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"My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart (Read 22670 times)

Offline ggpianogg

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"My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
« on: January 05, 2010, 10:38:25 AM »
Hi guys,

I've started playing the piano (well, the keyboard) around 3 weeks ago, when I found my sister's old piano which she used to play with for fun at a very young age. Since I always liked the piece Turkish March by Mozart, I decided this would be the first piece I would like to learn.

So far, I'm practicing my right hand, and I've posted a video where hopefully you can see my progress.

I would VERY much appreciate any feedback you guys could give me based on this video. Please keep in mind I do not attend classes so I might have a hard time understanding some of the piano terminology, but with google's help I'll definitely make it :)

The link is here:


Thanks in advance for all your feedback, but I will surely thank you personally as well :)

Offline allthumbs

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #1 on: January 05, 2010, 06:33:30 PM »
Hi guys,

I've started playing the piano (well, the keyboard) around 3 weeks ago, when I found my sister's old piano which she used to play with for fun at a very young age. Since I always liked the song Turkish March by Mozart, I decided this would be the first song I would like to learn.

So far, I'm practicing my right hand, and I've posted a video where hopefully you can see my progress.

I would VERY much appreciate any feedback you guys could give me based on this video. Please keep in mind I do not attend classes so I might have a hard time understanding some of the piano terminology, but with google's help I'll definitely make it :)


Thanks in advance for all your feedback, but I will surely thank you personally as well :)

First thing I would do is google the difference between a 'song' and a 'piece'.

It appears that you have spent the entire 3 weeks working on just the right hand of this piece. I would suggest that HS (hands separate) practice be done once or twice then immediately begin practicing HT (hands together).

Leave the HS practice for the trouble spots where rhythm may be an issue or for some other technical problem to work out.

Otherwise your are wasting your time mastering HS, and you will be only slightly ahead when you start HT.

Or is the real reason that you've done it this way is because you don't have a full keyboard? Another problem you will have if the keyboard doesn't have weighted keys which appears that it doesn't. Get a piano or at least a piano action keyboard with 88 keys.

From looking at your video, I can see that your wrist is very stiff. While you have made some progress with your finger dexterity and independence, I would suggest that you get a teacher to guide you to proper technique before you ingrain too many bad and potentially harmful habits.

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Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #2 on: January 10, 2010, 10:16:20 AM »
Hi there,

Thanks for your post.

That's true, this keyboard doesn't have weighted keys, unfortunately. It's a cheap keyboard my parents got my sister when she was 5 or 6 years old (so around 12 years ago).

Unfortunately, I do not have the funds for a new keyboard nor a teacher at the moment, but this should change in about half a year or so if I play my cards right. I will definitely take your advise then.

As for the stiff wrist - I think this might be because I had to place the keyboard on the ground to record this (there was no way for me to place a camera above the keyboard while it was on the stand), so the very odd angel of my hands caused by me having to play while sitting on the ground might have caused the stiffness, although I can't tell if this is definitely the issue.

Now I think of it, I realize the conditions I have for playing are too poor for me to be able to post questions like the one in this topic, since it's most likely not possible to help me out given everything. So I'll just wait for now :) but thanks anyway!

Offline odd_wanderer

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #3 on: January 10, 2010, 09:36:26 PM »
Wait? Go out and find pianos; I'm sure you can find one somewhere. Churches and schools are often good places. I've only been almost kicked out of one.

Be sure to ask before playing of course. Playing while the choir is attempting to practice on the same stage tends to attract the wrong kind of attention.
"You can lead people to truth, but you can't make them understand it." -Bill Watterson

Offline slow_concert_pianist

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 10:54:30 AM »
If you produced that after your very 1st 3 weeks of playing the piano you are certainly a prodigy better than Mozart. Taking aside the fact you only play the right hand parts and you still do not know the notes, you don't really capture Mozart. Sadly you seem to have fallen into the trap of showing off with "showmanship" rather than understand the music. Currently the trend is to play right notes as fast as possible and all other detail can "go hang" & if we don't know the right notes we'll play the wrong ones just as fast ::). Music also requires dynamics, phrasing, DIRECTION. Each composer offers some je-ne-sais-croit magic qualities. Mozart is no exception. Listen to as many recordings by Gould, Brendel and Barenboim you can lay your hands on and you will start to form an "appreciation" of Mozart.

It will do your current repertoire a power of good.
Currently rehearsing:

Chopin Ballades (all)
Rachmaninov prelude in Bb Op 23 No 2
Mozart A minor sonata K310
Prokofiev 2nd sonata
Bach WTCII no 6
Busoni tr Bach toccata in D minor

Offline simonjp90

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #5 on: January 12, 2010, 11:53:42 AM »
i was actually really impressed by the video, i thought you would be shite (no offence) but you actually play really well in it, even if it is just one hand

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #6 on: January 15, 2010, 08:41:34 PM »
Wait? Go out and find pianos; I'm sure you can find one somewhere. Churches and schools are often good places. I've only been almost kicked out of one.

Be sure to ask before playing of course. Playing while the choir is attempting to practice on the same stage tends to attract the wrong kind of attention.

Unforunately where I live (Poland) churches don't really have pianos, and even the ones that do (i don't know one like that in my city) they almost always have restricted access only to the times when there is something happening inside.

When I said "wait" i didn't mean sit on my ass and just wait ;-) I meant as in "I will wait with posting further questions on the forums untill I've acquired a better piano and chair", which I'm on the verge of purchasing right now (1 week or so). Thanks for the hints nontheless :)


If you produced that after your very 1st 3 weeks of playing the piano you are certainly a prodigy better than Mozart. Taking aside the fact you only play the right hand parts and you still do not know the notes, you don't really capture Mozart. Sadly you seem to have fallen into the trap of showing off with "showmanship" rather than understand the music. Currently the trend is to play right notes as fast as possible and all other detail can "go hang" & if we don't know the right notes we'll play the wrong ones just as fast ::). Music also requires dynamics, phrasing, DIRECTION. Each composer offers some je-ne-sais-croit magic qualities. Mozart is no exception. Listen to as many recordings by Gould, Brendel and Barenboim you can lay your hands on and you will start to form an "appreciation" of Mozart.

It will do your current repertoire a power of good.

