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Sigismond Thalberg’s 200th Anniversary

The recent anniversaries of Chopin and Schumann in 2010 and Franz Liszt in 2011 inspire us to once again travel back in time and set focus on another tremendously important, yet almost forgotten virtuoso pianist from this golden era of pianism: Sigismond Thalberg. Read more >>

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Author Topic: New website with complete Bach WTP II, Haydn Sonatas, Liszt Studies etc.  (Read 9847 times)
Steffen Fahl
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« on: January 01, 2010, 04:53:27 PM »

Hi I'm new here and just want to introduce me here with my brandnew Music-Homepage
 klassik-resampled
with thousands of minutes of mp3-recordings I produced in the last 5 Years with several high quality sample Libraries, to proof, wether they can meet the musical demands of reasonable classical interpretations. You find there my main projects of the last years:

1) J.S. Bach Welltempered Piano II with a sampled Steinway D I have recorded 2005

2) The complete Haydn Pianosonatas with a sampled Steinway D and with a sampled Walther Pianoforte (sampled by Malcolm Bilsen) I have recorded seperatly for both instruments in 2006

3) The complete Liszt Studies with a sampled Boesendorfer Imperial I have recorded 2007

(By Copyright reasons I was not able to publish also my Messiaen complete "Vingt regards sur l'Enfant Jesus" Project on a sampled Fazioli 380 from 2008 ...if pianostreet is interested it might be perhaps possible to publish it or at least some of its Pieces in the Audition room here)

Beside those three main projects you will also find more than 60 recordings of music for Piano, Pianochambermusic, Piano and Orchestra and a variety of historical keyboards (and very few recordings without piano) which i produced in the last years as Demos mostly for Producers of high-Quality Pianosamplelibraries. I dont name here any of them, because I have no advertismentintentions for any of them here.
I just want to share what I have worked on the last years and am curious, what you think about the project to use modern technology to realize such traditional musical Intentions.
best fahl5
P.S.: Since I dont trust that much in my english wording, I would be glad and thankful for any hint, that might improve the english expression of the english texts of my bilingual site.
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thalbergmad
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2010, 06:13:25 PM »

I must say I completely fail to see the point.

Thal
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Bob
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2010, 06:18:54 PM »

I didn't quite understand what it was.
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Steffen Fahl
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2010, 06:29:28 PM »

It is just a Webpage, where you can listen my interpretations of the whole Welltempered Piano, the complete Sonatas of Joseph Haydn and the complete Liszt Studies and several other pieces, which I have recorded with sampled instruments.
Perhaps you have to visit the mentioned website (what you didnt do yet) to know what you are talking about the adress of the site is:
sf-media.12hp.de
best
fahl5
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thalbergmad
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2010, 08:14:39 PM »

I did visit the website before i made my last comment and i have now visited it again, but i still do not see the point.

Thal
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john11inc
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2010, 08:28:14 PM »

Unless the rules have changed you're allowed to upload the Messiaen to the audition room here.
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Bob
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2010, 08:30:06 PM »

Lost my post...

Is it your interpretation but using a computer to realize the sound?  Did you tweak it much, or is it the computer playing through a score?
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ronde_des_sylphes
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« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2010, 08:53:17 PM »

Listened to the Liszt Vision and Chasse Neige as I know them pretty well. It's a worthy project, but sadly I don't think the digital output has nearly enough subtleties of rubato, pedalling or sonority to be competitive against a good concert pianist.
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thalbergmad
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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2010, 09:04:20 PM »

Surely this would be more worthwhile if music that were rarely or never recorded was used.

Thal
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ronde_des_sylphes
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2010, 09:14:21 PM »

Surely this would be more worthwhile if music that were rarely or never recorded was used.

Normally I would agree with you, but..

Hi I'm new here and just want to introduce me here with my brandnew Music-Homepage sf-media.12hp.de with thousends of minutes of mp3-recordings I produced in the last 5 Years with several high quality sample Libraries, to proof, wether they can meet the musical demands of reasonable classical interpretations.

I assume the purpose is to get us to assess how it compares in relation to known existing interpretations.
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thalbergmad
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« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2010, 10:24:44 PM »

Oh, I see, but surely it is not going to.

Thal
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richard black
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« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2010, 11:08:05 PM »

Well, I sampled one each of Bach, Haydn and Liszt. You asked, so here's my honest assessment.

Most immediately obvious is that the sound quality is very poor. The Liszt is badly overmodulated so it distorts in loud passages. The Bach and Haydn have very bad modulation noise and the Haydn also has been encoded as MP3 with a faulty encoder. So that makes further analysis difficult, but it still seems possible to be pretty sure about the following:

The sound of the instruments is typical of a medium-grade synthesiser, which is after all what you're using. It sounds vaguely-piano-like but that's about it.

