tense palm - bent pinky

[boywander]

Hi

I know its an issue thats been discussed here in the past,
and i think its a common issue,
that some of you can surely help me with.

I have a student, a 17 year old young lady, learning piano little over 2 years now.
very talented and motivated. advancing quickly. now we are working on Mozart's C major Sonata K545, and JS Bach's C minor Two Part Invention. (yes, corny, but classic).

But,
As fast as she's advancing, theres a fundemental technical issue she's having problems with. her palms are slightly tense, and her 5th finger (especially the weaker left hand) is involuntarily slightly bent. its most visible when she plays fast scales.
Slightly - its not an extreem condition.
but it holds her back.
Her general posture is good.

Now,
I'll admitt, her fingers are somewhat weak, in general, and maybe the Mozart was a bit too techincal for this stage.
I'm starting to work with her on Czerny velocity etudes, hoping it will build her up.

Does anyone have an insight, a metaphore, a utility, an exercise, that may resolve the unwanted tension?
am i on the right track - building up finger strength?

thanks in advance,
Vander

[pianisten1989]

I am no teacher, but the only way that've helped me is to play everything very slow, adn without any tension. After a while it was gone..

[sitbon09]

I'd have to concur.  Unless its medical then it must be technical.  When her hands rest at her sides standing or do other domestic things, making a cup of tea, for example,  does the pinky stay out?  I'd do some simple retraining focusing on simply resting the hand on the keyboard, releasing through the arm, hand and testing freedom with some Taubman 'rotation' exercises.  Does she feel tension anywhere else?  Is she holding tension?  Does she feel balanced between the right and left arms?

When she is playing also get her to ask for freedom, softness in the palm as she plays.  Also try some wrist drops ensuring her hand closes when coming up and out of the keyboard.


Andrew

[keyboardclass]

Though popular, I really don't think Bach or Mozart suits beginners/intermediate.  Chopin and beyond requires a modern relaxed technique, I'd go with that.

[stevebob]

A couple of things caught my attention here that I'm curious to know more about.

As fast as she's advancing, theres a fundemental technical issue she's having problems with. her palms are slightly tense, and her 5th finger (especially the weaker left hand) is involuntarily slightly bent. its most visible when she plays fast scales.
Slightly - its not an extreem condition.
but it holds her back.

How does the issue with "slightly bent" pinky fingers hold her back?  I've seen some highly skilled pianists whose pinkies curl under involuntarily at times; I assumed it was both common and inconsequential.

Also, how are you able to determine that she has tenseness in her palms?

I'll admitt, her fingers are somewhat weak, in general, and maybe the Mozart was a bit too techincal for this stage....

am i on the right track - building up finger strength?

In this context, does "weak" mean literal weakness (i.e., the absence of strength) or rather an issue with coordination and control?  Does "strength" need to be built literally, or does she lack dexterity?

I'm not a teacher, and I don't have any answers.  I was just interested in clarification of these few points if you happen to get around to it.

[quantum]

None of Bach's music is corny!  

***

Is she fully aware of her 5th fingers and what they are doing?  Does this tension happen in all playing or only in certain types of technique?  Does this tension crop up when her attention is diverted to other things such as music or other technical difficulties?

Have her play slowly, very slowly with total concentration on her 5th fingers.  

I've never been a proponent of the curled 5th finger position such as Hoffmann writes in his book or as can be seen in Horowitz vids. I've always felt it is an extraneous muscular exertion.  It takes far less energy to extend the pinky outwards creating an "open hand" rather than curling in and out as the finger is needed.  As an example: try repeatedly curling in and out the 5th fingers, compare with holding the 5th fingers out in an extended manner.  Which one tires you out more?  Which one do you think you could do for an extended amount of time?

Try having her extend her pinkys and think of an "open hand".  Don't worry if she over does it at first, it is much better than a tense and bent pinky.  Also keep an eye on her forearms and wrists.  The muscles than control the fingers are located here, and may be the source of a lot of tension.