I'm not sure if this first part of me being a prodigy is an irony or something else :) but yes I did play for 3 weeks (although I've always been a prettyfast keyboard [as in computer keyboard] typist, so maybe this gave me some finger dexterity). But whether it was irony or not, I appreciate what your trying to say in your entire post. I got myself a teacher and I'm having a sample 50 minute lesson with him tomorrow, I hope to get some guidance. But believe me, this all has nothing to do with showmanship as you called it.

i was actually really impressed by the video, i thought you would be shite (no offence) but you actually play really well in it, even if it is just one hand

Well, thanks, I guess. :)

Offline slow_concert_pianist

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #7 on: January 18, 2010, 01:27:26 AM »
I'm not sure if this first part of me being a prodigy is an irony or something else :) but yes I did play for 3 weeks (although I've always been a prettyfast keyboard [as in computer keyboard] typist, so maybe this gave me some finger dexterity). But whether it was irony or not, I appreciate what your trying to say in your entire post. I got myself a teacher and I'm having a sample 50 minute lesson with him tomorrow, I hope to get some guidance. But believe me, this all has nothing to do with showmanship as you called it.

Well, thanks, I guess. :)


Showmanship is often a pursuit where the player sacrifices the detail on the score in order to show off. If that was the very first time you have played the piano, you note reading ability is outstanding. Most 3rd week pianists struggle to read more than 3 notes in a row in one hand. You ignore most of Mozart's phrasing/expression markings in your performance. However, even with the dexterity errors, you play the variation 70% to speed and for that you are certainly about grade 4 standard. To reach grade 4 many take 3 years. I’m impressed and hopefully your teacher will guide you on the right path.
Currently rehearsing:

Chopin Ballades (all)
Rachmaninov prelude in Bb Op 23 No 2
Mozart A minor sonata K310
Prokofiev 2nd sonata
Bach WTCII no 6
Busoni tr Bach toccata in D minor

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 11:48:28 AM »
Showmanship is often a pursuit where the player sacrifices the detail on the score in order to show off. If that was the very first time you have played the piano, you note reading ability is outstanding. Most 3rd week pianists struggle to read more than 3 notes in a row in one hand. You ignore most of Mozart's phrasing/expression markings in your performance. However, even with the dexterity errors, you play the variation 70% to speed and for that you are certainly about grade 4 standard. To reach grade 4 many take 3 years. I’m impressed and hopefully your teacher will guide you on the right path.

Hi Slow_concert_pianist

Ok, I think I understand where the misunderstanding might have occured. I don't have any idea how to read piano notes nor phrasing. I played this piece part by ear (around 35%) and the rest by watching youtube videos with people playing this piece and paying attention to which keys exactly the pianists are hitting on the piano (of course I had to search for videos where there is a very good camera positioning, showing the keyboard upclose and from above).

I also realize that there is a lot missing in there (I notice it even though I can't read notes at all), but please keep in mind this is a terrible keyboard with terrible sound, so it doesn't really allow me to get the 'feel' of the song out there. I had the honor of playing on a real piano on my first lesson last saturday and it immediately struck me that I must buy my own piano - playing the keyboard is basically 'laughable' (no offense to any keyboard players intended!) in comparison.

QUESTION Btw what do you mean by Grade 4? I've done a quick search here on the forums but I can't seem to find an explenation to it, only people making reference to the Grading system. Where does the grading system come from?

But I can understand what you guys mean by saying "showmanship". I realized it completely when I played the piano a few days ago, it made me understand how much depth there actually can be to music. I've been missing out, but I'll make up with my new piano :) I hope!


P.s. (and please, I don't mean to be "showing off" here, just trying to get a grip on where I actually stand, of course I can't do that without your comments and I can't get your comments without introducing the whole situation). I can play this song much faster, but didn't for two reasons:

1) I thought it sounded very crummy on this keyboard and basically didn't really feel that playing this much faster made it feel right. Am I wrong? should it be played at a faster pace?

2) at first I recorded this faster, but the quality of the recording was horrible (this is recorded with a cellphone, so not the top quality microphone out there), notes blended too much with each other making it sound incomprehensible. So I re-recorded it slower.

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #9 on: January 18, 2010, 12:19:41 PM »
oh and by the way, could you please explain what you mean by "Read more than 3 notes in a row in one hand"? Apologies if the question sounds trivial. English is not my first language (I'm from Poland) so I might be missing out on something in that sentence making it incomprehensible to me. Thanks in advance :)

Offline slow_concert_pianist

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 02:42:28 AM »
Hi Slow_concert_pianist

Ok, I think I understand where the misunderstanding might have occured. I don't have any idea how to read piano notes nor phrasing. I played this piece part by ear (around 35%) and the rest by watching youtube videos with people playing this piece and paying attention to which keys exactly the pianists are hitting on the piano (of course I had to search for videos where there is a very good camera positioning, showing the keyboard upclose and from above).

I also realize that there is a lot missing in there (I notice it even though I can't read notes at all), but please keep in mind this is a terrible keyboard with terrible sound, so it doesn't really allow me to get the 'feel' of the song out there. I had the honor of playing on a real piano on my first lesson last saturday and it immediately struck me that I must buy my own piano - playing the keyboard is basically 'laughable' (no offense to any keyboard players intended!) in comparison.

QUESTION Btw what do you mean by Grade 4? I've done a quick search here on the forums but I can't seem to find an explenation to it, only people making reference to the Grading system. Where does the grading system come from?

But I can understand what you guys mean by saying "showmanship". I realized it completely when I played the piano a few days ago, it made me understand how much depth there actually can be to music. I've been missing out, but I'll make up with my new piano :) I hope!


P.s. (and please, I don't mean to be "showing off" here, just trying to get a grip on where I actually stand, of course I can't do that without your comments and I can't get your comments without introducing the whole situation). I can play this song much faster, but didn't for two reasons:

1) I thought it sounded very crummy on this keyboard and basically didn't really feel that playing this much faster made it feel right. Am I wrong? should it be played at a faster pace?

2) at first I recorded this faster, but the quality of the recording was horrible (this is recorded with a cellphone, so not the top quality microphone out there), notes blended too much with each other making it sound incomprehensible. So I re-recorded it slower.

I am talking about the English Associated Board grading system. You will have something similar in Poland. But I was unaware that you were playing “by ear”, so that places a whole new paradigm on your categorisation. I shall make a recording for you and it will make yours sound wonderful.

The only thing that connects the “player” with Mozart is his carefully notated score. This is the evidence of his genius or, as it were, our musical bible. I am often critical of emerging performers who try and play Horowitz in place of Rachmaninov, and so on. A great performer only offers an interpretation (no matter how “good”) and certainly any composer who died before 1900 is only present in the documented music score. That is the case for Mozart. We do not have any recordings of Mozart playing, so his score is sacrosanct. In some cases, as with Schubert and his “wanderer fantasy”, Balakirev and his Islamay an “oriental fantasy” the composer has been unwilling or unable to perform his own work, so composer performance is not necessarily a reliable standard anyway.

