Using Both Hands

[xjerbearx]

Hi!
This is my first post on the forums and i just have a question about using both hands
I've only been playing for 2 days (self-taught). I know its a little but i've been playing guitar for 3 years so i know my basic theory and the notes. I've already started using both hands to play a song im learning Hikari by Utada Hikaru. Currently im learning measure by measure and it takes awhile to get the timing with both hands right. Sometimes i mess up with my right hand or my left mostly my right (I'm left-handed if that has anything to do with it). I'm always practicing each part separately then putting it together. I just want to know if through constant practice will learning songs with both hands become easier or is it going to be the same old learning the song bar by bar slowly? I love music and can willingly spend a whole day on the keyboard =P, so any advice will be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks~!
::EDIT:: Oh by the way so far i can play the first 4 bars >.< perfectly with both hands.  

[iroveashe]

Yes it'll get much easier, but technique is improved mostly practicing hands separate, and only when you have things perfectly with each hand, and if possible 1.5 times as fast as the performance speed, then put both hands together. A good method for doing that second step is something that Bernhard (a member who's a teacher) called 'dropping notes'. Do a search for that to read what it is.

[alysosha]

Get a teacher.

[xjerbearx]

Get a teacher.

I don't feel like paying for a teacher is worth it, after all i've been playing guitar for 3 years, i know all my notes and believe that these skills can still be acquired through self-teaching. I also mentioned that i can indeed play music on the piano. I don't think getting a teacher would be a convenient method for solving my "specific" problem =P. I'd appreciate if you posted real helpful advice^^.
For the first post thanks, i checked on it and it seems to be the method im using, i guess ill keep up the work i've been doing now and hopefully my brain will adapt =P
Thanks~!

[alysosha]

I don't feel like paying for a teacher is worth it, after all i've been playing guitar for 3 years, i know all my notes and believe that these skills can still be acquired through self-teaching.

you're wrong

I also mentioned that i can indeed play music on the piano. I don't think getting a teacher would be a convenient method for solving my "specific" problem =P.

you're wrong

I'd appreciate if you posted real helpful advice^^.

I've given you best advice anyone possibly could.

[beethovanfreak]

It sounds to me, as if you just need to keep practicing. My teachers loves to tell me "Slow practice equals fast learning." After about 6 years of taking from her, I've come to realize it really does work!

Also, try using the metronome (if you have one). Start on a really slow beat (like 65-75) and move your way up. That also might help.

[xjerbearx]

you're wrong
 

you're wrong


I've given you best advice anyone possibly could.

The best answer isn't always spending $80 a month on something that i feel in mycase is unnecessary.
I'm just saying im not going to get a teacher just to fix my one problem, i'd prefer to learn by myself since, in my own opinion teachers are good for starting you off, for the piano i feel like i can learn it myself, after all it's just a hobby i love doing, i'm not aiming to become a musical genius, playing is for self-enjoyment, you don't necessarily need a teacher to enjoy and appreciate the instrument and music as it is.
I guess ill just keep practicing slowly and see how i progress thanks.

[iroveashe]

The best answer isn't always spending $80 a month on something that i feel in mycase is unnecessary.
I'm just saying im not going to get a teacher just to fix my one problem, i'd prefer to learn by myself since, in my own opinion teachers are good for starting you off, for the piano i feel like i can learn it myself, after all it's just a hobby i love doing, i'm not aiming to become a musical genius, playing is for self-enjoyment, you don't necessarily need a teacher to enjoy and appreciate the instrument and music as it is.
I guess ill just keep practicing slowly and see how i progress thanks.

You wouldn't be hiring a teacher to "fix that one problem". You'd be hiring a teacher to make you realize of all the problems you are not currently aware of. Alysosha's advice is a good one, and saying you don't need a teacher without even knowing what a teacher does is not very wise.

[rmbarbosa]

I do agree with the other fellows, namely with Iroveashe. Only a good teacher, not only a "teacher". There are a lot of "teachers" who teaches nothing, but a good teacher is gold. And hands together is only the first problem. Do you Know anything about  good tone, relaxation, hand motions, flat fingers, glissando, palm spreading, and - the most important of everything - how to "feel" the piano? and to really play music?
Best regards

[maestro1987]

I started learning piano about 3,5 months (late beginner at the age of 22) ago with a teacher who is professional pianist and also gives performances. Although I knew elementary music theory (notes, intervals, chords) it was quit a challenge to get hands moving together. Coordination is the key word but it takes time to develop. In order to learn a piece fast you kneed to know technique which is much more than pressing the keys. Taking lessons is crucial because teacher gives you tips how to solve diffrent problems and also how to make the piece come alive.
Getting the sound from the piano is one thing but making it breath....that's different.