And the performances are very, very dull. Most of all there's a lack of rhythmic/dynamic 'snap' to the playing which makes it very lifeless. That may very well be in part because you're playing on an electronic keyboard rather than a piano and so the feedback that pianists rely on rather heavily, between fingers, ears and brain, is upset - I'm quite prepared to believe that you're a much better pianist on a real piano. But as it stands, the website serves merely to confirm the suspicions of a lot of people (including me) that synthesisers of all kinds are a pretty feeble substitute for a piano in the interpretation of music originally written for piano, despite their obvious attractions for other purposes and specific needs.
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Steffen Fahl
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« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 10:02:31 AM »

OOps thats much to reply...
First let me thank you all for your vivid reaction.
Now some points in detail:
Bob:
As it is stated on the startside the complete recordings were all practiced traditionally and played live on a midikeyboard. After that I took month to musically adjust those Interpretations musically with the means of editing the mididata. Meanwhile the orchestral and ensemble pieces are all completly programmed partitions. What means first I've transkribed the Partitions into raw mididata. Than I edited the mididata the same way as I've done with my pianointerpretations to form the dynamical and tempo and articulation variations which only could make the pure sequence of singlenotes to a reasonable musical Idea.

ronde-de-sylphe:
Here you are obviously not informed abot the musical abilities of the current midistandard. The temporegulation is able to the most extreme as to the most subtle tempovariations listen for instance my interpretation of the Field Nocturne in the section with music for historic Keyboards of the 19th century http://www.sf-media.12hp.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=213%3Afield-nocturne-c-maj&catid=15%3A19th-century&Itemid=6&lang=en or Anitras Dance for strings: http://www.sf-media.12hp.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54%3Agrieg-anitras-tanz&catid=7%3Aorchestras&Itemid=4&lang=en.
But I dont intend to use rubato that strongly in every kind of music, as I also dont when I play pieces live.

To thalberg:
I totally agree with you that it is a worthy task to bring music to the ears that is not played otherwise. If you have searched a bit on my site there are already quite a couple of unknown Pices of unknown composers(Benda, Moschelez, Field, Reinecke, Clara Schuman, Josef Anton Stefan, Henri Litolff, some pieces are even programmed right from the manusscript of never before recorded pieces like the two recordings of Robert Kahn. But my general concept in exploring this technic was, first to train myself with the classical Standards, before appliying the technic.

to Richard Black:
Even if I admit that the recordingquality of my first projects reflect some lack of experience in respect to the mastering of the recordings and it is true that there was a encoding problem for several of the Walther-Piano Haydn Sonatas, which I am am actually occupied to fix, this doesnt sound quit fair, on one Hand, I think most of you could problemless musically judge and enjoy historic recordings of great pianists with much more awful acoustic quality on the other hand you are absolutly wrong with your judgement of a "medium grade syntheziser" which is absoltly not  at all what is used here. Instead all recordings are using high quality and awrard winnig samplelibraries which are market leading in their field. More likely your judgement seems to reveal a general rejection of the Use of modern technology in the realization of traditional music. This seems to me quite common for many of the traditional musiclisteners of all times, meanwhile the creative masters everytime were deeply inspired by the new technical means of their time, wether it was the new tuning for Bach, the Pianos for Mozart and Beethoven, the new Brass instruments for romantic Orchestracomposers, or the the possibilities of studiorecording for classical interprets like Karajan and Glenn Gould which are so common today, that no one asked anymore how many takes and fixes a certain recording has needed, to become what we estime as Masterinterpretation. Without claiming any genius like those  masters for my poor attempts, I still hold it worth to go on with our time like they did. This is the only purpose of what my Website is all about.
best
fahl5
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richard black
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2010, 11:14:55 AM »

Quote
I think most of you could problemless musically judge and enjoy historic recordings of great pianists with much more awful acoustic quality

Yes, but you can't tell very much about the qualities of the _piano_ they play, certainly on acoustic recordings. You're asking us to judge the quality of the instrument you're playing on what are really inexcusably bad recordings.

The mere fact that you're using MIDI limits the performance of the synth to 'medium-grade', no matter how clever the sampling may have been.
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« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2010, 01:30:34 PM »

You're asking us to judge the quality of the instrument you're playing on what are really inexcusably bad recordings.
This seems to me quite a harsh judgement for a product that has gained a lot of international awards and positive reviews in the musical world. But perhaps all those specialists just dont have the musical insight and understanding you have. 
Quote
The mere fact that you're using MIDI limits the performance of the synth to 'medium-grade', no matter how clever the sampling may have been.
Once more while talking serious about midi, one should be able to make a difference between a "syntheziser" and "samplelibraries".
On the other hand seems your understanding of the "midistandard" perhaps a bit mislead by the cheap midifiles that were used some years ago as cellphone ringtone.
Sorry, but the technical abilities of musical detailed editing of the midistandard exceeds by far that what any human being can just control with his fingers. The problem is more that you still need the musical conception of the Piece as a whole on which you are working on, to decide how it will be edited reasonable.

I tried to realize musical reasonable conceptions of the pieces I recorded that way. Therefor I would be glad if you like to criticise my attempts in a musical concrete way, which would be much more inspiring and interesting to me than just stating how awful synthezisers and midiringtones are.
best
Steffen
best
Steffen
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« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2010, 02:59:40 PM »

This seems to me quite a harsh judgement for a product that has gained a lot of international awards and positive reviews in the musical world.

