Why so much Schumann hatred?

[frank_48]

There are 3 kinds of musicians:
Homosexuals, Jews, and bad musicians.

Since I'm not religious, I'm thinking about watching gay porn until I like it...

o.................kay...

...i cant see how that is relevant to schumann...

whatever floats your boat.... i guess..

[pianisten1989]

.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Certainly food for thought -and I know the scores you quote here- but go back to Liszt and you'll find all of T's tricks, just filtered through a far greater musical mind.  Doesn't make any difference who came up with it first -though I suspect Liszt and Thalberg were on to this around the same time- yet ultimately you might as well debate the merits of Meyerbeer vs Wagner.  Have at it...   

It's a matter of historical fact that Thalberg was there first. It's documented in the Liszt literature that he was in Switzerland and returned to Paris after Thalberg had created a sensation. Liszt is my favourite composer, but a simple look at the chronology of the paraphrases I have quoted demonstrates my point, so I think Thalberg's due some credit. Incidentally, Schumann was favourably disposed towards the Moses Fantasy (indeed, Clara is known to have played it in public), though perhaps that means I shouldn't like it.

[stevebob]

someone said he was gay so....

No one said Schumann was gay.  It was stated that his liaison with Ludwig Schunke, the dedicatee of the Toccata Op. 7, is "fairly well-documented" to have had a physical component, and it was postulated that there may have been other "homosexual encounters" as well.  Such curiosity and experimentation, if confirmed to be true, could be seen as evidence of bisexuality, but I don't think they're ultimately dispositive of one's sexual orientation.

The most important point is that gay, as a cultural construct and personal identity, didn't exist until relatively recently.  People have presumably had the same natures and innate characteristics throughout history, but criminal penalties, religious sanctions and social opprobrium would have been a very strong deterrent to acting upon same-sex impulses and proclivities (or even acknowledging them).

[argerichfan]

It's a matter of historical fact that Thalberg was there first. It's documented in the Liszt literature that he was in Switzerland and returned to Paris after Thalberg had created a sensation.

Yes, I know the history.  I agree that Thalberg probably came up with his 'trick' before Liszt, but even without Thalberg's example, it's something Liszt would have eventually developed on his own.  If not, his piano writing would have hit a dead-end. 

[ahinton]

I searched all over for this Busoni quote, and glad to say I found it.  I only publish this to show that Schumann hatred has a long history in music, and the current protagonists in this drama have many fathers.

"Schumann gets something of a knocking.  He deserves it... As for that Protestant person, that Saturday-evening stay-at-home, Sunday-afternoon sonata-player, stubbornly tedious sequence-repeater!  On the war-path against the Philistines!  Wasn't the imaginary inauguration of the Davidsbündler an act of Philistinism of the first order?!  The amateur of Zwickau!  His inane infatuation with Clara Wieck places him as great a remove from Liszt as the problems of a rural dean from that of the Pope."

---Ferrucio Busoni

However, from the same author's Sketch of a New Esthetic of Music, we read, in the context of some thoughts about the divining of an absolute music in which he refers to introductory and transitional passages as sometimes getting the closest to such a phenomenon and cites the introduction to the finale of Beethoven's "Hammerklavier" sonata:

"Even a Schumann (of so much lower stature) is seized, in such passages, by some feeling of the boundlessness of this pan-art (recall the transition to the finale of the D minor Symphony)..."

Even his "so much lower stature" caveat is in comparison to the Beethoven of the final piano sonatas - a lofty stature than which most of ours are, after all, "so much lower"...

Best,

Alistair

[dtao12]

This is true and I must admit that I am smugly complacent that the average Schumann Concerto lover needs to get out more. They are either pre teens that don't know any better or grandads too entrenched in their beliefs and too old or stubborn to consider changing their minds.

I do not need to be willfully ignorant as it comes naturally.

Hope that is musical enough for you.

Thal

Sadly, not at all musical enough. Smugly complacent, though, you nailed it there  The quote says much more about the commenter than the composer. I suppose that the pianists who recorded the concerto were all pre-teens who didn't get out enough? A small sampling of current pianists who recorded it are Richter, Fleisher, Zimerman, Argerich, Cliburn, Pollini, Perahia, Lupu, Kissin, Barenboim, Lipatti, Arrau, Serkin, Rubinstein.