Specifically ask here if she feels tense.  Point to parts of her arm and hand, ask "do you feel tense here?"  Do the dead arm exercise.  Shaking loose the hand and arm is good for "resetting" tense muscles. 

[keyboardclass]

 

I've always felt it is an extraneous muscular exertion.  It takes far less energy to extend the pinky outwards creating an "open hand" rather than curling in and out as the finger is needed.

It takes far less energy to do none of the above.

[quantum]

It takes far less energy to do none of the above.

And would you elaborate how your comment would help this particular student's situation.

[keyboardclass]

To tense in neither direction?  Go's without saying though plenty of pros do.  On violin I often see the left index finger stuck in the air in advanced players - drives me nuts.  The real problem here is the Bach.  It would be better to study modern piano music (Chopin and after).

[quantum]

The student in question is playing with a technical ailment.  To do nothing different with the body in this case would mean that she continues playing in the same manner.  Changing the repertoire will only allow the student to continue these tense motions with different pieces.  The bodily motions need to be directly addressed. 

Muscles work in pairs, one tenses while the other relaxes.  There always exists a ratio of tense:relaxed muscles.  The concept teachers often inform students to as the absence of tension is better described as the absence of unnecessary tension. 

Given I have not witnessed the student in question playing in person thus only have a very rough idea of how issues involved, I have had students whose playing fits this description. Where fingers 1 and 2 are extended while fingers 3, 4 and 5, are increasingly flexed.  It makes for a lopsided hand and more control over 1 and 2, versus increasingly less control over 3, 4, and 5.  Such students generally try to jam the flexed fingers 3, 4 and 5 into the keys to try and achieve even playing that results in even more tension build up.  In such cases the student needs to discover freedom in the knuckle joint and nail joint of these fingers.  Asking the student to extend their pinky points them in such direction.  Much more freedom of movement and greater leverage is possible with an extended finger as opposed to a flexed finger, ergo expanded tonal palette.

Many pros play in pain and suck it up as part of the job.  There is no reason to tolerate this. 

I've witnessed several musicians place the look of their hands and arms over efficiency in movement.  I find such ideas to be nonsense.  The function of the fingers rates much much higher in importance than the aesthetic appeal of their hand position.  Am I suggesting that good technique looks ugly, not at all - I am saying that technical choices based purely on aesthetic appeal is in bad taste and are potentially hazardous to a musicians physical health.  Good looks do not produce good tone, but functional fingers and knowledgeable technique do. 

[keyboardclass]

Lots to disagree with there!  I'll start with aesthetics.  A beautiful hand is an efficient hand.  Nature grows only beauty, it's when we take hold (pardon the pun) that it turns ugly.  Each time you use a finger/hand put it back afterwards!  That's why we should start with Chopin - he enables that.  To keep the hand beautiful in Bach is an advanced technique.

[quantum]

Lots to disagree with there!  

Likewise!

I'll start with aesthetics.  A beautiful hand is an efficient hand.  Nature grows only beauty, it's when we take hold (pardon the pun) that it turns ugly.  

Do you see the irony in this statement?  Humans are part of nature, you are saying beauty itself creates ugliness. Beauty is relative - as the saying goes: it is in the eye of the beholder.

"Beauty in things exists merely in the mind which contemplates them."
--David Hume

"A beautiful hand" is not an accurate description of good technique.  It is an opinion of aesthetic pleasure.  While good technique may result in a beautiful hand, a beautiful hand will not always result in sound technical execution.  It does not fall under the compliance class of good technique. 

An otherwise healthy looking person could have cancer.  Is such person beautiful in appearance - arguably so; but is such person' s body functioning properly - obviously not.  It is not enough to look at the beauty of the hand when playing to achieve good technique, one must also look into how well the hand is working. 

A functional hand is an efficient hand.  Beauty of the hand should result from its functionality, not the other way around.  We are not playing piano to look pretty, we are playing to make beautiful sounds.  

