Beethoven - Sonata in E, Op 109 - Complete

[perfect_pitch]

Okay... People may have seen some of the pieces I'm learning in my signature, and it's about bloody time I started uploading some 'works in progress'. I present Beethovens Sonata in E, Op 109 which is one of his later sonatas yada yada yada... I won't bore you with the details, but if anyone has the time or has played it - I would like their views on how I'm doing so far.

I currently have 4 months to try and perfect it before I am to have a master class with some serbian pianist or something, someone I've never heard of... but I don't want to disappoint as well. I have a further 5 months after that till my exam is scheduled.

Mov 1

Mov 2

Mov 3 (Theme & Variations 1 - 4)

Mov 3 (Variations 5 & 6)

I know it ain't perfect and the slips in memory are things I can fix, however - pedalling ideas, dynamic problems etc... can you let me know how I'm doing so far.

[furtwaengler]

Oh, thank you for this! Here are some thoughts after watching your fine performance (sans score).

First Movement. Extraordinarily clean and balanced; excellent poise; it breaths well. Your pedaling fits the the sublime nature of what is late Beethoven, and for the most part clear voicing as in the string quartets (I have a pet peave about the quarters really sounding at the opening of the first movement, which is clearly a matter of taste. Elsewhere in the movement these a brought out to great effect).

Second Movement. Probably there is some grading of dynamics which is lost in the recording process. This Beethoven will allow for a great range, and you could use louder louds and softer softs...but especially hushed softs, as if muted strings, as if silent ghosts in the background of a stormy night (I'm trying to think of some way of expressing this). All in all this movement is a bit too careful, *maybe* careful in tempo (note the marking), but surely careful in mood...there really can be some terror about it, and part of that is involved in putting it all on the line, risking everything. Really that *maybe* is there because I have no problem with your chosen tempo, where a certain power, majesty, and drama can easily reside; but right now I feel it is missing the whispers, missing the screams. In this structure there is a balance to be kept in the different grades of dynamics, that all the expression must be kept in the bounds of that given grade at that given time (which also allows the marked crescendos, especially the two huge ones more drama for the contrast), and then there is a sort of curve to the structure, that when the theme reappears in the left hand, it ought to be of an emphatic wildness that is much greater then it's first appearance at the start, with everything else leading to that moment, or better said, *defined* by that moment. I hope I'm communicating this adequately. But oh my! My hat's off to you for your extraordinary finger work when in the absence of the pedal. There is surely a level of trust that you have attained to be able to bring this off as wonderfully as you do!

Last movement. There is an elegant simplicity to your presentation of the theme in the finale, and a beautiful singing line, a masterful start to that road into heaven. In the first variation, I could wish for more pain (the good kind) in the dissonances...you know, just love them more. The 2nd I think of a separation of voices. I don't think you have to do anything different, I'm just stating what I think. I love your contrast and your harmonic sense in the duet (if it can be called a duet..the stacking line. My score's out in the car anyway). Into variation 3, are you making a metric tempo shift? I like that, but think it can come off with a greater burst of joy. Great fingers! Do you have two right hands? And the 4th variation...just beautiful. I think in general the comment of more pain in the dissonances can be in effect, but here there is another rise in tension, which cannot be expressed by tempo, or dynamics, but maybe the breath of the phrase (I don't know how to explain it...but a glorious rise in tension leading to 5). All this contrapuntal stuff in variation 5, I wonder if it is too much legato, or the notes are too long, especially considering what's coming...that arrival into heaven with that true long line. And at this dawning of the morning, and rising of the eternal son, you may let it all loose, don't hold back an ounce, give everything you've got. I think of almost Wagneresque climaxes, just shattering. At the recap of the theme I should have no choice but to have tears streaming down my face, and right now my eyes are all too dry. So it is the dramatic heights, the journey to the sublime that is missing. All the notes are there in the right place; this then is the next step.

Oh but you're doing such a wonderful job, and I must award your excellence and thank you from the bottom of my heart for devoting the time to learn this masterpiece. I heard also that bit of your Bach, from his most beautiful of Partitas. I know your program is of monstrous difficulty, but the music itself - all of it...could you ask for anything more? What amazing pieces you are playing!

And I see your shoes which are very similar to mine. Mine are white and blue New Balance 621.

All the best,

Dave

[perfect_pitch]

Wow - thanks for the notes... Quite helpful. I'm grateful for all your help.

I wanted to post this since my teacher is on holiday now and I've got the next 5 weeks to practice and to get a little more clarity and try and work out the kinks.

Right now - the 2nd movement definately is NOT up to speed, but I'm hoping to get it up there for April, and the iPhone sadly enough isn't the greatest recording equipment to do it with, but it's handy for rough drafts or work in progresses.

[prongated]

...this is an interesting rendition of a most wonderful sonata...
...my preferences are different, however so take it for what it's worth.

1st movt.
I find this too slow. Sure, ma non troppo, but vivace. The adagio can also have more movement and direction in terms of where phrases go.
You need to pay closer attention to dynamics too I find. The RH chords in the build up towards the recapitulation is marked sfp each time. You did the sf's, but never the p. If you do this, you will have more scope to make a big crescendo towards the recapitulation.
You also need to commit to dynamics more in that first line of the recapitulation. You tailed off right at the end! In a strictly classical composition like Mozart, this is the norm indeed, but not in Beethoven! In fact, Schnabel even wrote down f for the last 2 notes of the LH there - for good reasons!
Speaking of commitment, I find that in the Adagio you often anticipate ahead. As a result, the surprises are gone because you've smoothed out the sudden dynamic changes. So, if it says crescendo, keep doing a crescendo as if it is leading to f! If it says f, keep it at f until you have to suddenly change to p. And if it is p, keep it beautiful and singing until it says f, at which point you return to being more aggressive.