I know plenty of people who are "bored" with classical music -- that doesn't make it bad. I don't know why I'm even bothering to write this, as if the quote above deserved a response...

[thalbergmad]

Learn how to use the quote buttons if you want to respond.

Thal

[ramseytheii]

Sadly, not at all musical enough. Smugly complacent, though, you nailed it there  Wink The quote says much more about the commenter than the composer. I suppose that the pianists who recorded the concerto were all pre-teens who didn't get out enough? A small sampling of current pianists who recorded it are Richter, Fleisher, Zimerman, Argerich, Cliburn, Pollini, Perahia, Lupu, Kissin, Barenboim, Lipatti, Arrau, Serkin, Rubinstein.

In a way your list helps to proving thalbergmad's point.  Why do so many damn people record the same things, and not something different?

I think at some point we really have to ask ourselves - especially if we are going to make a recording - what is the point of this?  Does the world need another recording of the Schumann concerto?  And I actually like the Schumann concerto.

BTW your list of current pianists appears to suffer from the same trend.  Cliburn hasn't played seriously in years; Lipatti has been dead for decades; Arrau, Serkin and Rubinstein have been dead for years.  They aren't "current pianists!"

Walter Ramsey

[stevebob]

Learn how to use the quote buttons if you want to respond.

Thal

Touché!  (The Preview and Modify buttons are handy, too.)

[thalbergmad]

Does the world need another recording of the Schumann concerto? 

Not really, there is already a multitiude to choose from.

What the world does need is a good recording of Rufinatscha, Gernsheim, Volkmann, Brassin, Godard, Rozycki, Zellner, Zelenski, Hopekirk etc.

Then, perhaps some people will forget Schumann concerto.

Incidently, I listened to Papillons over the weekend and rather enjoyed it.

Thal

[ahinton]

Incidently, I listened to Papillons over the weekend and rather enjoyed it.

I'd have thought that about as unlikely as the Green Party forming the next British government, but you never know, do you?! Who was playing? What do you make of the piano quintet? - and the Études Symphoniques (apart from its ghastly finale)?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I do not listen to chamber music. Simply not enough hours in the day to start getting into that as well. I will however, listen to one Schumann piece a month.

Tonight, I have Lennox Berkeley to keep me company.

Thal

[ahinton]

I do not listen to chamber music. Simply not enough hours in the day to start getting into that as well. I will however, listen to one Schumann piece a month.

Well, that last part at least shows that your anti-Schumann prejudices do not prevent you from realising that you might change your mind about certain works, which is a most desirably healthy attitude if I may say so.

But why do you not listen to chamber music in principle? Do you even eschew the idea of letting your ears wrap themselves around the chamber works of some of those (mostly early) 19th century Romantic composers some of whose other music you work so tirelessly to champion? You're missing something here, surely?!

Tonight, I have Lennox Berkeley to keep me company.

I'm not even going to answer that!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

But why do you not listen to chamber music in principle?

It is purely a matter of time.

I detest listening with headphones, so my listening time is restricted to about 4 hours a week at the moment.

Too much music and not enough time.

Thal

[ahinton]

It is purely a matter of time.

I detest listening with headphones, so my listening time is restricted to about 4 hours a week at the moment.

Too much music and not enough time.

Well, that problem inevitably and sadly affects us all, but why single out chamber music for the chop as a consequence of the way in which it affects you?

Best,

Alistair

[dtao12]

Thal, to find a probable point of agreement among us, I assume by your screen name that you must like Thalberg. While I haven't heard much of him, I really like his Don Pasquale Fantasy and its "three hand" effect, which Liszt also used in his Norma fantasy and others.  .

Thanks for the replies and for pointing out that I need to figure out the tools like the quote button better. I tried the preview and it's up above my post somehow only showing a single line with a scrollbar so I'm unable to see all the lines -- strange "preview." At least I'm not trying to quote this time.

Yes, Walter, I know some of the pianists I mentioned are like Lipatti, Rubinstein, Serkin, etc., are deceased, and that I should have written "currently available recordings" rather than "current pianists" but that was after I had already clicked "post". And yes, no doubt certain concerti including Schumann's are recorded more than necessary, whereas others could use more recordings.

