Why aren't there more Italian composers?

[Bob]

And how we did end up using Italian editorial terms?  Allegro, etc.

If we have fairly standard terms in Italian, I'm wondering why we ended up using them -- If there were tons of Italian composers, that would make sense.  But I'm not thinking of too many -- Vivaldi, Verdi, Scarlatti.... Any other big names who are Italian?  Stradivari, but I don't think he was composing anything.

I think this came up in a music history class, but I'm blanking on it.  It's something with the evolution of music...

[oxy60]

Do you still have your old text books? Better dig them out. The Italians were very influential and very prolific composers. Maybe we can get our sysop to break down the downloads by the nationality of the composers.

If you were to choose, which language would you prefer for musical terms?

[retrouvailles]

There are many, many big names in Italian music. Just look into opera!

[birba]

The first so-called piano was built by certain Bartolomeo Cristofori, I believe.  Canto gregoriano is the cradle from which all later music derived..Let's face it.  It all began here.  It's true, there's little to show from Romanticism on,(in comparison to the anglo-saxon side) but by that time the Italian musical language was ingrained in all music.  Even Beethoven couldn't get away from it, despite his lame attempts at german directions in some of this last sonatas.
Interesting post, though, and a lot to be said for it.

[richard black]

It's true, there aren't many Italian composers if you discount

Bellini
Donizetti
Verdi
Puccini
Sinigaglia
Pizzetti
Boito
Pick-Mangiagalli
Castelnuovo-Tedesco
Sgambati
Menotti
Casella
Monteverdi
Durante
B Pallavicino
C Pallavicino
Respighi
Nono
Dallapiccola
Caccini
Stradella
Boccherini
Gesualdo
A Scarlatti
Busoni
Malipiero
Leoncavallo
Mascagni
Cilea
Gui
Petrassi
Clementi

.... just off the top of my head, you understand.

[oxy60]

If you look at the home page here for the popular downloads and composers, the Italians are hard to find. I must admit that I don't have any Italian compositions on my music stand. I plan to rectify that right away..

[john11inc]

It's true, there aren't many Italian composers if you discount

Bellini
Donizetti
Verdi
Puccini
Sinigaglia
Pizzetti
Boito
Pick-Mangiagalli
Castelnuovo-Tedesco
Sgambati
Menotti
Casella
Monteverdi
Durante
B Pallavicino
C Pallavicino
Respighi
Nono
Dallapiccola
Caccini
Stradella
Boccherini
Gesualdo
A Scarlatti
Busoni
Malipiero
Leoncavallo
Mascagni
Cilea
Gui
Petrassi
Clementi

.... just off the top of my head, you understand.

Don't forget (tries to do this in his head):

A. Clementi
Paganini
Berio
Castiglioni
Bussotti
Bettinelli
Scodanibbio
Gervasoni
Valdambrini
Gandini
Scelsi
Sinopoli
L. Verdi
Kagel
Sciarrino
Donatoni
Maderna
Parmegiani
Ghedini
Gerhard
Rota
Savinio
Porrino
Ohana
Salieri
Giordano

Italian music after Schoenberg (that is to say, after its domination of Opera), took an extremely unpopulist direction typically, diverging into things wildly avant-garde, with the "heads of state" of the other direction, so to speak, preferring a refined and reserved type of writing that never really wows the beginner/intermediate audience.  But believe me, there is no shortage of contemporary Italian composers, nor quality.  They're more a breed of their own, or have been up until very recently, typically more "appreciated" than "listened to".

[retrouvailles]

Gerhard
Ohana

These guys weren't Italian. They were Catalan and French, respectively. I do agree with your later points, though. And yes, there is definitely no shortage.

[john11inc]

These guys weren't Italian. They were Catalan and French, respectively. I do agree with your later points, though. And yes, there is definitely no shortage.

I don't know why I thought Ohana was Italian with a name like Maurice d:  I don't know much about him, but I do know he did a lot of his studying in Milan and Rome, so I just assumed lol

[retrouvailles]

I don't know why I thought Ohana was Italian with a name like Maurice

Haha, Maurice is such a French name. Just look at Ravel.

[mikey6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Italian_composers

[Bob]

Ah, I'd forgotten about more opera and modern composers.  For opera yes, I think of Verdi.  These aren't the ones that spring to my mind as being most popular though. 

For written instructions, English.  Everyone should use English, even before it was developed.  That would make my life much easier.  Someone needs to tell those dead composers they needed to use the English language before it was finished developing.  Darn them.  But they shouldn't like Grainger.  They should have fairly standardized terms (like Italian) so people who translate that language don't have to spend hours deciphering one composer's instructions. 

