Bach Fantasia BWV 904 -- Sustain Pedal ??

[presto agitato]

Hello

Im learning this fantastic piece.
Just wondering if you would agree about using the sustain pedal in discrete way in this piece.

Here is the score and the audio:

[slobone]

I didn't know that piece, thanks for posting.

As for pedal with Bach, there really are no absolute rules, since Bach didn't write anything directly for the piano. So just use your own judgment. My preference is not to use any pedal at all, but that's partly because I don't like the sound of the pedal on my old piano very much.

[baadshah]

i love this fantasia, and the fugue is even more awesome- i love that chromatic second subject...

I tend to think (tho I have zero authority in piano playing so would kindly defer to anyone else's opinion!) that as the organ, and the various types of harpsichord that existed at the time, each have many unique features that cannot be imitated on the piano, we may as well use the piano to the full extent of its features. Pedal can improve tone, and also support the harmonies and inner voices. Of course, we stilll have to be very discrete- avoid blurring the harmonies and masking the inner voices etc

BTW, check out BMV 944- somehow i only just discovered it. Theres an awesome richter version on youtube somewhere.

[baadshah]

That was an amazing youtube video btw. But what happend to the opening E in the prelude? Is there another version in a different edition?


Coming back to your question, I was thinking, when we play a fugue on the piano, we bring out the different voices using different volume, tone, touch, sustaining notes etc. Whereas on the harpsichord we have to use articulation, ornaments but little volume or sustain is possible. So we are using the strengths of the particular instrument to bring out the depth present in the music. In the same way, just as harpsichord and organ have stops and various sound-effects etc, the piano has the peddle, so best use it if we deem it appropriate- and the una corda peddle too.

Here is the Fantasia and Fugue I mentioned - opus 944, played by richter.

[pianowolfi]

Hello

Im learning this fantastic piece.
Just wondering if you would agree about using the sustain pedal in discrete way in this piece.

Here is the score and the audio:

Whereas I would have no problem with using the pedal in a discrete way, I admittedly don't like this particular interpretation on youtube. To me it seems over-ornamented and full of mannerisms. I have read that Bach was actually famous for writing out every ornament and people back then even complained about this...because they were used to add the ornaments by themselves.
So, no matter if we play Bach on a harpsichord or a modern piano, we should be very selective at adding ornaments.

[slow_concert_pianist]

Firstly, Brendel is a power of a human being and every pumped up "showman" should take his words seriously. On to your question...I, and I doubt Brendel for that matter, would never apply sustaining pedal to the works of Bach. I occasionally use a dab on Mozart, but never on Scarlatti or Haydn. A Pletnev recording I recently heard barbarized a Scarlatti sonata but sustaining the whole score recently. As much as the admiration I have for Pletnev, he has gone down several notches in my estimation after that one.

Personally I try and the big Beethoven fugues ( i.e. hammeklaviar, Sonata 31) with as little pedal as possible. I am currently working on Busoni's transcription of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor. I am trying to master it without pedal as I feel it should be played in the spirit of Bach. Early days - I may change my mind on that one . We'll see how it turns out.

If you were unaware Bach rarely applied any dynamic markings on his manuscripts. There were no bar lines, so all scores available today are "editions" NOT made by Bach. Everything other than the notes (for the large part) are editorial suggestions for enhanced performance.

[pianowolfi]

 There were no bar lines,

Huh? And what is this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/BWV605.png

[slow_concert_pianist]

Huh? And what is this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/BWV605.png

Is that an original manuscript? I was taught bar lines were added after Bach's death. If I am wrong I  retract that statement

[richard black]

Personally I would never dream of playing most Bach works _without_ the sustain pedal. As for Busoni transcriptions, I'm pretty sure he would have been horrified by the thought of pedal-less performances, but hey, why not? Variety is the spice of.... and all that.

[slow_concert_pianist]

Personally I would never dream of playing most Bach works _without_ the sustain pedal. As for Busoni transcriptions, I'm pretty sure he would have been horrified by the thought of pedal-less performances, but hey, why not? Variety is the spice of.... and all that.

Well I guess it boils down to how they are performed

I doubt Busoni would be horrified, I think "flabbergasted" might be more accurate sentiment . I was being a little rhetorical and hardly practical as I do not believe Busoni's Bach transcriptions are possible without sustaining pedal.