My fear is you will never appreciate the detail of Mozart unless you learn to read music. But this will offer a nasty catch for you. In reading music the brain must first be able to rationalise the written notes and dynamic, expression, phrasing markings. In that way music is a language of its own. The problem with the piano [in particular] is that information is passed on to 2 hands which must to be able to operate independently. Initially just being able to pass the commands to 2 fingers in one hand is problematic as being able to visualise any note position within a stave is a task that requires persistent enhanced training. Playing three notes in a run, most will find easy. Reading them is a big task for any beginner.
Currently rehearsing:

Chopin Ballades (all)
Rachmaninov prelude in Bb Op 23 No 2
Mozart A minor sonata K310
Prokofiev 2nd sonata
Bach WTCII no 6
Busoni tr Bach toccata in D minor

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #11 on: January 20, 2010, 12:31:14 PM »
I am talking about the English Associated Board grading system. You will have something similar in Poland. But I was unaware that you were playing “by ear”, so that places a whole new paradigm on your categorisation. I shall make a recording for you and it will make yours sound wonderful.

The only thing that connects the “player” with Mozart is his carefully notated score. This is the evidence of his genius or, as it were, our musical bible. I am often critical of emerging performers who try and play Horowitz in place of Rachmaninov, and so on. A great performer only offers an interpretation (no matter how “good”) and certainly any composer who died before 1900 is only present in the documented music score. That is the case for Mozart. We do not have any recordings of Mozart playing, so his score is sacrosanct. In some cases, as with Schubert and his “wanderer fantasy”, Balakirev and his Islamay an “oriental fantasy” the composer has been unwilling or unable to perform his own work, so composer performance is not necessarily a reliable standard anyway.

My fear is you will never appreciate the detail of Mozart unless you learn to read music. But this will offer a nasty catch for you. In reading music the brain must first be able to rationalise the written notes and dynamic, expression, phrasing markings. In that way music is a language of its own. The problem with the piano [in particular] is that information is passed on to 2 hands which must to be able to operate independently. Initially just being able to pass the commands to 2 fingers in one hand is problematic as being able to visualise any note position within a stave is a task that requires persistent enhanced training. Playing three notes in a run, most will find easy. Reading them is a big task for any beginner.


Again, many thanks for your help and insightful comments.

With your post in mind, I will start practicing reading sheet music immediately. I've already started reading some music theory and I'm literally facinated by it. Actually, a few days ago my girlfriend who was sleeping at my place told me that, in the middle of the night and while I was sleeping, suddenly I started talking about music theory, explaining the meaning of half notes / quarter notes to her, saying things like "it's so wonderful to finally start understanding some of what you see when you look at sheet music". Apparently I went on like that for almost an entire HOUR in the night. Funny thing is I don't remember doing that _AT ALL_. Funny, or scary?... :)

I'll gladly take up the task of learning to read music. If it really is similar to learning a new language, then I'm sure it will be very exciting and absorbing.

Thanks again for your comment(s)!

Offline slow_concert_pianist

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 02:22:00 AM »
Again, many thanks for your help and insightful comments.

With your post in mind, I will start practicing reading sheet music immediately. I've already started reading some music theory and I'm literally facinated by it. Actually, a few days ago my girlfriend who was sleeping at my place told me that, in the middle of the night and while I was sleeping, suddenly I started talking about music theory, explaining the meaning of half notes / quarter notes to her, saying things like "it's so wonderful to finally start understanding some of what you see when you look at sheet music". Apparently I went on like that for almost an entire HOUR in the night. Funny thing is I don't remember doing that _AT ALL_. Funny, or scary?... :)

I'll gladly take up the task of learning to read music. If it really is similar to learning a new language, then I'm sure it will be very exciting and absorbing.

Thanks again for your comment(s)!
It sounds as though you have an extraordinary natural talenet. Keep us posted on your progess :)
Currently rehearsing:

Chopin Ballades (all)
Rachmaninov prelude in Bb Op 23 No 2
Mozart A minor sonata K310
Prokofiev 2nd sonata
Bach WTCII no 6
Busoni tr Bach toccata in D minor

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first song - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 07:30:04 AM »
It sounds as though you have an extraordinary natural talenet. Keep us posted on your progess :)

Thanks for the kind words :) Most importantly for me I _REALLY_ enjoy playing. It's like I can't get enough of it! The whole day I'm walking around with melodies in my head and a book in my backpack, reading it whenever I get a chance (in the bus, waiting for the bus, in some kind of queue etc), and when I'm finally home.. I'm in a different universe then :)  Can't wait to learn more :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 05:38:18 AM »
Wait a minute!!!

First I looked at your video and I started laughing.
I laughed because I thought you were joking.
Playing like that after three weeks?
Maybe you are not joking.
If not, you are exceptionally gifted for playing the piano.

Actually, I did almost exactly the same as you. I bought a real piano and I learned Rondo alla Turca by ear, both hands. It took me less than a week, but that didn't make me a Mozart, as someone suggested above. I taught myself how to read and learned the whole sonata. Then the Concerto in A major K414. Then the etc etc...  Then I found a good teacher (sooner or later this is going to be very important!) A few years later I was in a Conservatoire in a piano-performance class, where I stayed for 4 years. This started almost twenty years ago, and I've now worked almost a decade as a teacher and a performer.

Some advise:
Near the beginning, when you do the c-major scale up in thirds followed by single-note scale going down from A to D and B, you should add a G below with the thumb. I'm sure you can hear it in all recordings, but it's meant for the right hand to play. Same thing when the passage continues in a-minor, adding an E with the thumb.

When the A-major scale-passages in octaves occur again near the end, they should be played broken. So, finger 1 first, then finger 5 etc. You can try using finger 4 on the black keys, if it makes it easier.

You hold the last chord too long. It makes a better "dramatic" effect if you make it as short, or just a very little bit longer, than the chord before it.

The tempo is fine. Absolutely not faster!! Mozart wrote "Allegretto", which is like moderately fast.

Add the left hand. The piano is a two-hand instrument, and you must get a good feeling for that!

Find a good teacher!

Find a real piano!

Learn how to read! There is information there which you can never guess by watching others or by just listening!

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 09:01:19 AM »
Wait a minute!!!

First I looked at your video and I started laughing.
I laughed because I thought you were joking.
Playing like that after three weeks?
Maybe you are not joking.
If not, you are exceptionally gifted for playing the piano.

