scriabin op. 42, no.5

[nicholasddp]

hello all,


I'm beginning this piece (scriabin etude in c-sharp minor, op.42, no.5) and am struggling with some left hand fingering. I play 2-1-2-5-1-5 for most of the left-hand groupings but it feels really awkward. I haven't been able to come across many editions with fingering. Has anyone played this piece, if so, what fingering did you use for it?

thanks!!!

[vviola]

That fingering should work. How long have you been practicing this piece?

[nicholasddp]

i've been working on it for less than a week. have you played the piece yourself?

[vviola]

I haven't played this piece myself, no, but I sight read the left hand on the first page at a slow tempo, and found the fingering you mentioned (2-1-2-5-1-5) seems to be the only comfortable fingering. My suggestion is to play the left hand alone, slowly, until you it becomes comfortable for you. It takes some work, but it is an etude after all.

[john11inc]

Way I know it is more complicated, but should be more comfortable and less tiring because it's less repetitive.  You'll probably want to have a pretty good span and strength in 3/5 as well:

2-1-3-5-1-4-1-2-3-5-1-5 - The less repetitive a fingering is, the less likely you are to get locked or tripped up when intervals change.  The crossing might prove too annoying for you; I'm left handed and basically learned to play in Scarlatti, so I sort of have an edge on this and thus that fingering might be slightly biased to my own strengths, although all the other advice should still be good  The 1-4 will facilitate more control over tone and volume.  Also, you typically want to avoid playing any octave intervals 5-1/1-5 as much as possible (in anything speedy, which this is), as it leads to fatigue and locking more easily than 4-1/1-4 in these types of passages.  But mainly, this fingering should be a lot more comfortable, just harder to learn, and it will give you much more variety of tone.  I'll tell you though, the biggest thing you might not be thinking about (because you're busy being frustrated/overwhelmed by the piece) is wrist and elbow rotation.  If you really make a mental effort to work that in to your practicing you'll find you will advance a lot faster, especially with figures like this.  Also, the 2-1-2-5-1-5 is going to get you in trouble when the passage introduces repeated notes, I can guarantee that.  It's going to be a lot of extraneous motion.

If you have fairly small hands the 2-1-2-5-1-5 might be the only option though, unfortunately, although you still might think about introducing the 1-2-3 thumb-under.

[lostinidlewonder]

212515 is the best fingering, the challenge is to control the octaves that end the pattern, the intial part is not difficult at all. Try to treat the LH patterns as 2 systems technically, 212 and 515. You should be feeling an anti clockwise half circle in the LH where 212 starts on the right, then as we play the 515 we rotate the hand to the left in an arc controlling the ending octaves with a subtle downward movement of the wrist completing the anti-clockwise motion (nb: when you first hit the 5th you should feel at the top centre of the circle so when you play the octaves you can softly sink into them). It is quite futile trying to explain technique in words though.

2-1-3-5-1-4-1-2-3-5-1-5 - The less repetitive a fingering is, the less likely you are to get locked or tripped up when intervals change.  

This fingering is too intricate for the repetitive  pattern imo, it doesn't fit well at rapid speed and to produce an even ppp touch later on, you have more difficulties (when the Rh becomes more complicated, two intricate fingerings in BH makes things burdensome)

lso, the 2-1-2-5-1-5 is going to get you in trouble when the passage introduces repeated notes, I can guarantee that.  It's going to be a lot of extraneous motion.

Does it? How? 5 then 1 (or vice versa) transferring onto the note the 5 was on is a standard movement, something you see plenty in Debussy, Chopin, Liszt, Ravel etc etc.

If you have fairly small hands the 2-1-2-5-1-5 might be the only option though, unfortunately, although you still might think about introducing the 1-2-3 thumb-under.

123 thumb under just makes the situation harder imo. The shape of the LH changes as we constrain the thumb, unlike the repetitive open hand fingering pattern where the hand does not have to change its shape as dramatically and thus conserves energy for the more difficult acrobatics that come after the first two pages.

[nanabush]

Eeekk!  I tried out the different fingering using more fingers.
 2-1-2 is MUCH MUCH easier than 2-1-3 (for the first three notes).  I didn't even bother trying the rest.  I can see, though, how someone with extremely high finger dexterity would be able to pull that off.

