Difficult Baldwin SD-10 Question

[john11inc]

It's fairly common knowledge that old Baldwins are awesome and new Baldwins are garbage; this I already know.  I'm looking for a specific year/time-frame of Baldwin that I want to try out, but I... don't know exactly which one it is D:

I'm looking for the piano used on this disc:

https://www.amazon.com/Alexander-Scriabin-Complete-Piano-Sonatas/dp/B000005IWW

[quantum]

The bass on that recording is sweet isn't it    I'm not crazy about her early Scriabin interpretations, but that piano!

If memory serves correctly it was recorded at Columbia U.  Possibly St. Paul's Chapel.


I played a large Baldwin in for memorial service once - beat up, out of tune, but awesome sound.  

[john11inc]

So then, not sure on what year it's from?

[rachfan]

There have been extensive discussions of Baldwin pianos on Piano World.  The consensus there has been that while Baldwin has gone through some rough financial crises and dubious management under Gibson Guitar Co.'s ownership, the quality of their Artist Grand line has remained very high through the decades up to the present.  The same was not true, however, of their budget grand pianos under the now defunct Chickering and Wurlitzer names, or their upright lines.  Baldwin Artist grands are still being made at the Truman, AK factory by a small group of craftsmen who build to special order only.  In addition to workmanship, there has been no compromise in the materials specifications either. Anyone can be confident buying any model of Baldwin Artist grands.  Having said that, exactly as is the case with NY Steinways, Baldwin Artist Grands need extensive dealer prep prior to sale.  If they get that TLC, they are wonderful, satisfying and durable pianos.  Mason & Hamlin, frankly, does the best factory prep here in the U.S., but they also use some Chinese parts in their grands now too.  Their dealers have much less to do prep wise.  

I own a Baldwin Model L (6'3") bought new in 1984.  I give it a lot of use, so did a partial rebuilding in 2007.  After conferring with Del Fandrich, former design engineer at Baldwin, I elected to use my own choice of materials.  Instead of Baldwin SychraTone bass strings, I used Arledge Bass strings, Mapes International Gold wire for the treble bridge (with new No. 2 tuning pins), and Ronsen Wurzen hammers instead of the Baldwin specified Renner hammers.  The shanks and flanges were also replaced.  The traditional key punchings were replaced by the revolutionary new Crescendo Conical wurzen wool front rail and accelerated balance rail punchings.  The piano gets a lot of compliments now, as it has a really vibrant tone.  Does that mean that because I didn't choose the current Baldwin specifications they are somehow inferior?  Not at all!  My objective was to get my 1984 Baldwin to more closely approach the sound of a 1960s Baldwin, and with the materials I selected, I more closely achieved that goal to satisfy my own wishes and taste.  Incidentally, I was a former Steinway owner and am glad I switched years ago to Baldwin.

The late Ruth Laredo was a great pianist and was listed in her lifetime as a Baldwin Artist, and in concerts she usually played the SD10 (9'), of course.  (Ivan Davis and Earl Wild also come to mind as having been on the artists' roster.)  I have Rachmaninoff and Scriabin recordings of hers, the latter recorded at St. Paul's Chapel at Columbia U. in 1970, and the piano sound is incredible--vibrant yet warm and rich.  If I had to make a wild guess, perhaps the SD10 was from the 60s.  Any of the SD10s are fantastic instruments.  There is one piano that has one up on the SD10 though, and that's the Baldwin SF10 (7'). The SF10 has always been reputed to have finest scale design of any Baldwin piano ever designed.  If I had a room for it, I'd own the SF10.

  

[dankal]

Listen to rachfan, he's got it right.

Baldwin's financial difficulties, much of which have to do with the squeeze between super high-end pianos and the flood of deep-discounted Asian products, all has little to do with the fundamental integrity of the Baldwin Artist brand.

If however you are speaking of a pre-1970's Baldwin product, then here are a few things to keep in mind:

1) Yes.....Baldwin turned out some great pianos between 1910 and 1969.
2) No.....Not every piano made in a particular timeframe is going to be a good one.  This will depend on the climate in which the piano has lived, the care or abuse it has been given, its age, and the current condition of important parts:  the action, bridges, soundboard, pinblock, rust on the strings, etc.
3) You will need to educate yourself on being able to recognize a good one when you see it and recognize the questions to ask in knowing that you've got a good one......or not.
4) Find a good piano technician to help you sort through the process.....and it is a process to be sure.

Do you know what size piano you want?  The best sounding Baldwins of course are many times the larger models, which can have a deep, complex tonal color if they aren't voiced too brightly.  Or course, not everyone can handle the expense or space requirements of a 9' SD10, nor can the room in which it is placed always handle the sound as it should.