Actually, I did almost exactly the same as you. I bought a real piano and I learned Rondo alla Turca by ear, both hands. It took me less than a week, but that didn't make me a Mozart, as someone suggested above. I taught myself how to read and learned the whole sonata. Then the Concerto in A major K414. Then the etc etc...  Then I found a good teacher (sooner or later this is going to be very important!) A few years later I was in a Conservatoire in a piano-performance class, where I stayed for 4 years. This started almost twenty years ago, and I've now worked almost a decade as a teacher and a performer.

Some advise:
Near the beginning, when you do the c-major scale up in thirds followed by single-note scale going down from A to D and B, you should add a G below with the thumb. I'm sure you can hear it in all recordings, but it's meant for the right hand to play. Same thing when the passage continues in a-minor, adding an E with the thumb.

When the A-major scale-passages in octaves occur again near the end, they should be played broken. So, finger 1 first, then finger 5 etc. You can try using finger 4 on the black keys, if it makes it easier.

You hold the last chord too long. It makes a better "dramatic" effect if you make it as short, or just a very little bit longer, than the chord before it.

The tempo is fine. Absolutely not faster!! Mozart wrote "Allegretto", which is like moderately fast.

Add the left hand. The piano is a two-hand instrument, and you must get a good feeling for that!

Find a good teacher!

Find a real piano!

Learn how to read! There is information there which you can never guess by watching others or by just listening!

Hi daniloperusina,

Many thanks for the advice. Yes, you are right I actually did think that the G near the beginning is played by the left hand, not the right. A question here: in practice, what is the difference that it makes which hand plays this one? Or is it just a good habit to play it with the same hand since the note is not far off from the original notes being played by the right hand? I'd appreciate some input here!

P.s. WOW, I've very impressed that you've been able to play the whole piece in your first week of playing the piano! I'd love to hear what you "sound" like at the moment :) Any place where I can hear your pieces or other musical work?

P.s.2. no I really wasn't joking with the three weeks thing, I actually didn't have an idea that it would stir so much emotion nor did I realize that it was a strange thing. Believe me, I'm not on this forum to brag, just to hopefully learn. And I'm hoping you guys understand that so you don't feel I'm here to tool anyone, I really appreciate your comments and I'm trying to get the best out of them with the limited free time I have right now (this will change in the future too and I should have an extra 3-4 hours per day).

By the way, I'm going to see a piano concert today, it's my first time :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 03:14:33 PM »
The G: This is one of those answers we have to find in the score. Is it melody? Is it middle voice? Is it bassline? How did Mozart write it? He wrote it like this:

As you can see, he placed it in the right hand. Also, the top note (D) is a quarter note, while the G follows the B as an eighth note. This means that B and G are not part of the "melody", but is a separate voice just underneath it. The D is the "melody". So, when playing those, you should hold the D with your 4th finger while finger 2 plays B followed by finger 1 playing G. You should not hold the B while sounding the G.

The difference it makes is one of those nice musical subtleties, as well as a psychological difference: we "feel" the G in the right hand as part of the music going on in those voices, and do not "feel" that it's part of the bass.

Ps 2: Don't worry!! As a beginner you are bound to ask "strange" questions in the eyes of many 'old' players. You cannot possibly know what you still haven't learned, so just keep on asking as many things as possible and ignore the bad answers and use the good ones!:)

Me: www.myspace.com/daniloperusina

I've posted a few recordings here, for example: http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=17867.msg191073#msg191073
That is the first movement of the "Tempest" sonata by Beethoven.


Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 04:33:50 PM »
The G: This is one of those answers we have to find in the score. Is it melody? Is it middle voice? Is it bassline? How did Mozart write it? He wrote it like this:

As you can see, he placed it in the right hand. Also, the top note (D) is a quarter note, while the G follows the B as an eighth note. This means that B and G are not part of the "melody", but is a separate voice just underneath it. The D is the "melody". So, when playing those, you should hold the D with your 4th finger while finger 2 plays B followed by finger 1 playing G. You should not hold the B while sounding the G.

The difference it makes is one of those nice musical subtleties, as well as a psychological difference: we "feel" the G in the right hand as part of the music going on in those voices, and do not "feel" that it's part of the bass.

Ps 2: Don't worry!! As a beginner you are bound to ask "strange" questions in the eyes of many 'old' players. You cannot possibly know what you still haven't learned, so just keep on asking as many things as possible and ignore the bad answers and use the good ones!:)

Me: www.myspace.com/daniloperusina

I've posted a few recordings here, for example: http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=17867.msg191073#msg191073
That is the first movement of the "Tempest" sonata by Beethoven.



Hi again daniloperusina :)

This whole post made perfect sense to me, thanks a lot for that :)

I was already wondering today about some examples of things that you can see in the sheet music but can't exactly hear by just listening to the music itself, and I believe you gave me a good example of that. But just in case, won't it bee to much if I ask for one or two more similar examples? They don't have to be from Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca, of course - any piece will do. I would just like to get a better idea of what I'm missing out on :)

I've listened to your music, it sounds very soothing to me. I havn't heared them played by anyone else unfortunately so I'm neither able nor qualified to judge, but in my personal opinion it sounds really wonderful :)

I can only imagine how exciting it is to still play the same instrument 20 years after you first started, and being able to see all the progress you did. It must give you a great sense of accomplishment, too, I would imagine :) I hope someday I will also be able to know the piano so well it almost feels like an extra body part of mine. Oops sorry, there I am in fantasy land again! But this is where it all starts, I'd imagine.. :)

Oh by the way, one extra question regarding your very beginnings. Being able to learn Mozart's entire Rondo Alla Turca in less than a week, having no prior piano experience, now THAT is something worth wowwing about, and what I would call real talent :) any 'secrets' that you might have had for achieving this, or how you've been able to develop your technique for both hands so rapidly?