That's why we should start with Chopin - he enables that.  

You keep saying this but do not give warrants to your claim or examples.  

To keep the hand beautiful in Bach is an advanced technique.

And to play Chopin is not advanced technique?

[keyboardclass]

Likewise!

Do you see the irony in this statement?  Humans are part of nature, you are saying beauty itself creates ugliness.

No, man has a foot in both camps so he's capable of throwing in spanners.  Do you really think man knows how to operate a hand?

And to play Chopin is not advanced technique?

Chopin said the fingers, hand, wrist and arm should be used within their conformity (Comme il faut utiliser la conformation des doigts, il faut non moins utiliser le reste de la main, c'est le poignet, l'avant-bras et le bras.)  and as such, as I'm sure you're aware, he started students on the B scale.

[quantum]

Do you really think man knows how to operate a hand?

If man did not know how to operate a hand how did you type that message?

Chopin said the fingers, hand, wrist and arm should be used within their conformity (Comme il faut utiliser la conformation des doigts, il faut non moins utiliser le reste de la main, c'est le poignet, l'avant-bras et le bras.)  and as such, as I'm sure you're aware, he started students on the B scale.

Chopin was teaching technique here.  Why do you think this technique is not applicable to playing Bach? 

[keyboardclass]

To use the body only takes will, the rest is carried out behind the scenes.  Do you honestly think you could operate a body?  Bach played on the edge of the keys with fingertips in a line.  To do this he had to curl his fingers to quite an extent - it's a experienced technique.

[quantum]

To use the body only takes will, the rest is carried out behind the scenes. 

Again, an overly generalized statement.  Not all parts of the body work the same.  To use our digits, hands, wrists, forearms, elbows, shoulders, and balance of our torso in playing the piano takes more than will.  Sure you could "will" them in to performing but this will not bring you to a higher understanding of how your body works and how you can continually improve the efficiency and refinement of movement.  Telling a student to "will" their body into actions is a vague course of action.  Pointing out exacting descriptions of what their body is doing, what is causing technical ailments and pain, and what they need to do in order to improve their technique is much more beneficial. 

Bach played on the edge of the keys with fingertips in a line.  To do this he had to curl his fingers to quite an extent - it's a experienced technique.

Do you have an idea of why he did this?  Have you played baroque organs or keyboard instruments?  Physical dimensions of keys and pedal boards on such instruments are different to the modern piano - they require a different technique and that the performer adapt to the dimensions of the instrument. 

[keyboardclass]

To use our digits, hands, wrists, forearms, elbows, shoulders, and balance of our torso in playing the piano takes more than will.  Sure you could "will" them in to performing but this will not bring you to a higher understanding of how your body works and how you can continually improve the efficiency and refinement of movement.

It all starts with will.  To get involved beyond that point is counterproductive.  Balance and use of limbs happens quite naturally if left to themselves - good posture is best attained away from the piano.  Apart from the counter-intuition that muscles can't push, the rest should work pretty automatically.  You need to know as much physiology/anatomy as possible so as not to interfere.

To think that key length was responsible for technique is just silly.  I play clavichord, it's the other way round.  As hands relaxed keys got longer.  

[quantum]

It all starts with will.  To get involved beyond that point is counterproductive.  

To stop at that point is to build yourself a glass ceiling - a barrier to further understanding.  It would be counterproductive for those that chose not to learn more.

Balance and use of limbs happens quite naturally if left to themselves - good posture is best attained away from the piano.  

It happens in most cases, but not all.  We would like to kid ourselves into thinking that our body just takes care of itself without further thought processes, but this is not the case.  Natural is a relative term.  What may feel natural may not always be optimal.  In our present student scenario, this "curved" pinky may feel completely natural to the student because this is the only sensation she is aware of.  The tension becomes a naturalized sensation.  The student must be made aware of a finger movement that is more beneficial to playing the piano that the one she currently uses and perceives to be natural.  To rely on serendipity for the body to form "natural" movements by itself is negligent.  