I would be interested in reading more about these awards and positive reviews.
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« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2010, 03:20:43 PM »

I would be interested in reading more about these awards and positive reviews.
I hesitated to name any company here, not to be misunderstood as hidden ad. But since you ask for I prefer to give you Links to the lists of awards and reviews of each used Pianosamplelibrarieproducer (not to focus any of them):
http://www.realsamples.de/
http://synthogy.com/news/announcements.html
http://vsl.co.at/en/65/71/263/132.vsl
http://www.soundsonline.com/product.php?productid=EW-171
I hope that might be enough to check the Reviews and Awards I am talking about.
best
Steffen
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« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2010, 04:58:03 PM »

I think it really needs comments/endorsement from pianists or musicians from the classical World.

Thal
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« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2010, 05:40:58 PM »

I think it really needs comments/endorsement from pianists or musicians from the classical World.

Thal
why?
Steffen
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thalbergmad
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« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2010, 06:29:38 PM »

Because people used to years of the real thing would have a better idea as to the programmes accuracy.
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Steffen Fahl
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« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2010, 06:56:17 PM »

Because people used to years of the real thing would have a better idea as to the programmes accuracy.
Oh where did you learn that the Jury of the mipa Award from the Musikmesse Frankfurt for instance just are not "used to years of the real thing"?

But is'nt it at bit boring the endless discussion about the "real thing" which in reality doesn't real exist, since wooden pianos are that sensible, that they dont have any certain defined "real sound" at all, because they change their sound already after several hours of intense use or changes in humidty etc.

Even with best maintanance no one could hardly keep any woodden grandpiano sound the same for years of usage. So the "reality" might be beautiful but it is mostly more deficient in their sound than any sentimental glorification can wipe out of your ears.

That in mind be at least as tolerant for the deficiencies a modern technic may show in the time of their development, as you are ready to have for the "real" thing, which is never the "ideal" thing, if it is realy the real thing.
(...funny philosophy, ha?)

And if I must confess that the sound which speaks to your soul, cant be argued anyway, since it is finally a matter of personal taste, I just enjoy to work with thoses modern technics since I hear quite alot beautiful things I personally like. Thats why I share it here.

best Steffen
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thalbergmad
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« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2010, 08:26:34 PM »

Oh where did you learn that the Jury of the mipa Award from the Musikmesse Frankfurt for instance just are not "used to years of the real thing"?

I didn't, but from what I can glean from the internet, the show seems to be geared towards electronic music, so you will have to forgive me if i have my doubts. I certainly do not want to hear the results of any products that did not win any awards.

Thal
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« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2010, 08:49:40 PM »

I certainly do not want to hear the results of any products that did not win any awards.

Thal
Great, now I understand, why you asked to know more about the reviews and awards, which I just mentioned to help imagine, that there are also some other people out there, who have ears to,  also can musically judge to what they hear and even are trusted by others for doing so -  even if they don't condem modern technic at all.

I myself actually prefere, to like things before they get awards and good reviews from elsewhrere ;-)

best
Steffen
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« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2010, 09:00:16 PM »

I don't understand how the fact that a digital instrument has the same sound over a long period of time and usage is immedately synonym of being ideal or best. Perhaps that is the precise reason why they are regarded as to have 'no soul' compared to a real piano, because that flawlessness is a characteristic of machines. All those subtle changes happen everywhere from guitars and timpani to violins and basoons, and I don't think it interfeers one bit with the quality of interpretation or musicality. I can see several advanteges of digital pianos over the real thing but they're mostly commodities, and I don't consider the sound to be one of them.
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« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2010, 10:01:43 PM »

I don't understand how the fact that a digital instrument has the same sound over a long period of time and usage is immedately synonym of being ideal or best.
I don't understand that synonym to let me know, who ever thought anything that strange.

Instead I especially like the fact, that good samplesets reflect the richness and variability of Pianocolours only the most expensive Grandpiano usally may contribute. Nothing is more awful than cheap samplesets or old pianos that didnt leave any chance of colormodulation.
best
Steffen
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2010, 10:13:56 PM »

I have listened to a few examples, but cannot take any more of this plastic sound.

If this is technology at its best, then God help us.

Obviously, this is only my ears response and perhaps some people on here will like it.

Thal
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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2010, 02:06:22 AM »

I have listened to a few examples, but cannot take any more of this plastic sound.

If this is technology at its best, then God help us.

Don't worry Thal - the acoustic Grand pianos will always exceed the quality of anything digital.
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2010, 03:17:04 AM »

I can see application of these MIDI style recordings, for instance as demos to show the capabilities of a digital piano. To those with very little listening experience they might not know which one is better, the computerized version or the real one. Those with some experience will be able to sense the clinical, artificial and irritating evenness of notes that computers always play with. I can play phrases and even miss a note or two and it will sound better than a computer playing all the notes. Computers like that exactness and they thrive on it, but the musical expression and variation of touch that the human hands can produce, a computer will only ever be able to repeat what you tell it to do, it cannot touch into that realms of piano playing.