Again, tons of thanks for your help and advice. I'm buyin you an e-beer, sir :)




Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 05:15:37 PM »
Thanks for the beer!:)
In my case, I played the guitar before that, blues and rock, aural music, so I was already good at picking out notes by ear. Some people, like yourself, just don't find it very difficult to use their hands to play on an instrument like the piano. Some do. I don't think there's any mystical forces involved!:)
Here's another example, difficult to realize until you see the score. It's the Moonlight Sonata. Many beginners make the mistake of not understanding that the top line is "singing" melody, although very slow. It's typical to think instead that it's just a key on the piano you have to press down. As soon as they have pressed it down they release it. But you cannot "sing" a long note on the piano if you don't keep holding your finger on it. It would be like a singer just making a short sound and then thinking that "the reverb will take care of the rest" (like it's easy to think that the pedal will on a piano). It's wrong musically, physically and pshycologically to release the notes any sooner than Beethoven asks you to, in this piece. Here it is, when the melody begins:


Thanks for the kind words about my playing!:)

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 05:32:27 PM »
Thanks for the beer!:)
In my case, I played the guitar before that, blues and rock, aural music, so I was already good at picking out notes by ear. Some people, like yourself, just don't find it very difficult to use their hands to play on an instrument like the piano. Some do. I don't think there's any mystical forces involved!:)
Here's another example, difficult to realize until you see the score. It's the Moonlight Sonata. Many beginners make the mistake of not understanding that the top line is "singing" melody, although very slow. It's typical to think instead that it's just a key on the piano you have to press down. As soon as they have pressed it down they release it. But you cannot "sing" a long note on the piano if you don't keep holding your finger on it. It would be like a singer just making a short sound and then thinking that "the reverb will take care of the rest" (like it's easy to think that the pedal will on a piano). It's wrong musically, physically and pshycologically to release the notes any sooner than Beethoven asks you to, in this piece. Here it is, when the melody begins:


Thanks for the kind words about my playing!:)

Again, thanks for the very good example. I see more and more that I need to learn to read music as quickly as possible, otherwise I'll be missing out on a ton and will basically never have the chance to feel the music as it was intended by the composer. Thanks for a valuable lesson :)

I'm still curious as to any special technique training that you might have emplored to learn the whole Mozart piece during your first week on the piano :) or did it just come naturally to you from the start to use both your hands and to move your fingers rapidly on the keyboard? I'm just hoping to pick up on something that might help me in this area, since I can "hear" tons of my own music in my head quite often that I would really like to play (I mean my own 'composition'), but can't do so due to my learning to use both hands is coming off a bit slower than just my right hand :) so any tips here on how you started and how you were able to develop the dexterity so quickly from scratch would be extremely appreciated.

Now, I'm off to the concert! :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #20 on: January 23, 2010, 04:05:42 AM »
I think you will sense that when you sit down on a real piano. It's a very big instrument, and it feels awkward not to use both hands. Your keyboard is so small that it maybe even makes more sense to play with only one hand. On a real one there is simply much more space, and the keys are also bigger.
I'm aware that I'm stating the obvious, but I think this is the right answer to your question. The answer is in the instrument. What you are playing on is not a piano. A real, acoustic piano will force you to adjust technically to the demands specific for that very instrument. I looked at your fingerings, and maybe not all of them will even work as well on a piano as they do on your keyboard. For example, a typical "pianistic" way of fingering the first five notes would be 4-3-2-1-3. Might make less sense on your keyboard, but more on a piano. The A-major scale in the middle of the piece ascends and hits the upper A twice. Normally, a pianist would use two different fingers for that, 5-4, but you use 5-5. The keys on a piano is heavier, and one reason to use 5-4 is to avoid building up tension there, as 5-5 might require the hand to stiffen a bit. The 4-3-2-1-3 fingering does the same. By avoiding using the same finger(s) several times in quick succession (for example 2-1-2-1-2) we also avoid potential stiffness. I can't think of any other, or better "technical" approach to start with than just that: sit down on a real piano and let the instrument start telling you what it wants you to do!:)
That's what I did, no more, no less...:)

You're asking for some specific technical training I did, but there wasn't any.
However, I might suggest a "schematic" approach: before "playing" the left hand, just press down the chord once and let it remain until there's a change of chords. That is, first a-minor (A-C-E), then the tree notes E-B-E, then an octave B-B, then a singel E. That way your left hand will quickly and easily learn when to change positions. When that feels fluent, start adding the rythm. I think that will facilitate the learning.

Your right hand is already so fluent that I see little point in finding specific exercises just now. Rondo Alla Turca will be far superior as an exercise to most of them anyway!:) I'd suggest just keep on playing for now, and let the music be your exercise.

By the way, you need to listen again to the last part; you're missing out a few details there. E.g. the chord E-A-C#, which is played 4 times, is precluded by a rapid D above C# each time. Same with 4 x E-G#-B, precluded by rapid C#. You're also leaving out seven bars in the middle of that section. Listen, and I'm sure you'll hear it.

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #21 on: January 23, 2010, 08:11:14 AM »
Morning!

I have to be a bit quick since I'm off to my lesson in about 4 minutes literally :)

As always, thanks for the advice :) Just one question here:

You said "For example, a typical "pianistic" way of fingering the first five notes would be 4-3-2-1-3.".

Did you have 4-3-2-3-1 in mind? I'm assuming 5 is the thumb and the pinky is 1. 4-3-2-1-3 seems a bit awkward to me, but maybe that's just lack of experience, I need to check though :)

Regarding the last part, yes I am aware of the descrepancy in there, unfortunately it turned out that the piece that I was watching on youtube was somehow "cut" at the end in order to speed things up for some reason, not sure why. I've learned the entire piece since then though, but I'm not making any more recording for the time being! :)

And thanks for the info regarding your begginings, that's very helpful to me. Before buying your piano, however, did you take any lessons, or play on a keyboard or on someone else's piano for some time? What I'm trying to figure out is whether there was ANY additional info you might have had regarding the piano on the time, or did it all come to you intuitively, so I may somehow use this to my advantage as well :) How many hours a week did you practice back then, and how many do you now?

Talk to you later!

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #22 on: January 23, 2010, 12:17:23 PM »
Hi!
The thumbs on both hands is 1, and the rest follows accordingly.
I started by buying a piano (old, bad, cheap) with no prior knowledge.
I did about 4 hours or more from day 1, and still do!:)
There was nothing more to it than that!

Best of luck with the lesson!

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #23 on: January 23, 2010, 12:32:29 PM »
HI :)

Came back from the lesson about an hour ago. It's my second lesson with the same teacher.

Damn, I really like the man a lot, and his piano knowledge is definitely admirable, I'm just not sure he's right for me.

When I went on my first lesson with him a week ago, he asked me to show him what I know. So I showed him the only two things I did "know" at the time - Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca and Chopin's Minute Waltz. But I did emphasize at least 3-4 times that my piano knowledge ENDS on what he saw, and that he should treat me like an absolute beginner (which I am). Even though I've emphasized it, however, I feel he is still treating me like I know way more than I do. He says too many things "in a matter of fact way", like I'm supposed to know what he means, showing me 3-4 chords in a word on the piano, saying (wording is random, just to show you what I mean) "This is a DMajor triad, and see THIS is how we invert that chord! And it sounds almost the same as THIS chord, right?" he says this in about 3-4 seconds, jumping between the chords in that time like I'm supposed to follow exactly what he's doing, and all the time I'm just thinking "ok, heck, this is D.... that's an F" and by the time I'm done analyzing what pitches are actually in a given chord, let alone understand the theories of harmony behind it, he's already skipping to the second, and third chords.