The second page would be impossible to play properly with that 2-1-3-5-1-4-1-2-3-5-1-5... the right hand has crazy fingering and moves around there; I'd not bother doing anything else than 2-1-2-5-1-5 (which I found pretty straightforward, since that figure repeats for a large part of the piece).

[john11inc]

Does it? How? 5 then 1 (or vice versa) transferring onto the note the 5 was on is a standard movement, something you see plenty in Debussy, Chopin, Liszt, Ravel etc etc.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find that in [insert your choice of composers].  That's what you'll be using if it's a two-handed figure, such as in Scarbo, but one-handed octave figures such as the Ce Qu'a vu le Vent d'Ouest is going to be a 1-4-1-5, unless you're like, some tiny-handed Asian girl.  Check out Pollini's and Michelangeli's; there are videos.  Also, probably even more appropriate, check out the LH fingerings in Vers la Flamme.

123 thumb under just makes the situation harder imo. The shape of the LH changes as we constrain the thumb, unlike the repetitive open hand fingering pattern where the hand does not have to change its shape as dramatically and thus conserves energy for the more difficult acrobatics that come after the first two pages.

You're saying varying the fingering to include a thumb under is going to make it less tiring than using the same, three fingers for the entire piece?  Really doubt it.

Anyway, I looked up a couple videos of this piece on youtube.  You can find them for yourself.  I checked Kissin's and Berezovsky's, both of whom do not use 2-1-2-5-1-5 throughout.  Berezovsky seems to be trading back and forth between mine and the 2-1-2-5-1-5 (even more mentally complicated), while Kissin seems to occasionally throw in a 1-2-3 instead of a 3-2-1.  So, there are a couple more options there; seems like it's not exactly as set in stone as you might like to think.

Anyway, of course my fingering (or theirs) is more difficult.  It's more difficult for the first 30 seconds.  Yours is more difficult for the last 2 and a half minutes.  2-1-2-5-1-5 is like trying to sprint a mile: maybe you'll get there a bit faster, but what sort of state are you going to be in when you get there?

[lostinidlewonder]

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find that in [insert your choice of composers].  That's what you'll be using if it's a two-handed figure, such as in Scarbo, but one-handed octave figures such as the Ce Qu'a vu le Vent d'Ouest is going to be a 1-4-1-5, unless you're like, some tiny-handed Asian girl.  Check out Pollini's and Michelangeli's; there are videos.  Also, probably even more appropriate, check out the LH fingerings in Vers la Flamme.

I really don't understand why you are going against a 515 movement, it is a standard fingering. Also there are some chords in the RH which are impossible for some people to reach, in that case their LH will have to take the low note of the RH chord, thus altering the fingering 212515 allows more flexibility to control this. Using your fingering to control LH bar 6 for instance is totally ridiculous.

You're saying varying the fingering to include a thumb under is going to make it less tiring than using the same, three fingers for the entire piece?  Really doubt it.

Thumb under in the LH opening pattern will make things harder not easier imo, it will make things more tiring and I briefly explained why in my initial post.

Anyway, I looked up a couple videos of this piece on youtube.  You can find them for yourself.  I checked Kissin's and Berezovsky's, both of whom do not use 2-1-2-5-1-5 throughout.

Of course you cannot use these fingerings throughout because the Lh does change patterns but for the opening 2 pages it is used very much.

Berezovsky seems to be trading back and forth between mine and the 2-1-2-5-1-5 (even more mentally complicated), while Kissin seems to occasionally throw in a 1-2-3 instead of a 3-2-1.  So, there are a couple more options there; seems like it's not exactly as set in stone as you might like to think.

When I see Berezovsky I notice his LH (although it is hard to see with the camera angle until the end of the passage where it is very clear) the 12 fingerings maintain a constant shape, which pushes me to believe he is not making any fingers cross over the thumb in the LH. The video of Kissin when he was in his teens I also notice the LH 12 shape does not change and this video is more easier to observe.

Anyway, of course my fingering (or theirs) is more difficult.  It's more difficult for the first 30 seconds.  Yours is more difficult for the last 2 and a half minutes.

It is a fingering that is applied predominantly for the beginning, later on there are other LH figures to deal with. Of them all the hardest of which is when the LH does repeated notes at the bottom and top of a 3 octave arpeggio pattern (in almost all recordings [including the Kissin and Berezovsky] the pianist does not phrase these repeated notes or treat them musically which denies some breadth of the music).