After a minute or two of listening to the piano recordings I have personally had enough, it annoys me (the orchestrations and other instruments are easier to listen to like Gold Lillying was pretty cool), the playing is overall too harsh, it sounds like the hammers are wacking into the strings constantly, no sense of touch.
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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2010, 04:09:41 AM »

Here you are obviously not informed abot the musical abilities of the current midistandard. The temporegulation is able to the most extreme as to the most subtle tempovariations

If that is so, then, I'm sorry to say, you are definitely not using it to anywhere near its "musical abilities". The Campanella has so much strange sudden tempo changes and unnatural rubatos it's obvious it's been (badly) programmed...which may not be the only problem it has, but unfortunately 1 minute is about all I can bear listening to it...sorry...
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2010, 06:16:59 AM »

OK,
Enough idiology so far, lets become concrete and play:  which one is
- "the one and only real perfect imperfect and soulful" and which
- the alledged "help us god: awfully liveless computerized, colourless medium grade synthezised" sampled instrument?

1) Bach WTC II C-Maj:
- Prel+Fuge Bachtest I
- Prel: Bachtest IIa
- Fuge: Bachtest IIb

2) Haydn Hob.48 Andante con espressione
- Haydn Test I
- Haydn Test II
- Haydn Test III
 
3) Liszt
- Liszt Test I
- Liszt Test II

4) Pierné Etude de Concert you will find both versions there:
http://www.moinillon.net/post/2009/06/27/Toon-Staelens-joue-Gabriel-Pierne
best
Steffen
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2010, 10:13:32 AM »

Test I in the Bach Human, test II computer, test IIb computer. btw the Bach I only downloads 15 seconds.

In the Haydn I+II human, III very computer. You can see the weakness of the computer not understanding how to deal with ornaments (simply plays the notes not blends it like a human would). Also how it artificially controls the volume, I see it in my minds eye as very square waved, where a human is more of a sine wave. It doesn't understand the lightness of the ornaments and how they should be used.

Liszt I is human II is computer.The rolls in the II is funny sounding and the octave playing is very mechanical like. II is also too clean to be human. The playing fits like lego pieces not a beautiful work of art, zero emotion! The un poco rit a capriccio onwards (bar ~84) , is a real joke LH is just harshly staccato and ignoring the leggieramente and even the inner phrasing we can produce from the notes, and thats not even mentioning the grossly artificial eveness LH in that part.Certain parts will sound ok ,like the fff sections but when it comes to more musical devices (the appassionato parts), it fails and it merely plays the technical and in a very technical way Smiley The ending of the piece is a final testament to the voice of a computerize rendition.
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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2010, 10:44:54 AM »

Honestly I listened a few minutes and then considered it to be a waste of time. I better go practice or for a walk.
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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2010, 12:03:08 PM »

OK, your prejudice are trapped,
1) None of them are played by a computer at all. All are practised and recorded on real keys!
2) No word about the obvious problems of thoses recordings you believe being "human"
3) You are even wrong if I should understand your "very computer" meaning "sampled instrument" and "human" as meaning "woodden pianos", since you thought even the cheapest pianosampleset of all as being "human".
If this is musical knowledge...
Quote
at its best, then God help us.
... and I am sure he will  Wink
best
Steffen

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« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2010, 12:32:00 PM »

You are very persistant, but have persuaded nobody. Several posters here with vast amounts of experiance have given you their opinion, but the message does not appear to be getting through.

I must admit i am rather suspicious of your activity as all of your posts have been solely in this thread and I am just waiting for the "sales pitch".

Perhaps a Forum which is more geared to "electronic" music might be more suitable for you.

Thal
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« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2010, 01:09:12 PM »

I must admit i am rather suspicious of your activity as all of your posts have been solely in this thread and I am just waiting for the "sales pitch".
OK, that is really to much!

Check my personal site, which you can find linked to the startsite of my musicpage and you will find, that I dont have really anything to do with selling anything, and never ever did, nor I did with my site which is build on two free servers and has not the least connection to any kind of business.

So you will even hardly find any kind of contactoption on my whole musicsite except the link to the required but still quite hidden "impressum". If you like, you may google hours to find the least hint that I wold sell anything else but an old violin of my parents.

And if you finally proofed that this supicion was absolutly substanceless, blame yourself for trying to get out of a musical discussion like that.

Your right it would make more sense to discuss with people who knew more about the thing they are talking about than just suspicions that are so easy to proof as pure suspicions.
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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2010, 01:27:09 PM »

I am suspicious, as so far your activity on this forum is just on this thread only, that you created yourself.

There are a lot of people on here that do know what they are talking about, but you appear to be struggling with their verdict as it is not in your favour.

If you have nothing further to add of any value, again i suggest that another Forum more geared towards low quality electronic reproductions might be more suitable for you.