I've said at least a few times that I need him to go more slowly, but I feel like I'm needing to ask waay too many questions, in spots where he himself (at least that's how I imagine a good teacher) should know that this is something that I most likely don't understand and should dive into explaining it himself. I mean, hey, I'm really all for asking questions, but the way he's doing it I'm having to interrupt him basically every 5-6 seconds asking "what does this mean, what does that mean?", and it's making me kind of tired and feeling a bit like an ass for interrupting him so often.

In your opinion, as an experienced teacher, do you think I should give him some more time to see how we do together, or should I just start looking for another teacher? Any hints are welcome!

Thanks in advance :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #24 on: January 24, 2010, 01:11:22 AM »
I'm sure you'll understand that it's very difficult to give that sort of advice without actually having been there.

But something tells me that since you've thanked me twice for explaining matters in such a way that you understood, there might be a better teacher for you.
Imagine that you would have gone to two lessons, and both lessons would have made perfect sense to you? Wouldn't that have been much better? Of course it would!
It's like someone wanting to tell you about a book they just read. Some people can give a very good idea with a few short sentences, while others go on and on, explaining very confusingly and making you understand absolutely nothing.

If your gut feeling is frustration and that you're wasting your time and money, then change teachers. If your gut feeling is that you learning and progressing a lot with each lesson, than stay with that teacher. Teacher-student is a two-way situation. You must devote time to study and the teacher must help you. If you don't do the time, there's little a teacher can do. But if you do but the teacher isn't helpful, he is failing to be pedagogical.

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #25 on: January 25, 2010, 08:01:53 PM »
Hi Danilo,

I think you are right, again :) When I asked you a question you've been able to explain it quickly and nicely, in a way that shows you simply understand that things which are obvious to you are most likely a complete mistery to me. If you don't mind, I'm going to try and tell you about a concept which my teacher was trying to explain to me, and which I failed to understand. I'm very curious if you will be able to somehow efficiently explain it to me, I hope you don't mind! I'll do the best I can to explain the issue over here, but given the fact that my teacher uses Polish terminology, some of the terms I use here will most likely NOT be the equivelant of their English counterparts, but hopefully we'll communicate somehow :)

Ok, so he said that I will have to learn something I believe would be called "Harmonic functions". But in order to do that, I first needed to understand that each scale has three basic chords - the tonic chord, the subdominant chord and the dominant chord.

He also added that a dominant chord SHOULD contain a 7th interval (from the tonic I believe).

At this point I was already pretty confused, not understanding what all of this actually means in practice nor actually being able to imagine the stuff properly. To get things more confusing, however, he introduced something which I'm having a hard time translating into English.. but he basically said that a dominant chord, in order for it to conform with harmony rules, should almost ALWAYS be something like "broken down" into a different chord, I believe he meant that it would need to be changed into a tonic chord or something. He was showing me this example based on the C Major scale (the Dominant chord in there with the tonic G).

He said that in order to "break down" that dominant chord, I would need to:

1. Change the first note of the dominant chord into the 5th interval of the tonic (I don't know exactly how to interpret this).

2. the third interval and 5th interval are both "broken down" into the prime of the tonic.

3. The 7th is changed into the 3rd of the tonic.


So basically a chord of D F G B would be "broken down" into C E G C I believe (it's not that I understand why, just I remember him jumping between those two chords, saying that "this is how we break it down", and I wrote down the notes on a staff for myself).


You can see by the way I'm writing that I'm not entirely sure I understand what I'm writing. I'm failing to understand what the "tonic chord" actually is, and basically I feel like I'm lacking tiny bits of very simple yet very vital pieces of information, which make it impossible for me to understand the whole concept.

Damn, it came out a bit chaotic, I hope you'll be able to make something out of it! Sorry for the confusion man. I've already changed my teacher, we'll see how the other one does.

Ale the best!

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #26 on: January 26, 2010, 11:59:26 AM »
Yes, it's a bit chaotically described, but not by you but by your teacher.

You have been introduced to several major theoretical areas at once:
Intervals
Scales
Chords
Harmonic function
Tension and release between different steps of the scale

This is difficult to explain briefly, at least by me!:)

I'll try, but I might have to write several posts about this.

First, ALL music theory is derived from the seven notes:
ABCDEFG

The steps between any two of them is called interval.
A-B is a second
B-C is a second
D-E is a second

A-C is a third
B-D is a third

etc

If you raise or lower them, it's still the same basic interval
A-C# is a third
To separate it from A-C, we call A-C# a major (big) third and A-C a minor (small) third.
This we can do with every interval. We can raise them or lower them.

The idea of these seven notes date back at least 2500 years. Today, we only create two scales from this:
Major scale: CDEFGABC
Minor scale: ABCDEFGA

We can then imitate the major scale from any other starting note by using # or b.
For a Dmajor scale to sound exactly the same as CDEFGABC, we raise F and C:
DEF#GABC#D.

Do you follow this far?

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #27 on: January 26, 2010, 01:02:41 PM »
Crystal clear :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #28 on: January 27, 2010, 12:58:25 AM »
The basics of the "Tonic" then...

The tonic is the first note of the scale.
It gives the scale it's name.
It will be the center note of the composition.
It's so important, that if the composition doesn't end with this very note, it will sound "unfinished".

In Cmajor, this note is C.
From this note, you also create the Cmajor chord by adding the third and the fifth.
C E G
This chord is called "the tonic chord".
It's not enough that the composition ends with the tonic chord, it has to end with the note C as the top note. If you play the tonic chord (from bass to treble) C E G, it will sound as if the composition ends with the tonic chord, but with the G as the main melody note, because G is then highest up. This isn't good enough. You have to change the order of the notes so that you play (from bass to treble) E G C. This is the same chord, Cmajor, but now with C as the top note, which we hear as "the melody".
It's equally important that C is the note lowest in the bass, otherwise it will also sound "unfinished". Therefore, the left hand should add C in the bass.

Normally the composition also starts with the tonic chord, but at this point the note C isn't so important. That is because the composition will deal with a lot of "tensions" between the different notes of the scale anyway, so how it starts is less important than how it finishes.