I guess I just see Italian composers as middle level composers.  Not as popular.  Not so much the heavy hitters.  At least in my mind. 

[retrouvailles]

I guess I just see Italian composers as middle level composers.  Not as popular.  Not so much the heavy hitters.  At least in my mind.

The Italians have their share of importance. The musical world would definitely be missing something without the Italians, and history does owe a lot to them. We can perhaps do without the American composers more than the Italian composers, especially because Italians have been around longer.

[john11inc]

I guess I just see Italian composers as middle level composers.  Not as popular.  Not so much the heavy hitters.  At least in my mind.  

From 1940 to 1970ish they were actually probably the most important, if we're talking about a whole country, not to mention during the Baroque Era they were the most popular typically.  Goffredo Petrassi is probably the most important figure in early electronic composition (with Francois Bayle and Luc Ferrari coming in 2nd/3rd).

[john11inc]

The Italians have their share of importance. The musical world would definitely be missing something without the Italians, and history does owe a lot to them. We can perhaps do without the American composers more than the Italian composers, especially because Italians have been around longer.

Yes; sad to say, America hasn't been making its fair share of contribution to music the past 40 years or so (particularly true this decade), mostly shoving out trash like Torke, Danielpour, Liebermann, Glass, Corigliano etc.  (Not to say any of those composers have no, good pieces, of course).  America has definitely been the comparatively "accessible" country for a while now.

[furtwaengler]

America has definitely been the comparatively "accessible" country for a while now.

What a shame. 

[john11inc]

What a shame. 

Yes, quite.  Let me rephrase: "commercialist".  Exact same thing, different word.  Now it's evil!  Woo.

[retrouvailles]

Yes; sad to say, America hasn't been making its fair share of contribution to music the past 40 years or so (particularly true this decade), mostly shoving out trash like Torke, Danielpour, Liebermann, Glass, Corigliano etc.  (Not to say any of those composers have no, good pieces, of course).  America has definitely been the comparatively "accessible" country for a while now.

Well, I do agree with this point to an extent, I wouldn't call some of these people trash. Torke and Glass are almost complete sell-outs though (on most occasions, at least), and I would lean closer to calling their music just plain bad on some occasions. However, the others still show a lot of compositional chops, even if they take a more populist route in composing, which there is nothing wrong with if done correctly (I would argue that Danielpour, Liebermann, and Corigliano, among others, do it correctly). There is no rule that every composer has to do something innovative in his compositional life.

Goffredo Petrassi is probably the most important figure in early electronic composition (with Francois Bayle and Luc Ferrari coming in 2nd/3rd).

Yeah, let's just forget about Edgard Varèse, Léon Theremin, and Pierre Henry, right? None of these guys happen to be Italian, if you notice. Petrassi et al were nowhere near as significant as the French innovators.

[richard black]

If you look at the home page here for the popular downloads and composers, the Italians are hard to find.

Yes, I think there's a case to be made that Italy never was the first place you'd look for piano music. Vocal music, now, that's a different matter.

[john11inc]

Yeah, let's just forget about Edgard Varèse, Léon Theremin, and Pierre Henry, right? None of these guys happen to be Italian, if you notice. Petrassi et al were nowhere near as significant as the French innovators.

You are saying those three composers are more important to electronic music than Petrassi or the Italian Futurists?  I'd love to know why you say that.

[retrouvailles]

You are saying those three composers are more important to electronic music than Petrassi or the Italian Futurists?  I'd love to know why you say that.

Well, for starters, Theremin invented the instrument named after him, which is probably the earliest instance of electronically produced music, around 1919. Without him, there would be no electronic music at all, or it would have taken longer to happen. Busoni, who was one of the first to postulate that there was even a possibility for electronic music in his "Sketch of a New Esthetic in Music", and this paved the way for his student Varèse (I'm sure you know the Poème Électronique, which is probably the most significant early electronic work). Also, without Pierre Henry (or Pierre Schafer for that matter), there would pretty much be no musique concrète. How did Petrassi even figure into any of this? He is mostly known for his 8 concertos for orchestra, which are great significant works in this own right. Oh, and btw, I'm stopping right here so I don't further hijack this thread.

[furtwaengler]

I know its not on subject, but I have enjoyed the brief exchange on the history of electronic music. My knowledge is limited, but this could be it seems the limitless genre, and is endlessly fascinating.

Ah well...back to Italy. Bruno Maderna I see has been mentioned but was Bruno Canino? Also wasn't (isn't?) Menotti American?

[birba]

Bruno Canino is a pianist.  I don't think he composed anything.  Menotti is considered Italo-American.  He would never had had the success he had if he hadn't gone to America.

[minor9th]

Ettore Desderi (1892-1974)