Thal
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ronde_des_sylphes
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« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2010, 01:58:17 PM »

ronde-de-sylphe:
Here you are obviously not informed abot the musical abilities of the current midistandard. The temporegulation is able to the most extreme as to the most subtle tempovariations listen for instance my interpretation of the Field Nocturne in the section with music for historic Keyboards of the 19th century http://www.sf-media.12hp.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=213%3Afield-nocturne-c-maj&catid=15%3A19th-century&Itemid=6&lang=en or Anitras Dance for strings: http://www.sf-media.12hp.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54%3Agrieg-anitras-tanz&catid=7%3Aorchestras&Itemid=4&lang=en.
But I dont intend to use rubato that strongly in every kind of music, as I also dont when I play pieces live.

I really don't think whether or not I'm aware of the capabilities of the current midi standard is relevant. The point is that the end result doesn't sound right. If it sounded right, I would be happy to congratulate you on a job well done, but as it is, you have a lot of work to do before it sounds like a "real" concert pianist. For example, I just re-listened to the first two pages of the Liszt Etude "Vision". I'm sure the midi standard allows you to observe Liszt's dynamic markings, but you DON'T. The end result is something that is almost completely devoid of musical expression and sounds thoroughly mechanical. Shaping the groups of ornamental notes and the melodic line via use of more varied dynamics would be a start in the right direction. Then you need to think about subtle usage of rubato to shape phrases. I'm also not convinced by the pedalling, but that's perhaps a matter of taste.
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Steffen Fahl
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« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2010, 02:55:48 PM »

Hi mad Thalberg
Yes, I see that you don't have anything to add of value:
where is lack of interest, there is verdict without reasonable proofs,
Where is lack of knowledge, there is persistant suspicion with out proof and blushing.

And if you cant find any other pretext, it is obviuosly very suspicious, if someone answers in a thread he has opened.
It seems as if you never seen something like answering in a thread before?!

Usably the "high quality" of a forum relies on the knowledge, interest and understanding of its participants, sorry that I had to open this thread to convince me again of this simple truth.
thank you again for that warm and open minded welcome...


Hi ronde_des_sylphes
your last posting rescued at least a bit the standard of the Forum since you at least start to argue musically. Of course I dont claim to be an undoubtable genius of interpretation. But I claim that all music is shaped by my personal interpretation and no product of automatic "computerization" or "medium grade synthezisers", as some poeple here seem to think.

In my conception Interpretation is a dialogue between the partition and the one who realizes the music. In Respect to "Vision" you might have noticed the "pesante" and "simile sempre marcato" beside the over the whole first page dominating Forte. (You wont deny that the small cresc. forkes (is this "<" called like that? ) and harmonic necessities are quite clear dynamcly respected and realized).  You will find the same marcatos on each melodychord on the seconde page. That was  the reason why I understand the piano as hint just to put the before melodic dominating right hand with the accompagniyng arpeggia now in the Backgrond and not to totally change the pesante charater of the melody that metrical corresponds the same way to the bassline as it does in the first page. In pedaling of the first page is just a matter of Liszts tast, since it is noted just the way I did it. The second site has no pedalling advice at all which I think cant be that there would be no Pedal be used, since that woul make all those argeggia  sound totally thin. So I decided to go on with the pedalisation Liszt has noted explicitly for the first page.

But as everywhere, when it comes to understand historic texts I admit there might be other conceptions of the same text that could make sens musically to.

It just would be a pitty, if you would judge hours of totally different music on my site  - (which even lostinidlewonder presumably unwillingly called "human") just from two pages of a Lisztetude you understand in another way than I do.
So at least I hope there are more that dare to discuss musically since I thoght thats what a pianoforum would be about.

best
fahl5
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iroveashe
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« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2010, 03:05:05 PM »

Perhaps you should post your interpretation of one or several of the pieces you have posted here, played on a real piano and let us judge whether what everyone is critisizing comes from interpretation or the instrument itself.
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"By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision."
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Steffen Fahl
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« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2010, 03:18:31 PM »

Perhaps you should post your interpretation of one or several of the pieces you have posted here, played on a real piano and let us judge whether what everyone is critisizing comes from interpretation or the instrument itself.
I am not sure that "everyone" even knows so exactly what "everyone" is critizising, and if "everyone" is critizising realy the same thing beside the fear sampled instruments might change the world of music in a way a just traditional practising pianist is no longer able to follow. Just the fact that my side is not about electronic music, but just about music seems to be provocating for some more traditional minded musicians.
As I have seen in the comparison the critics were just used to support a fixed prejudice and anyone here seems open minded enough to critizise all Problems except thoses that are meant to justify the so called
Quote
"final testament to the voice of a computerize rendition."
. Even if they unwillingly support just the wrong recordings.
So it's just a bit like talking with bricks.

best Steffen
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iroveashe
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« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2010, 03:33:50 PM »

I have prejudice against digital pianos for a very good reason, I have tried some, both from low and high prices, and while the sound is not that bad, and they had some useful features, the experience of playing one as a whole does not compare in the least to a real piano, even if I have to do with a vertical piano; and the listening experience is not the same either, and I can tell you that before actually trying them out I barely had anything against them at all, it wasn't until I actually sat and played some that I was turned off by them. I'm assuming most of the rest of the people who posted here are in a similar place, and yes, they are critisizing the same thing, which it is:

Hi I'm new here and just want to introduce me here with my brandnew Music-Homepage sf-media.12hp.de with thousends of minutes of mp3-recordings I produced in the last 5 Years with several high quality sample Libraries, to proof, wether they can meet the musical demands of reasonable classical interpretations.
No, they can't.
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perfect_pitch
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« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2010, 03:38:41 PM »

Out of curiosity Fahl5... Do you actually play piano???