I was fortunate enough to come across a modestly used, 1984 SF10 (7'), which also needs generous space to integrate and reflect in.  I agree with rachfan, the scale design for this model is fantastic, which was also the opinion of my piano technician, after working on it (minor repairs, voicing, and regulation).  If you search for a used SF10, you'll see they are among the hardest to find models......I think for good reason.  When you find a good one, you've really got something.  Good luck with your search.

[keyboardkat]

I really wouldn't agree 100% that all older Baldwins are awesome and all new ones are junk.
I do remember at the age of 16 going to Tanglewood for the first time (in the summer of 1961) and playing on the SF-6 7-foot grand that they had in the little reception room.  I had never heard a sound like that, a bass like that.  I was used to my high school's beat up Steinway B, which had a nice sound but a muddy bass.  But a lot of older Baldwins were stigmatized as sounding tinny and metallic, usually because (I learned this from a technician years later) the strike point of the hammers on the treble strings was incorrectly adjusted.
Also, in Baldwin recordings, the microphones were often too close.   Ivan Davis' 1960 Liszt recording is an example of this.  The piano sounds like an amplified harpsichord.  It sounds like the mike was right inside the piano.   Each hammer stroke sounds punched, with a thin after-ring.   But in live concerts, the old Baldwins sounded much better than that, especially with room acoustics added.

The first SD-10s that came out were incredible because, although they had a longer ringing, fatter sound, the had not lost that slightly percussive real Baldwin sound.   But Baldwin has suffered from mismanagement, and often shot itself in the foot.  It is possible to voice an SD-10 warm and mellow for Brahms and Schubert, and Liszt would sound better that way, too.  But in the '90s, Baldwin's concert technician, the late Andre Svetlichtny, who came from a jazz background, insisted on voicing the pianos overbrilliant.  My own teacher, the late David Bradshaw, a Baldwin artist, used to complain that he had to hire someone to bring down the tone before a concert, and then Andre would later change the piano back again.   The company suffered a loss of concert artists because they stopped listening to their artists. 

Baldwin went through a period when their instruments were... well, once in Macon, Georgia in 1986, in a piano store, I played first on a Yamaha C-5 conservatory grand, and then on a new Baldwin R, the 5'8" model.   The Yamaha was mellow, deep and controllable.   But the Baldwin was so overbrilliant, and had such a light action, that it was like a toy piano.   Had I been in the market at that  moment, I would have bought the Yamaha.

I have a Baldwin R with the old scale design, and I love it.
 

[rachfan]

Hi keyboardkat,

I agree with what you say about brightness.  True, Baldwin has always been a favorite of jazz pianists, but when their pianos are prepped for classical music, they have an extraordinarily beautiful sound.  I knew that the Model L's (6'3") had been juiced up to compete with the introduction of the Yamaha S4 in 1984 which offered a more powerful sound.  I bought my model L new that year and liked the sound for 24 years.  But when I was getting ready to partially rebuild it a few years ago, I chatted with Del Fandrich, a former Baldwin piano designer.  To restore the intended Baldwin sound, he wisely advised me not to purchase replacement Baldwin-specified Renner hammers, but instead to go with Ronsen Wurzen hammers, shanks and flanges.  What a difference!!  I used to like the sound a lot, but now I love it.  I also used Arledge Bass Strings instead of the Syncho-Tone strings--another very wise choice in terms of having a profound bass with clarity too.       

Sadly I've heard that Baldwin is now turning over building of the Artist Grand line to the Chinese.  I believe it could mean the end of the piano as we've known it.

David

[keyboardkat]

Hi, David,

I was once told that the 6'3" Baldwin before the redesign was considered to be Baldwin's best balanced scale.  My Model R 5'8" has the old scale design.  I bought it from the jazz pianist Valerie Capers, and this piano had not been loved.  The hammers had been pounded almost flat.   I had new hammers put in, and had the action re-weighted.  But more recently, I had the piano re-strung, and had the black plastic keys replaced with ebony keys, and had the action weight changed again, with new Renner hammers, and it's marvelous.
I asked Baldwin whether Synchro-Tone strings would sound good with the old scale design, and was told, "The bass strings we're making now won't fit your piano."  I was advised to go with Mapes bass strings, which is what we did.

I would be very interested to know what your L sounds like.

[keyboardkat]

I am VERY sorry to learn the Baldwin may shift Artist grand manufacture to China.
What a sad end for a once-great company!   I guess we Baldwin lovers will be stuck with rebuilding old pianos.  Maybe there will be a renaissance, as happened with Mason & Hamlin...
someone will start making pianos to the old Baldwin design, as they were once made.  But they may have to use a different name.