And now answer to your question: Yes, it gets easier, at the moment I was given Beethoven "Sonatina in F major" 1. mvt to learn and I could sight-read it HT at low speed. Some tips:
     1. analyse the piece (find repeats, scales, arpeggios, chords and their progressions)
     2. when you play, see intervales and group of notes not single ones
     3. play HT in slow motion to feel every detail
     4. when you are comfortable playing very slowly, increase the speed
     5. keep chosen tempo, do not slow down.

It is better to practise phrase by phrase rather than bar by bar.

[indianajo]

The reason you learn to play with one hand alone until you are bored with it is that, if you are playing perfectly slow, the lower parts of the brain learn the movements correctly, like catching a ball or walking properly.  Once you are perfect slow, then you can speed up one hand alone.  Different parts of your brain control the different hands, so doing each hand independently trains each appropriate area in it's own movements.  Once each hand is perfect alone, then the counting you have been doing to control the hand can be used to put the hands together.  Each part of the brain will play back it's own learned movement to the counting (your internal metronome).  If you've watched a sports team, they spend a lot of boring time hitting a rack of dummies (american football) to make the movements automatic, not thought about.  Piano is kinetic, like a sport, and ideally the mechanical part is done by the lower parts of the brain, not the conciousness.  Later your higher brain can do expression by turning up or down the volume, (force) or turning up or down the speed, etc. If you don't have a teacher, and you really want to play well, force yourself to buy the czerny fingering exercises, or at the rudimentary level, the belwin fingering exercise books.  These teach movements that should come naturally like crossing fingers, even strength between the thumb and the little finger etc, in time tested ways that won't cause carpal tunnel or the disease Schubert got with his strength building machine.  Also, hold the heels of your hands straight with your arm; this prevents carpal tunnel syndrome and is another trick a teacher (or a factory safety representative) would keep reminding you about.  Look at the audience, not your hands, is another teacher rant that should start at the very beginning.  Good luck, even if you don't hire a teacher.   

[lostinidlewonder]

......I'm always practicing each part separately then putting it together. I just want to know if through constant practice will learning songs with both hands become easier or is it going to be the same old learning the song bar by bar slowly? ........I don't feel like paying for a teacher is worth it, after all i've been playing guitar for 3 years, i know all my notes and believe that these skills can still be acquired through self-teaching.

From your guitar playing you will notice that when you started your learning was slow but got faster the more you became familiar with your playing your guitar. The same happens for the piano as in other instruments, you improve in many different things, sight reading, memorization, technique, coordination etc.

A teacher would be helpful for a few months at least. At least this way you can understand what is proper and how to learn your music efficiently for the piano. With the guitar you can play with ineffective technique and still produce a good sound, but the piano is a lot more unforgiving and there is a lot more to learn to control in the piano than the guitar.

[xjerbearx]

I do agree with the other fellows, namely with Iroveashe. Only a good teacher, not only a "teacher". There are a lot of "teachers" who teaches nothing, but a good teacher is gold. And hands together is only the first problem. Do you Know anything about  good tone, relaxation, hand motions, flat fingers, glissando, palm spreading, and - the most important of everything - how to "feel" the piano? and to really play music?
Best regards

I appreciate all your advice, but I'd just like to clear things up.
 I do know what music is, i feel it, i know relaxation is better, i feel relaxed when playing the piano, i feel comfortable, i feel right at home with the piano, and lastly i don't play like a robot. Just because of my inexperience with the piano doesn't mean that I think i can recklessly take on this musical challenge.  Playing the guitar has taught be important things from music that teachers cannot teach you, they can only guide you. Once again, i play the piano as a hobby something i love and want to take time with slowly discovering new things as i progress as a musician.
I did have a teacher for the guitar, and i know what a teacher does, assuming i don't know what a teacher does and telling me i don't, doesn't help me with my problem.
Once again i just wanna say, i "want" to learn piano by myself, I joined these forums to learn from other members and how they apply tips and tricks, and once i get experience, contribute myself. I asked my question and wanna say thanks to people who gave tips and tricks/advice on how to practice to learn with both hands.
lostinidlewonder, If you don't have proper technique with guitar, you can make sound, sure... but you can't make that sound into soulful music. Anyone can play a tune note by note, but he/she will never be as musical or as good as a person with practiced technique who knows their vibratos, bends, ghost notes, raking, palm muting etc. Just wanted you know, technique is EXTREMELY important with guitars. They also require control with your fingers, and really good finger independence so the other fingers don't get in the way or let the guitar perform to it's potential. Lastly my learning experience for the guitar has gone from slow>fast>slow, and i practice alot (3-4 hours daily, not anymore since i started piano.) I'm guessing the piano is the same, from what i took in from this thread.
Regards to maestro1987 and indianajo for their excellent tips, i'll apply them to my playing.
I'll also try checking up on the internet for correct posture and practice lessons. 
 