But that does not at all invalidate the main point, which was that great pianists respect the piece -- and Thal has still not given a single musical reason why the concerto is so bad, except that he just doesn't like it. Actually, when there are so many (perhaps unnecessary) recordings, it may even more strengthen the point that the pianists must truly respect the piece, to record it anyway, when their sales are going to be diluted by all the competition.

And I think the Schumann Piano Quartet and Quintet are great pieces too!

Regards,

David

[gep]

Quote from: thalbergmad on April 26, 2010, 05:23:18 PM
Tonight, I have Lennox Berkeley to keep me company.

I'm not even going to answer that!

Best,

Alistair

Why not, if I may ask? I have L Berkeley's Concerto's (for 1 piano and 2, respectively) and his first two symphonies. I'd not rank them at the top best of music I've ever heard, but they are nice to hear once in a while.

It is purely a matter of time.

I detest listening with headphones, so my listening time is restricted to about 4 hours a week at the moment.

Too much music and not enough time.

Thal

While I disagree with you on headphones (I prefer them!), the matter of time is an issue that I can only, and sadly, agree with.... So much music, so little time....

gep

[ahinton]

I'm not even going to answer that!


Why not, if I may ask? I have L Berkeley's Concerto's (for 1 piano and 2, respectively) and his first two symphonies. I'd not rank them at the top best of music I've ever heard, but they are nice to hear once in a while.

Berkeley's work is OK; the purpose of my reference here was to suggest that it seemed rather odd for it to be mentioned in the context of Thal's Schumannerisms! The first two symphonies are among Berkeley's better work, I think - the third one is perhaps one of his finest achievements - but I cannot help but get the impression that Berkeley, for all his elegance and wit, can sometimes seem rather underpowered compared to the best work of his immediate English contemporaries Bush, Rubbra, Walton, Tippett and even Rawsthorne (but that's just a personal opinion); indeed, there are times when one could almost mistake Berkeley for a French composer! (although I don't, of course, intend that to be taken as any kind of pejorative).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Actually, when there are so many (perhaps unnecessary) recordings, it may even more strengthen the point that the pianists must truly respect the piece, to record it anyway, when their sales are going to be diluted by all the competition.

There could be many reasons why many pianists have recorded the Schumann concerto.

1. Some pianists think it is a great work
2. It is commercially viable
3. They have been told to do so
4. They are unaware of alternatives
5. Difficulty of obtaining performance materials for alternatives

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The reason for mentioning Berkeley was to illustrate that I am prepared to give something new a chance, rather than to continually listen to works that I like.

Therefore, I am suggesting that Schumann Concerto lovers might benefit from taking a chance on something they have not heard.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Does it really matter who has recorded the Schumann piano concerto? Plenty have recorded the 2nd Beethoven concerto; that doesn't make it any better. The Schumann is just one of the "acceptable" concerti and consequently gets far more recording time than it deserves.

[ahinton]

There could be many reasons why many pianists have recorded the Schumann concerto.

1. Some pianists think it is a great work
2. It is commercially viable
3. They have been told to do so
4. They are unaware of alternatives
5. Difficulty of obtaining performance materials for alternatives

There's no accounting for 1.
You'd think that, with the sheer plethora of recorded versions of it since recording began, 2. would no longer apply.
3. is probably closest to the "correct answer".
Even pianists aren't such an ignorant breed as to make 4. any kind ofpossibility!
If Hyperion's Romantic Concerto series (now at 50 products and still going) and Naxos's British one alone are anything to go by, 5. simply doesn't apply.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

5. simply doesn't apply.

Well, I feel the situation is improving and more hitherto unrecorded works are being recorded now than 20 years ago.

But i still wonder how many record companies are prepared to have working editions made from manuscripts and to spend considerable amounts of time wading through archives to find performance materials for works which at first glance only appear to exist in solo or 2p format.

Thal

[ahinton]

Well, I feel the situation is improving and more hitherto unrecorded works are being recorded now than 20 years ago.

But i still wonder how many record companies are prepared to have working editions made from manuscripts and to spend considerable amounts of time wading through archives to find performance materials for works which at first glance only appear to exist in solo or 2p format.

The record companies don't always or even necessarily put their financial weight (if they have any) behind that kind of thing but if grants are made available and other people are prepared to do the necessary legwork with or without their benefit, then those record companies at least stand some chance of being able to make such recordings.