I only ask since that if you actually don't know sh*t about playing piano, then I feel your testimony to this stuff may seem a little prejudiced in the first place.

Most of the people criticise the digital software synthesizer program because sadly enough - when it comes to humans vs computers in an attempt to pass off music - Humans win... by a LONG SHOT and computers will never ever beat the sound of an acoustic piano simply because... digital software is continually trying to imitate the acoustic piano - it cannot exceed it since it aims only to be as good as it.

And so far it ain't doing too well. I am open minded to the prospect of people trying to imitate the piano using digital synthesizers, since I sometimes use them to do drafts of some of my compositions... but most of them aren't even close to the real thing.

Sorry man - People may 'seem' prejudiced, but thats because so far nothing digital has impressed them.
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ronde_des_sylphes
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« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2010, 03:53:21 PM »

Hi ronde_des_sylphes
your last posting rescued at least a bit the standard of the Forum since you at least start to argue musically. Of course I dont claim to be an undoubtable genius of interpretation. But I claim that all music is shaped by my personal interpretation and no product of automatic "computerization" or "medium grade synthezisers", as some poeple here seem to think.

In my conception Interpretation is a dialogue between the partition and the one who realizes the music. In Respect to "Vision" you might have noticed the "pesante" and "simile sempre marcato" beside the over the whole first page dominating Forte. (You wont deny that the small cresc. forkes (is this "<" called like that? ) and harmonic necessities are quite clear dynamcly respected and realized).  You will find the same marcatos on each melodychord on the seconde page. That was  the reason why I understand the piano as hint just to put the before melodic dominating right hand with the accompagniyng arpeggia now in the Backgrond and not to totally change the pesante charater of the melody that metrical corresponds the same way to the bassline as it does in the first page. In pedaling of the first page is just a matter of Liszts tast, since it is noted just the way I did it. The second site has no pedalling advice at all which I think cant be that there would be no Pedal be used, since that woul make all those argeggia  sound totally thin. So I decided to go on with the pedalisation Liszt has noted explicitly for the first page.

But as everywhere, when it comes to understand historic texts I admit there might be other conceptions of the same text that could make sens musically to.

It just would be a pitty, if you would judge hours of totally different music on my site  - (which even lostinidlewonder presumably unwillingly called "human") just from two pages of a Lisztetude you understand in another way than I do.
So at least I hope there are more that dare to discuss musically since I thoght thats what a pianoforum would be about.

best
fahl5

Firstly, I made an assessment of two of your Liszt etudes simply because I've had far more experience with Romantic era music than any other era and therefore I think they are the pieces where my opinion is most worthwhile (and most likely to be useful to you.)

Secondly - and my apologies for going on about what is just one piece out of many - I don't agree that the dynamics on the first page of "Vision" are clearly respected and realized. There are no crescendi in your performance at bars 6 and 8, for example. That's just one thing, but what really bothers me is that there is no nuance within the arpeggiated figures. The notes are all played in the same way (and in my opinion are too loud in relation to the pesante melody); surely it would be more interesting and musical if you play them as a murmur which swells beneath the melody (I assume that's why Liszt marks the first arpeggiated figures r.h. leggero with a crescendo and the next bar as simile). Of course you're entitled to interpret the music in whatever way you see fit and I'm not an authority on this, but I suspect there are a lot of subtleties you've not thought about. Such subtleties often, in my experience, make the difference between an interesting performance and a dull one. Ultimately: you can play it your way and I'll play it my way. Wink
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thalbergmad
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« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2010, 04:30:01 PM »


where is lack of interest, there is verdict without reasonable proofs,
Where is lack of knowledge, there is persistant suspicion with out proof and blushing.

Where there is lack of interest, there is usually nothing to be interested about.
Where there is lack of knowledge, there is usually someone unwilling to take on board criticism and learn from it.

The proof is within your boring and amatuer realisations.

I do hope you continue your efforts and eventually come up with something worthwhile.

Thal
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lostinidlewonder
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« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2010, 04:38:30 PM »

OK, your prejudice are trapped,
1) None of them are played by a computer at all. All are practised and recorded on real keys!

I say they are human they are more human than the other samples. If the Liszt I is NOT a human, then the person who wrote the notes did mistakes, cos there are note errors.

