention in C. He he he.   That took me some three weeks and possibly the longest post ever (it had to be broken down in three separate posts). Give me a couple of weeks and I will come back to it.

In the meantime, I suggest you get hold of the Alfred Brendel DVD/video “Alfred Brendel: Man and mask” where he plays it. Although Brendel is not one of my favourite pianists, I find very interesting the almost non-challant way he plays this piece. He truly make it look easy. He hardly moves at all. There is no hint of virtuosity. This may give you an idea of what to aim for. (By the way, does any one knows why he bandages his fingers?).

It may also be a good idea to start a new thread (I don’t think anyone has asked about this impromptu before), this way you will get more feedback.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Hi  Bernhard  

I would also be grateful for any tips you can give regarding the Impromptu No.3 in Gb, I am preparing this piece or a Diploma exam on 22nd July !!  I have learnt all the notes etc and can play the piece fairly well at the moment but I feel the inner part needs work to make it  totally even  

This is a fantastic forum    I read it everyday (when I should probably be practicing   )  I have learnt sooo much recently, especially from you, Bernhard, many thanks  

May I ask (I hope this isnt inappropriate  :-/) where you live?

I will try to say some thing about the impromptu soon (hopefully before the exam, he he )

I live in the UK

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[jeff]

"I am suggesting you “model” them. Modelling is very different from imitation)."

what is the difference? do you just mean that imitation would be exactly copying, and modelling is a rougher, more general sort of imitation?



and about brendel:

"(By the way, does any one know why he bandages his fingers?)."

i saw him play for the first time recently (on a video), and noticed that.. i thought that maybe it was to make his fingertips more compact. or maybe leperousy?

[newsgroupeuan]

and about brendel:

"(By the way, does any one know why he bandages his fingers?)."

i saw him play for the first time recently (on a video), and noticed that.. i thought that maybe it was to make his fingertips more compact. or maybe leperousy?

On a newspaper ,  there was a caption of the plasters on his fingers,  and it says he does that to stop his figernails from getting broken or chipped or damaged or something like that