Next, all the rest of the notes of the scale, that is numbers 2-7, in Cmajor:
D E F G A B
will all have a special relationship to the tonic note C.

To investigate these relationships, we need to do a few musical experiments:
Play C four times, followed by G four times.
What happens?
After that last G, you will hear an enormous tension.
If you are forced to play only one note after that, and then the little piece must end, which note must you play?

Now play C four times, followed by B four times.
What happens? How must you finish this?

Now C four times, followed by D four times.
How must you finish this?

As you can hear, there are some obvious forces going on. These have of course been recognised for ages. I'm sure you'll agree that the most powerful of these three experiments was the one using C four times followed by G four times. For this reason, the G (or the fifth step in the scale) has been called "the Dominant".
This is very important to learn and understand. The Dominant will be prominent in almost every pop- and rock song ever written. It is also very prominent in the music of Mozart and Beethoven. A little bit less with Chopin, who lived a bit later, and by the early 20th century it was avoided all together by composers like Arnold Schoenberg.

The other two notes have come to be called other things, but they are not so important to memorize: the D (or the second step of the scale) has come to be called "the Supertonic" (meaning "the note above the tonic"), and the B (or the seventh step of the scale) has come to be called "the Leading note" (because it kind of leads so smoothly back to the tonic).

As you have seen, three notes in the scale, the 2nd, 5th and 7th, all pull, or "break down", as you put it, to the tonic note, the 1st.

As it happens, these three notes also form a perfect Dominant chord, in this case a perfect Gmajor chord:
G B D.

Crystal clear?:-) I'm sure the topic will be moved again soon, to the "theory board:)

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #29 on: January 27, 2010, 10:44:54 AM »
Crystal clear, as usual :)

I'm starting to think about moving to Stockholm... ;-)

Now I realize how poorly my teacher approached the matter, he skipped so many things.

By the way I can see from all of this that this teacher was teaching me things that are more geared towards composition. Is this a good approach, to start by teaching composition related techniques? I was under the impression that we should at first focus more on music reading :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #30 on: January 27, 2010, 12:09:24 PM »
Hahaha, yes, move to Stockholm and I'll put you in one of my classes:-)

By what you said, it's easy to see that your teacher wasn't well structured in teaching harmony. The truth is, I have a great time with this because it gives me the opportunity to structure myself in teaching harmony. Usually, in my pianoclasses there just isn't time to talk much about this. I might, with the help of this, be able to start doing that!:)

I think theory, composition and reading are well-related. Composers have to study theory, and musicians must study composition. But studying theory IS studying composition, as you must look at musical examples to understand how the theory works. That is not the same as studying to become a composer, of course.

More topics will follow..

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #31 on: January 27, 2010, 12:54:21 PM »
Next issue is the SUBDOMINANT.

This will be brief, and you have to do the figuring out on your own,

We will continue to use C as our tonic. But temporarily, make F your tonic!

If F is your tonic note, what will be the relationship between F and C?

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #32 on: January 27, 2010, 01:29:53 PM »
If I understand your question correctly, assuming F is the tonic then C becomes the dominant in relation to F (so C becomes the point of highest tension relatively to F). If this isn't the correct answer, before you give me the answer could you please rephrase the question, in case I misunderstood it :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #33 on: January 28, 2010, 01:24:31 AM »
You made my day!:)

That is the correct answer, and more than that, your answer is brilliant!

In the key of C, that is, when C is the tonic, F, or the fourth step in the scale, is called "the Subdominant".

As you can see, the tonic - subdominant relationship is not an "isolated" phenomenon all on it's own, but it's actually a kind of up-side-down dominant - tonic relationship.

C relates to F as G relates to C.

They are steps 1, 4 and 5.
They are called Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant.

Now it's time to introduce roman numbers. When we talk about steps in the scale, we use arabic numbers: 1, 2, 3 etc.
When talk about the chords formed from these steps, we use roman numbers: I, II, III etc.

Single notes are called 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Chords are called I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII

So, the Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant chords will from now on be called:
I, IV and V.

It's also time to summerize which notes these three chords contain:
C major: C E G
F major: F A C
G major: G B D

If you look carefully, you'll see that these three chords contain all the notes of the scale!
C D E F G A B C are all represented in at least one of those three chords.

And as I stated before, the dominant - tonic relationship is the foundation of pop, rock, many folk-music styles, classical music particularly in the era of Mozart and Beethoven and I think in more traditional jazz.

And as we have now proven that the three chords I, IV and V all have some kind of tonic-dominant relationship, it's no wonder that they have often been called "the three basic chords".

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #34 on: January 28, 2010, 07:39:52 AM »
Crystal :) (Thanks for your time, glad you're also benifiting by doing this)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #35 on: January 28, 2010, 12:29:51 PM »
This I IV V relationship can be moved around to all the available notes on the piano by using # and b.

Thus, if Gb is I, Cb is IV and Db is V.
Because if G is lowered, then C and D will have to be lowered too, in order to correspond perfectly to
G (I) C (IV) D (V)

Get it?
Now, you should try to solve the following:

If Db is I, what will be IV and V?

Also, what notes will those chords consist of?
I'll give you Db major chord: Db F Ab.
What about the other two chords?

You may not be able to come up with the right answer, but that's perfectly ok!
In this case, trying will be enough. It will be a lesson in itself!

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #36 on: January 28, 2010, 12:44:53 PM »
If Db is I, I believe Gb would be IV and Ab would be V.

As for the chords, if I remember correctly (some article from a few days ago, not sure), Major chords are constructed like this: Tonic - 4 half steps - 3 half steps. So this would make the chords respectively:

I - Db F Ab (you wrote that :P)
IV - Gb Bb Db
V - Ab C Eb

At least I think so (I believe those three chords contain all the notes from the Db scale, so that's a good sign I guess) :) I'm currently at work, so I'm using a virtual online piano (http://tiny.pl/rzqz) to count, goes quicker than from the top of my head, I hope that's ok :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #37 on: January 29, 2010, 06:21:58 PM »
Very good! Absolutely correct!:)

The reason I picked Db major is of course that it is the Tonic of Chopin's Minute Waltz!

It works counting half steps, of course. But better is to use the "real" method.
As I stated above, ALL theory is based on ABCDEFG. No other notes "exist" as a basis.
All major and minor chords are 1-3-5 from any note from ABCDEFG.
Lower D, and we also have to lower A. Db - F is a major 3rd. So,
Db - F - Ab.

I saw another question you posted about enharmonic equivalents. "How to know if a note is F# or Gb?". The answer lies in ABCDEFG. Find which interval it is you are looking for, then adjust one of the seven accordingly.