[moonbat]

Hi!
This is my first post on the forums and i just have a question about using both hands
I've only been playing for 2 days (self-taught). I know its a little but i've been playing guitar for 3 years so i know my basic theory and the notes. I've already started using both hands to play a song im learning Hikari by Utada Hikaru. Currently im learning measure by measure and it takes awhile to get the timing with both hands right. Sometimes i mess up with my right hand or my left mostly my right (I'm left-handed if that has anything to do with it). I'm always practicing each part separately then putting it together. I just want to know if through constant practice will learning songs with both hands become easier or is it going to be the same old learning the song bar by bar slowly? I love music and can willingly spend a whole day on the keyboard =P, so any advice will be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks~!
::EDIT:: Oh by the way so far i can play the first 4 bars >.< perfectly with both hands.  

Even though I'm a self-taught beginner, I've learned Hikari (it's the piece that inspired me to play).

I'm not sure which version you are using. I learned the "easy" version. The harder version arranged by kylelandry isn't something a beginner should touch, so if that's the version you have, I'd suggest you grab the easy version from Ichigo's Sheet Music.

The best advice I can give is to continue practicing hands separately, and once you can play each hand at your desired tempo, then you should put them together. The hardest part of the song for you will probably be the right hand of measures 18-25, seeing as how you're left-handed. But overall, if you practice enough, you'll be able to learn this piece.

There's a great book on the Internet that you can read for free called Fundamentals Of Piano Practice. I've found it to be pretty useful.

https://www.pianofundamentals.com/

[hemlock]

Hello!

Taking lessons for learning the piano is not totally necessary, but strongly advisable. Because, as mentioned somewhere above, a teacher can show you things and techniques or turn your eyes to problems you are not even aware of. I have experienced this many times during my lessons, and each lesson gives me the feeling to have gained something. This is also helpul for your motivation. And you also have someone to give you honest and helpful (!) feedback.
But if you‘re determined to learn it all by yourself, go ahead. As long as you have fun and no wrist pain or anything...
As for your so-called „problem“: That ain‘t a real problem, but the troubles all beginners have to deal with. You write that you have been playing for two days - and frankly, that is nothing. Also the fact that you have a certain level of technique and skill on the guitar won‘t help you here, as the instruments are obviously totally different. Your brain has to „understand“ and handle the new tasks you put it to. This process takes time, I‘ve been playing for about 14 months now and every time I begin a new piece I face the same problem as you do. But in time it‘ll work, you‘ll see, just keep practising. And don‘t get impatient! Learning to play the piano demands patience more than anything else.

So, have fun practising (and maybe you give the teacher-issue another thought  )

hemlock

[lostinidlewonder]

...., If you don't have proper technique with guitar, you can make sound, sure... but you can't make that sound into soulful music.... I'm guessing the piano is the same, from what i took in from this thread.

With the piano it is easy to produce the sound, unlike the violin or guitar for instance. With the piano you can produce the sound simply by pressing down the keys. But because the piano can easily produce its sound it then has countless other effects you can do with it, much more so than what you can find on the guitar. When you do something not completely right on the guitar the strings make a funny sound, you notice you are wrong immediately, but with the piano, you can do something wrong and not notice it at all. That subtle part of piano playing is what makes it a lot harder instrument to play correctly.

Coordination and technical issues at at the piano also overshadow any other instrument in my opinion. Of course people can learn general piano playing, LH support vs RH melody, but you can only go so far with this style of music.

It is important, as with learning all instruments, to work at an efficient rate. Too many people try to learn their music with brute force, tirelessly repeating passages with little thought. Sometimes this ability to think as we practice needs to be shown to us before we can understand it. The logic behind learning keyboard music with BH is certainly unique amongst all instrument and is much more detailed than what you would face with other instruments.

[slobone]

I sometimes wonder -- are there teachers who will let you come once a month? That's what I'd like where I am right now. Give you a piece and say, work on it for a month and then come back and play it for me.

That would get around the problem I always have of not wanting to play a "work in progress". Usually I know exactly what needs to be done, I just haven't had time to do it yet.

Once the piece is learned, then definitely, a teacher can tell me how to play it better. But I'm pretty good at learning the notes my own way, which is slow but steady.