Played on real keys but not by humans a computer is spewing out a repetition (or maybe it has recorded a human playing already and someone has messed with a midi to make it more clinically correct). And the ones that do sound human still sound like digital pianos. The thing is, a real piano sounds like a real piano. None of the recordings sound like real pianos. Get your little machines to play on a real piano and we will see immediately what they are worth, you are demonstrating them in a computer medium which they where born in, so of course they will sound somewhat better than if they played on real pianos.

I mean the playing would be interesting and u can put it on the demo on digital pianos Wink Thats all its good for, certainly if you add these to your personal CD collections for constantly listening you need some directions to some human masters of the 88 key keyboard Wink
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Steffen Fahl
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« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2010, 04:52:19 PM »

Hi perfect_pitch (I have my doubts)
Out of curiosity Fahl5... Do you actually play piano???
I only ask since that if you actually don't know sh*t about playing piano, then I feel your testimony to this stuff may seem a little prejudiced in the first place.
Ok again someone who rails before asking - no good style, realy no good style. What ever prejudice you suspect, please become concrete if you could or just let those unqualified fourletter things.

If you are realy interested and not just looking for a chaep pretext to fight the "digital danger", you'll find in the navigation menu of my site a link to my (german) biography (with all links to Infos of the most Prof. whose master- and interpretationcourses I visited while studiyng piano  in austria), and a link to the Wikipedia-article about my last teacher beside the WTC II on my side since I dedicated it him.

The heart of the widely mentioned prejudice against "computers" is that, you obviously have to learn, that no computer has ever made any music at all. Just as I post here as a real human being using my computer and not my Computer allone, no music has ever been made without a human musical intention.
To judge if modern intruments are ready for serious interpretation, one must be able to recognize the problems of traditional instruments and interpretation to, for not loosing your head in a just dogmatic discussion.

Since I am quite well interested and educated in respect to the classic tradition and - like many others today - technical interested aswell, it is my human intention to use all current means to create the music I intend to hear.  
I totally underestimate what a menace and provokation this means for the people of this forum.


Hi ronde de sylphe,
I think I can imagine how you understand Vision, and honestly I first also tend to make it more a preimpressionistic piece as many of Liszts Pianomusic defenitly prefigures the Ideas we are used to hear from Debussy, but the pesante and the massive bass syncops aswell - and I think the Arau interpretaion to- lead me to an other more robust understanding. I can imagine, that it would be irritating, if you are used to youre own presumably more lyrical understanding, but I think there are others of the Etudes which justify Lyricism much more than the in my sunderstanding more triomphal "Vision". I take it in a less schumanian sens of a dreaming visions but  more in the sens of a mighty political vision, as Liszt has expressed them in his writings when he claimed more political power to great musicians.

In respect to the cescendi in Bar 6-+8 they are just simple forks (<) and given the fact that I already follow the Forte and pesante from the beginig I perhaps did'nt exaggerate them that much, but more the > decrescendo-fork of the same bar to mark the cadence.  It great when you play it your way music can only profit from variety. Smiley
best Steffen  

Hi Mad Thalberg
It great that you remain short.
If there is nothing of interest, it is at least astonishing how persistant you paticipate in this discussion without knowing at least a noteworthy part of the music you already fell ready to judge as general as inconcrete.
So if you are not interested don't bother this thread with your persistant  suspiscions
So I hope for you to that if ever you will  come up with something wothwhile in this thread to.
best
Steffen

Hi Lostindlewonder
stupid are just those who can't imagine that pianoworks are realy played on real keys, and stay against any testimony and reason in the prejudice the music on my site is just the result of automatic computarisation
For the last time: "It is not and it took several years I've worked on that repertoire." If you still can't believe, just scan a partition and listen what the resulting midifile will sond like and you know what is the differnts between computermade and the music on my site you self behalf of your good ears judged as "human" music Wink
best Steffen
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lostinidlewonder
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« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2010, 05:03:10 PM »

Hi Lostindlewonder
stupid are just those who can't imagine that pianoworks are realy played on real keys, and stay against any testimony and reason in the prejudice the music on my site is just the result of automatic computarisation
It is nothing amazing that they might be played on real pianos, that is what they call a disk klavier, and it is old tech. You don't seem to understand that just because they might be on real keys that DOES NOT separates it from being computerized music.

For the last time: "It is not and it took several years I've worked on that repertoire."
Congratulations you learnt to play a piano through a digital medium, now stop doing that silliness  and play the piano with your fingers Wink

....you know what is the differnts between computermade and the music on my site you self behalf of your good ears judged as "human" music Wink
Are you saying that there is no difference? That your computer music has become so good that it should be considered human music!? When I said Human I didn't mean 100% human, I mean more human than the other, since you gave me 2 options for the samples, all of the recordings in my opinion would not win any awards for amazing playing! I think some passages are played well, but the majority is played without musical understanding, as simple as that. And if these recordings u gave are all digital renditions, you have note errors in the Liszt I. I would think you wouldn't make those slip ups, or is it really a human? Smiley Or maybe you are trying to trick us, it is really both isn't it!!! ARRRG MY HEAD IS GOING TO EXPLODE!!!! lol