Best,

Alistair

[oxy60]

I just stumbled onto this thread. The issue is that we have very little idea of how people behaved and thought in that bygone era. His music speaks to those ideas. To us it makes little sense. I've had the chance to get a flavor of those times reading biographies of some of the people. I'm still not sure of what he was saying.

[stevebob]

I just stumbled onto this thread. The issue is that we have very little idea of how people behaved and thought in that bygone era. His music speaks to those ideas. To us it makes little sense. I've had the chance to get a flavor of those times reading biographies of some of the people. I'm still not sure of what he was saying.

I don't get what "makes little sense" (or to whom).  Maybe this is a measure of my own complete ignorance, but it would never occur to me that the music of Schumann or his contemporaries (or indeed any music of any era) doesn't make sense just because times were different then.

It seems to me that music transcends both time and the human affairs of the composer who wrote it.  Biographies are nice for anyone who seeks to understand a composer's artistic milieu or gain insight into his personality, but I don't see how they're relevant to comprehending the music itself.

[thalbergmad]

but it would never occur to me that the music of Schumann or his contemporaries (or indeed any music of any era) doesn't make sense just because times were different then.

Not sure about making sense, but tastes definately change over time.

Was not Telemann considered superior to Bach and did not Hunten sell more scores than Chopin??

Would Liszt in all his glory fail to get past the first round of the Leeds piano competition??

Thal

[ahinton]

but tastes definately change over time

So does speling* in some quarters - definitiely so!

Was not Telemann considered superior to Bach

Indeed he was, by sufficient numbers of people who had heard the work of both (and indeed Telemann WAS superior to Bach if the parameter was that of churning out scores by the kilogram)...

and did not Hunten sell more scores than Chopin??

I believe that this was also true (though for how long I'm less certain).

Would Liszt in all his glory fail to get past the first round of the Leeds piano competition??

Oh, surely not! I don't somehow even see him making a pass at Fanny Waterman either! Liszt's only problem there would be in the final if he were competing against Alkan (not that one could imagine Alkan's temperament allowing him to get in a position that would necessitate his "competing" against anyone).

Of course tastes change, as you say - and, with them, the fate of various composers' music. One has only to consider the sheer variety of composers whose work many of us might now take for granted as "established" repertoire have fared over the years. Alkan, Mahler, Busoni, Sibelius, Godowsky, Vaughan Williams, Medtner, Sorabji, Tippett - the list goes on (but I won't!) - it's a fickle and unpredictable situation and has long been so; the only difference today, perhaps, is that many composers who appear to have fallen out of favour for the time being might still be quite well represented on disc.

Best,

Alistair


* a spelling used more than once by Benjamin Britten, who admitted that spelling was not one of his strong points

[gep]

At least we live in a time when we have the great big luck that there are fine recordings of even very rarely (if ever) heard music, so that music that has a (very) little audience can still reach that audience if only by way of recording (assuming there are performers and companies willing to explore outside of that rusted Iron repertoire. Happily, such exist!). Before recordings came along music that wasn't played was factually "dead".

As for Schumann, at least his music in general and the Piano Concerto in particular, hasn't gone down the terrible road of a "Vivaldi Four Seasons" in that he at least doesn't suffer from how each and every (wannabe) pianist who at least can find the front end of the blasted thing in three goes "needs" to record it, as seems the case with (usually undulative female) violinists in Vivaldi's case.

Personal taste is as it is, and what speaks to one does so, and what doens't speak to one doesn't. At least be open minded enough to actually find out what speaks to you and what not, rather than have your tastes based on such things as general opinion, reviews, critics and whatnot.

Was not Telemann considered superior to Bach

Hmm, the city council of Leipzig choose Bach as 3rd choice, after Telemann and another had rejected the post. "Because we could not get the best we must make due with the mediocre", as one council member opinionated. Which translates roughly as "because we could not get cardboard we must make due with gourmet food". That said, Telemann's orchestral Suites are quite nice. But I've also heard several of his 1600(+?) church Cantatas. There is a perceivable difference in quality with Bach's.....

Telemann WAS superior to Bach if the parameter was that of churning out scores by the kilogram

Which he did twice a day if I'm right....

gep

[gep]

Quote from: pianisten1989 on April 18, 2010, 07:01:57 PM
There are 3 kinds of musicians:
Homosexuals, Jews, and bad musicians.

And JS Bach fits that bill how, exactly?