[xjerbearx]

With the piano it is easy to produce the sound, unlike the violin or guitar for instance. With the piano you can produce the sound simply by pressing down the keys. But because the piano can easily produce its sound it then has countless other effects you can do with it, much more so than what you can find on the guitar. When you do something not completely right on the guitar the strings make a funny sound, you notice you are wrong immediately, but with the piano, you can do something wrong and not notice it at all. That subtle part of piano playing is what makes it a lot harder instrument to play correctly.

Coordination and technical issues at at the piano also overshadow any other instrument in my opinion. Of course people can learn general piano playing, LH support vs RH melody, but you can only go so far with this style of music.

It is important, as with learning all instruments, to work at an efficient rate. Too many people try to learn their music with brute force, tirelessly repeating passages with little thought. Sometimes this ability to think as we practice needs to be shown to us before we can understand it. The logic behind learning keyboard music with BH is certainly unique amongst all instrument and is much more detailed than what you would face with other instruments.

Oh, i see what you mean. Sorry for being so defensive >.<"
I guess i shouldn't compare guitar to piano =P
Regarding moonbat's comment, I'm learning the easier version, kylelandry's version is just too insane =P, and I'm beginning to notice learning the song is getting easier, i'm a bit of a perfectionist and tend to make sure everything is on time and sounding smooth.
Regarding hemlock's comment, I feel perfectly comfortable with the instrument and I really don't have any problems with my wrist hurting or anything o.o
About the teacher issue, I'm still determined to learn by myself, sorry for being ignorant =P
Annd lostinidlewonder, thanks for pointing out that the practice method for the guitar is different than the piano, Is there anyway you can show me the correct practice method or do you know if any site has the correct practice method? I don't know if I am practicing the right way or not, but can you help me with, by pointing it out.
This is my method:
1) Practice both hands separately naming every note in my head as i play it (learn by phase)
2) Put both hands together (very slowly)
3) Practice with both hands until i get it right
4) Play the whole song until i finish the last bar i practiced to make sure it's all smooth
5) Repeat =P

[alysosha]

Just in terms of self teaching if you're goal is learn contemporary styles or jazz i think you're much more likley to be sucessful as technique doesn't need to be as refined for these styles. If you're trying to develop as a classical pianist you will need a teacher. It really is hopeless to try to teach yourself and you only find you have wasted years of hard practice when you finally decide that you do need some of guidence.

[gyzzzmo]

The funny thing about self-taught and teachers is that usually you dont realise the big flaws in your playing until you get a teacher pointing them out.

[xjerbearx]

I really don't know the difference between classical or contemporary, but all i know is that i love playing music thats similiar to Hikari (pop genre), especially video game songs, so i don't think i'll be going near classical music like Handel or Vivaldi.
All i really wanted to know is that over time and constant practice would my hands develop independence?
I tried using some piano books i have specifically ABC of piano playing by Boris Berlin, and i flew through them easily in an hour.

[antichrist]

I really don't know the difference between classical or contemporary, but all i know is that i love playing music thats similiar to Hikari (pop genre), especially video game songs, so i don't think i'll be going near classical music like Handel or Vivaldi.
All i really wanted to know is that over time and constant practice would my hands develop independence?
I tried using some piano books i have specifically ABC of piano playing by Boris Berlin, and i flew through them easily in an hour.

You won't go near Handel or Vivaldi if ur playing piano,they mainly are not piano composers
but you should just practise and figure out how to play piano urself,video game songs won't be too hard

[xjerbearx]

Oh, i guess they don't do that...
So im guessing it comes naturally after practicing a lot over time.

[brian_s]

Hope I'm not too late with this, but I thought I'd make a small contribution to the discussion about whether you would benefit from a few piano lessons. It might seem as if everyone's ganging up on you and insisting you take at least a few lessons ... but lessons really do help to concentrate your mind.

I've recently come back to playing after a long lay-off and thought I'd be able to pick up where I left off without any more lessons. But I'm slowly beginning to realise I need the expertise of a good teacher to highlight strengths and weaknesses and give examples of what I should be doing and how I should be doing it.

One of the most useful things that happened the last time I signed up for a few lessons was just being able to watch my teacher play a piece of music I really liked. I immediately knew where I was going wrong and what I needed to do to put things right. He also pointed out a few other mistakes I was making that I wasn't even aware of. 

So, with his guidance, I knew what I had to do to solve the problems and I could easily identify improvements in my playing. It worked so well, I stayed on for several additional semesters of lessons. Sadly, I rather doubt he'll still be with us, but I think I've decided that I need to find another teacher as good as he was to give me a helping hand with my playing now.

Anyway, hope these few meandering burblings help.

brian_s