You can also "double raise" or "double lower" a note. It looks like this: bb and x.
Gb major: Gb - Bb - Db.
Gb minor: Gb - Bbb - Db

D major: D - F# - A
D# major: D# - Fx - A#.

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #38 on: January 29, 2010, 06:57:58 PM »
Now you should learn about the 7th!

A 7th is either "major 7th" or "minor 7th", that is, big or small.
In C major, CDEFGAB, you have for example C-B and G-F.

Which one is a major 7th and which one is a minor 7th?

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #39 on: January 29, 2010, 07:27:38 PM »
C-B would be major and G-F would be minor, I believe :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #40 on: January 30, 2010, 01:36:18 PM »
Correct!

So, to create a minor 7th from C, we have to lower B to Bb.
When we give names to chords, we sometimes skip some information.
When the 3rd is "major", we skip the major.
So C major chord is often just called C.
When the 7th is minor, we skip the minor.
So C major with minor 7th we often just call C7.

C E G Bb = C7
G B D F = G7

When the 3rd is minor, we ALWAYS say it!
So C minor with minor 7th is called Cm7
We pronounce it "C minor seven".
C Eb G Bb

When the 7th is major, we usually say it.
So, C major with major 7th we call Cmaj7.
We pronounce it "C major seventh".
C E G B

The minor 7th has been very important in dominant-oriented music (pop, rock, Mozart, Beethoven).
To investigate what that note does, play the following notes as a slow melody:
G B D F E

As you hear, the F pulls very nicely towards E.

Also, play the following as a slow melody:
C E G Bb A

Can you deduct from this what the importance of adding a minor 7th is?
Or what is it that the minor 7th does?



Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #41 on: January 30, 2010, 03:54:30 PM »
Hello Danilo :)

Hmmm, I've thought about it and I'm not sure I'm able to come up with an answer. What I have concluded is that when I play a 7th Chord, when compared to a triad for example, it feels almost like there is something that needs / should follow that chord, as if it was leading to something else, a transition of sorts. I'm not sure at all whether this is the answer you are looking for, but I'll think about this a bit longer and if I come up with something, I'll edit my post (hopefully before you reply :)).

Cheers!

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #42 on: January 31, 2010, 02:46:40 AM »
Again, you are spot on!
You are very good!:)

I had a hard time finding the right question. But never worry about coming up with the wrong answer! If you do, showing where you might have gone wrong will be a lesson in itself, and the understanding will only be better for it!

Yes, something must follow that chord. I already stated that the note F pulls strongly to the note E when played in a G7 chord.

Try playing it again, slowly, note by note, C E G Bb A.
The Bb pulls towards A.

Play slowly, note by note, G B D F E.
The F pulls towards E.

When the Tonic chord is C major, then F major is IV and G major V.

How can these chords with the minor 7th (C7 and G7) be useful? More useful than just the triads C major and G major?

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #43 on: January 31, 2010, 12:54:41 PM »
Hi again!

Hmmm, my first thought is that since the 7th chord gives the feeling that something else is to follow, I would assume that it would feel "right" just before the ending of a piece, or at least right before the ending of a movement in a piece (I hope I used the term "movement" here correctly, please correct me if I didn't). What would also make sense to me based on the above is that it could be used as a nice way to "trick" the listener, for example after playing the 7th Chord, since the listener will most likely "expect" a conclusion to follow the chord (I don't know if everyones ear works like that, but that is how it would sound to me), then you could suddenly follow it with something else than expected. Probably could work to create an impressive dramatic effect if used correctly.

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #44 on: January 31, 2010, 01:43:31 PM »
Again, your answer is excellent!

Rondo Alla turca is a movement. It is the last movement of the Sonata in A major K 331. K is short for Köchel, a person who made a chronolgical list of all Mozart's compositions.

So, a movement is exactly like a "piece". It is complete in itself. But the difference between a piece and a movement is that a piece stands alone, while a movement is part of a bigger composition, like a sonata. A sonata typically has three movements. Rondo Alla Turca is the third movement of the sonata in A major.

What you describe about the minor 7th chord is very good! I need to discuss what you just said more in detail, but now I'm in a hurry, so more will follow.

The basic is that a G7 chord pulls even stronger to a C major chord because of the extra force between the notes F and E. E is the 3rd in C major.

The rest of what you say is very true, and this will be dealt with shortly!:)

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #45 on: January 31, 2010, 03:01:08 PM »
Thanks for the explenation Danilo, all your posts are extremely helpful :)

Can't wait for your next post! Have a nice day :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #46 on: February 01, 2010, 06:50:53 AM »
Now about how to "trick" the listener!

As said, G7 is the Dominant to C major.
G B D pulls to the note C.
F pulls to the note E.
So, G7 pulls even stronger to C than just a G major chord.

C major chord, or "triad", has the notes C E G.

The minor 7th of G7, the note F and the fact that it pulls strongly to the note E, can be used to "trick" the listener. Maybe we would rather say that "it can be used to move the music to other harmonic areas than C major".

Now, out of the C major scale: C D E F G A B
(which of course continues endlessly: CDEFGABCDEFGABCDEFGAB etc)
there can be created two more triads, chords, that will contain the note E.

Which?

Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #47 on: February 01, 2010, 07:52:55 AM »
Hello Danilo,

Could you please clarify what kind of triads you have in mind? Do you mean Major triads or something else?

EDIT: hmm I guess I got your question right the first time, but in a funny sort of way I did it without realizing that what I'm writing aren't actually MAJOR chords :) never mind my above question then sorry :)

Again, it's E G B, and A C E :)

Offline daniloperusina

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #48 on: February 01, 2010, 08:02:15 AM »
Very good!

But triads are like chords, major or minor.
A C E is A minor chord or triad
E G B is E minor chord or triad

They are called so because the 3rd they contain, E-G and A-C, respectively, is a minor 3rd.

I think triad simply refers to a chord containing three notes. A chord can have more than three notes, as for example G7, which have four!:)

Now you have to play! So, first play the following chords, one after the other, in this order:
C - G7 - C

Next:
C -G7 - Am

Next:
C - G7 - Em

The ear always expects C after G7. By doing the above, you replace the expected with something else. Do you think Am and Em both sound equally well after a G7 chord?


Offline ggpianogg

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Re: "My" first piece - Turkish March by Mozart
«Reply #49 on: February 01, 2010, 08:08:50 AM »
Damn, I don't have access to my keyboard right now (posting by remote access through cellphone at the moment), but I will in about an hour or so, will get back to you then :)