[ramseytheii]

Quote from: pianisten1989 on April 18, 2010, 07:01:57 PM
There are 3 kinds of musicians:
Homosexuals, Jews, and bad musicians.

Haha, that's an old Horowitz quote.  Nobody seems to have caught that.

Some would argue that he fits into all three categories.

Walter Ramsey

[stevebob]

Two out of three ain't bad.   

[aslanov]

It almost certainly would not. I leave that to those that have had musical instruction and are able to explain themselves in musical terms.

What i will say is that is it bores me senseless and I lose interest after about 3 bars due to lack of melodic invention. The last movement is worse than Chinese water torture.

I do not have a problem with people that like this turd of a concerto, but i suspect they are the same kind that prattle on about "moonlight" and "Fur Elise" and are totally incapable of experimenting with works that their 90 year old teacher did not tell them about.

Thal

Thal, I do tend to agree with you in most of your opinions;
This thread reminds me of a lecture i went to, given by anton kuerti, and he addressed this very issue; I can't remember exactly, but his reasoning for why he likes schumann's work, is his beautiful melodies; he addresses certain theoretical drawbacks, how its not very innovative, but he holds that there is nothing wrong with playing a piece because it sounds beautiful; which I also admit, schumann's concerto, as well as many of his solo piano works, do.

P.S. I love schumann's concerto, and im sick to death with moonlight sonata, fur elise, Fantasie impromptu, liebestraum...etc, etc, etc; I'd like to think I have a musical mind of my own, seeing as how all my interest and taste has developed as a result of my own drive, not my teacher.

[dtao12]

aslanov, I agree w. you about the many beautiful Schumann melodies.
The concerto's last movement is quite nice -- it soars, though my favorite part is the second theme of the opening movement. Schumann uses lots of syncopation (almost "ska-like" at times), maybe a bit much, but at least it's a distinguishing characteristic.

I, too, form my own tastes, though I'm very grateful to my (long deceased) main teacher, who exposed me to a broad range from all periods, but not much Schumann (except Kinderscenen and Sonata #3). I decided to learn Toccata, Carnaval, Symphonic Etudes, and Fantasy on my own in my 20's after ceasing taking lessons. But as stated in some other threads, I'm thinking about and welcoming suggestions for Alkan. People seem to have similarly strong opinions about him too (and about his prominent proponent Marc Hamelin) -- some he's stupendously great, others that he's essentially sound and fury signifying nothing. I guess everyone has their opinions, and people can state their reasons, or not, that's their prerogative. I guess it's the music that draws no reaction whatsoever (like, "oh that's OK") that probably isn't going to be around for long, more than the pieces people love or hate.

One thing about whether pieces are overrecorded (which I agree the Schumann concerto is, but I disagree with the speculative reasons some have given). I'm just glad if people listen to it or classical music at all -- so few people have heard any of these pieces, even the warhorses, even once unless they're part of TV commercials or movies (which I don't think much Schumann is). Just the other day, a college student was very eager to get started listening to classical music, so I must have given him over a hundred recommendations from all periods. I had chosen Carnaval as the Schumann piece but just added the Piano Concerto  It was refreshing to see a young person spontaneously ask to be introduced to classical music. Some people hate opera too (not me, I love it, and also really like piano pieces based on operas, like Liszt's fantasies on Norma, Rigoletto, or Don Juan, or Thalberg's on Don Pasquale).

BTW, any tie between your screen name and the C.S. Lewis characterAslan?

David

[ramseytheii]

Thal, I do tend to agree with you in most of your opinions;
This thread reminds me of a lecture i went to, given by anton kuerti, and he addressed this very issue; I can't remember exactly, but his reasoning for why he likes schumann's work, is his beautiful melodies; he addresses certain theoretical drawbacks, how its not very innovative,

That's interesting!  What works precede Carnaval, Davidsbuendler, the Fantasie, Kreisleriana, etc, that make them imitations, rather than innovations?  I am dying to know!

Walter Ramsey

[aslanov]

That's interesting!  What works precede Carnaval, Davidsbuendler, the Fantasie, Kreisleriana, etc, that make them imitations, rather than innovations?  I am dying to know!

Walter Ramsey

I meant the concerto; he was talking about the concerto mostly, and how many people seem to have problems with it (and i think the first movement, especially). he's actually doing an all schumann solo recital to open up the summer music festival here in toronto.