On another point, I would love it if you sampled the entire  Sorabji OC.
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lostinidlewonder
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« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2010, 05:17:04 PM »

It is nothing amazing that they might be played on real pianos, that is what they call a disk klavier, and it is old tech. You don't seem to understand that just because they might be on real keys that DOES NOT separates it from being computerized music.
Congratulations you learnt to play a piano through a digital medium, now stop doing that silliness  and play the piano with your fingers Wink
Are you saying that there is no difference? That your computer music has become so good that it should be considered human music!? When I said Human I didn't mean 100% human, I mean more human than the other, since you gave me 2 options for the samples, all of the recordings in my opinion would not win any awards for amazing playing! I think some passages are played well, but the majority is played without musical understanding, as simple as that. And if these recordings u gave are all digital renditions, you have note errors in the Liszt I. I would think you wouldn't make those slip ups, or is it really a human? Smiley Or maybe you are trying to trick us, it is really both isn't it!!! ARRRG MY HEAD IS GOING TO EXPLODE!!!! lol



On another point, I would love it if you sampled the entire Sorabji OC.
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« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2010, 06:13:35 PM »

I say they are human they are more human than the other samples. If the Liszt I is NOT a human, then the person who wrote the notes did mistakes, cos there are note errors.
Yes this is right there are so awful mistakes that it it must be real. No you were wrong with the Haydn which is much more meaningful since with Haydn you cant hide any musical qestion behind pure Brilliance since his music affords pure interpretation of the music.

Quote
Played on real keys but not by humans a computer
Sorry that is sheer nonsens. Practiced and played on real keys with real fingers or are finger still parts of a computer in your mind?!
Quote
(or maybe it has recorded a human playing already and someone has messed with a midi to make it more clinically correct).

Are you talking about Bach I. ? this one is "real" but not mine and it is awfully stiff and clinical correct, but you don't seem to have any ear for that!

Sorry again, but stop with percentages of musical humanity, you gave the proof, that your ears couldnt recognize the difference between the real thing and the real playing on sampled instruments, just because you are trying to fight your own prejudice.

Befor continuing railing about  not "award winnig" interpretations, just let me hear your last award winning interpretation, that proof your understanding and ability to judge.

The missing mistakes in the Liszt is a very good point to reylize what is already explained on my startsite:
- Of course I have studied traditional Piano and have of course practiced and played since my childhood.
- Ofcourse are all the Liszt Studies are practised over Years and than played as every pianoplayer will do with real finger on real keys.
The only differents to traditional audiorecording is the simple fact, that not the Audiosignals were recorded but the behavior of the Keys I have pressed. That gives another Chance to wipe out playing mistakes,  of course I wiped them out as far they don't contribute to the musical intention.

But that is defenitly the case for some of the difficlties of the Etudes, like Jumps large Chords etc.  The suspected Computer wouldnt know anything about those difficulties each player has if he is trying to to realize thoses Etudes. And it is not really a proof of your musical understanding if you didn't recognized the many fingertechnical caused metrical inegalities. But they belong so totally to the expected appearance of the List Etdes, that you would only recognized it when there are any technical absoltly unrealistic passages only a computer can play.

If you have another impression, name me the concrete part, and I will try to show other examples of traditional interpretations that even were more technically skilled than what you suspect only could be the wok of a computer.

But of course the Etude-recordings on my site are full of fingertechnical but musiocal important metric inegalities, that are important for the musical Idea of the Pieces to show how to cope with extreme technical challenges. So of course I didn't wiped out what makes the charakcteristic of the real playing. thats why I found it extremly important to start from the real played data. Therfor the Etudes are long time practised befor, and sonsequently the recordings they are in no moment faster or technical any more perfect as good pianists could play.

But editing the played mididata after playing,  - thats the only thing what is new about my Liszt Etudes - gives more musically reasonable possibilities to outline what the played Interpretation already intended.  I hope you finally understand that I start from real playing as everyone does playing the piano. There is nothing artificial about the playing and as you can see, there are still more colourless, artificial and more clinical interpretations played on "real pianos" than many of the recodings I have on my site.

In respect to sorabji: I have heard abot his works, but still have another totally undiscovered Pianocycle on more than thousand narrowly written manuscript pages of a late romantic, early 20th century composer which even might be a larger composition than sorabjis works. It wqill be a lifetime work and I hope I will get the chance to do this job since it is not that probable that any one else will do. But your association is not that wrong, since the large Works of Bach, Haydn, Liszt and the unpublished Messiaen are kind of a warmup for what I intend to do when I am ready to.

best
Steffen


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thalbergmad
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« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2010, 06:21:43 PM »

In respect to sorabji: I have heard abot his works, but still have another totally undiscovered Pianocycle on more than thousand narrowly written manuscript pages of a late romantic, early 20th century composer which even might be a larger composition than sorabjis works.

Please enlighten me as to the composer of this undiscovered pianocycle.

Would it not be best to perfect your system with the classics before you start to butcher the Romantics?

Thal
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