2nd movt.
No ritards at the end of fast passages - but I think it happened in the recording because you're still learning it?
Anyway, I'm not sure how well your iPhone captures the sound, so if you changed the tone colour when the music shifted to C major in the middle section, good on you! If not, do it!
In fact, once you get the notes down, I'd recommend you explore tone colour more. There's quite a lot of scope for you to do this - for instance, when it drops down to p, you can play around with how much you want to articulate the notes (perhaps you want to drop the agitation and excitement a little, and so you articulate less).
And a similar point about dynamic changes - in Beethoven, commit to a particular dynamic instruction until he tells you otherwise.

Also...

All in all this movement is a bit too careful, *maybe* careful in tempo (note the marking), but surely careful in mood...there really can be some terror about it, and part of that is involved in putting it all on the line, risking everything. Really that *maybe* is there because I have no problem with your chosen tempo, where a certain power, majesty, and drama can easily reside; but right now I feel it is missing the whispers, missing the screams. In this structure there is a balance to be kept in the different grades of dynamics, that all the expression must be kept in the bounds of that given grade at that given time (which also allows the marked crescendos, especially the two huge ones more drama for the contrast), and then there is a sort of curve to the structure, that when the theme reappears in the left hand, it ought to be of an emphatic wildness that is much greater then it's first appearance at the start, with everything else leading to that moment, or better said, *defined* by that moment.

I very much agree with the essence of what is said here.
Finally, be careful with note values at the end. 11 bars before the end - that E octaves is so short! And be sure to differentiate between the last 8 bars and the last 2 bars - dotted crotchets and crotchets (quarter notes).

3rd movt.
My favourite movement! And you know, it's amazing to see how much you move in this slow movement! But kudos to you, you managed to keep it steady! Even so, why not try, instead of getting yourself in the moment, enjoying and feeling the music, listening intently to what you are doing - the sound quality for instance.
I also believe that this is probably one of those music that really is personal, so I won't comment much here.
I think that you should explore more of the tone colour changes that are possible in this music. This is especially vital in the 2nd variation (when you lead from the staccato section into the legato part is a perfect spot) and the 4th variation (by the way, I don't hear a difference between p and pp there).
I like the 3rd movt. faster actually - then the contrast with the next variation is more pronounced (between agitation and joy, and peace)
5th variation you need to start strong and with conviction. Also, the 2nd time the 2nd part comes around it is immediately p (you played p only after you played the first note of the bar). And then, it is sempre p.
6th variation...you know it is sempre legato right? You need to pedal better. And you seem rather tense here - if you loosen up your arms, you may find the trills easier to execute and the melody more seamlessly connected.
A point for debate - when it moves to 9/8, I think you need to keep 1/8 notes as exactly 1/8.
Also, may I ask why you took off the pedal for that ascending passage between when the trills move from LH to RH? I'd keep the pedal down there - maybe not all the way, and I'd probably half-pedal, but I'd definitely try to catch some of the resonance from the previous part.

Overall...well, not an easy piece huh? Although then again, Petrushka and Brahms/Pag are killers...
Anyway, you've got the notes down - that's a start. You've got some nice ideas - great - and you've got some that are I think inconsistent with the way Beethoven should be played. Perhaps you may like to listen to some great performances of this sonata - or any other sonata, following the score either way - and listen to the way they approach dynamics and phrasing.
All the best with your preparation, and happy holidays!

[btw...may I ask who this Serbian pianist is? Also, what piano did you play on there?]

[perfect_pitch]

Hey Prongated... thanks for the advice. I think the hard thing is trying to stay fresh-minded about these pieces and to still muster the energy to look upon them as I did 9 months ago when I started.

Wouldn't have a clue who the serbian pianist is, but he's going to be in Western Australia some time in late April and the Piano was a Yamaha C5 Grand piano.

[perfect_pitch]

Hey - I have got some info about the pianist I'm having a Masterclass with. His name is Dorian Leljak... (from Wikipedia)

Dorian Leljak is a Serbian pianist holding a professorship at the Academy of Arts in Novi Sad, where he was trained under Arbo Valdma, and the presidence of the European Piano Teachers Association's Vojvodina branch. Leljak is to serve as a juror at the XVIII Cleveland International Piano Competition.

Sounds like a decent guy and he's going to be here in early May.

[go12_3]

This is interesing....I can't listen to any of these recordings,
click to play and then I get this little message on a black background :

"Embedding disabled by request Watch On You Tube"

I never had this problem before in PS, whereas I listened to recordings before with
no problem. 

[perfect_pitch]

"Embedding disabled by request Watch On You Tube"

I never had this problem before in PS, whereas I listened to recordings before with
no problem. 

Okay... I don't know why that's happening. I'll try fiddling with the settings to see if I can figure out what the problem is.

[perfect_pitch]

Okay Guys - here is a recording I did for a little class my teacher holds even couple of months...

The audio quality is a bit better (recorded on my iPhone from a distance) and I would greatly appreciate any feedback on my playing...

I don't mind negative feedback as long as it's backed with ways to improve it...

[perfect_pitch]

Hey Guys - sorry to bump this thread. I'm thinking of entering a piano competition in a couple of years, and right now my piano teacher is unavailable for a while, as she moves house.

I'm hoping to refine the Beethoven piece once again for it, so I wanted to upload it again and get some advice on it. No matter if it's big or small - please let me know what you think of the first movement of this piece.



EDIT: Can we STILL not upload any attachments??? I've had three errors now trying to upload my practice.

[emill]

Hi p_p !!

Will never pretend I could give any advice but just posting to tell you
that you seem to have figured out the Beethoven touch. Enjoyed your playing!
Good luck to that masterclass.

emill

[perfect_pitch]

Let's try this again...