To think that key length was responsible for technique is just silly.  I play clavichord, it's the other way round.  As hands relaxed keys got longer.  

Physical dimensions of instruments and the technique needed to play them have a reciprocal relationship.  This is not a one way relationship.  I play organ am familiar with the challenges in adapting to keyboards of different characteristics.

[keyboardclass]

It happens in most cases, but not all.  We would like to kid ourselves into thinking that our body just takes care of itself without further thought processes, but this is not the case.  Natural is a relative term.  What may feel natural may not always be optimal.

There's a difference between what feels natural and what is.  I read a good Chinese proverb the other day - Who you wish to be is your tension, who you are relaxation.  The student in question's problem is not what she is doing but that she is doing.  You seem bent on replacing one unnecessary tension with another.

[quantum]

There's a difference between what feels natural and what is.  

Both of these notions are still filtered through perception.  There cannot exist a universal definition of what is "natural" that spans every being.

You seem bent on replacing one unnecessary tension with another.

Again, the bodys muscles work because of tension.  Tension is not the enemy, rather the improper use of it is.  The problem here is that the word "tension" is being used with multiple meanings.  Music teachers would describe to a student tension as a tightening, uncomfortable sensation, and the opposite state of relaxation.  This is fine, it is easily absorbed by a student.  But we also have to remember muscles work on the tension:relaxation premise as well.  Merely lifting your arms to place them on top of the keyboard creates tension in some muscles, yet relaxation in others.  Is such an uncomfortable, unhealthy movement - in most cases it would not be.  So we have healthy productive tension, and unhealthy destructive and impeding tension.  It is this negative tension that needs to be removed in this student's case.  A movement that only utilizes positive tension as it pertains to piano playing needs to be employed.  

[keyboardclass]

Both of these notions are still filtered through perception.  There cannot exist a universal definition of what is "natural" that spans every being.

There's no point having a notion of what's natural.  The Tao that is a notion is not the real Tao!

Again, the bodys muscles work because of tension.  Tension is not the enemy, rather the improper use of it is.

Obviously what I mean by unnecessary tension.  As far as Chopin was concerned the hand should rest on the keyboard in is natural conformity.  Neither curled nor its opposite.  

[quantum]

There's no point having a notion of what's natural. 

Of course there is, especially if it figures in to part of one's claim.  In this case you claim

There's a difference between what feels natural and what is. 

What is the point to make a claim if the terms used in such statement have no definition. 

In essence the statement: "There's no point having a notion of what's natural" nullifies the previous claim "there's a difference between what feels natural and what is."

As far as Chopin was concerned the hand should rest on the keyboard in is natural conformity.  Neither curled nor its opposite. 

Granted.  Now what about the position of the hand as it plays?  Being at rest and being in the midst of activity do not require the same muscular and skeletal states. 

[keyboardclass]

In essence the statement: "There's no point having a notion of what's natural" nullifies the previous claim "there's a difference between what feels natural and what is."

Not at all.  Just because you have no notion of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist or affect you.

Granted.  Now what about the position of the hand as it plays?  Being at rest and being in the midst of activity do not require the same muscular and skeletal states. 

But the student's finger curls when it isn't in the midst of activity - isn't that the problem?

[quantum]

But the student's finger curls when it isn't in the midst of activity - isn't that the problem?

Please read more carefully the original posters description of the problem:

But,
As fast as she's advancing, theres a fundemental technical issue she's having problems with. her palms are slightly tense, and her 5th finger (especially the weaker left hand) is involuntarily slightly bent. its most visible when she plays fast scales.
Slightly - its not an extreem condition.
but it holds her back.
Her general posture is good.

[keyboardclass]

its most visible when she plays fast scales.

As far as I'm aware you don't use 5 much on scales.  The teacher in question should spend some time doing Chopin's B scale for RH and E scale for LH with her.