Why so much Schumann hatred?

[malwambi]

I've read so many posts and comments that just shred Schumann to pieces.

Why?

Is it just a matter of personal taste?

Is his music theoretically bad?  If so, why has it survived so long?

Just curious...

[vviola]

Most of it is personal taste, but there are better composers.

[thalbergmad]

There is nothing worse in life than restrained romanticism, apart from a badly tuned banjo possibly.

My hatred of Schumann mainly stems from that God awful Concerto and its enduring popularity is a mystery to me. So many piano concerti from that period are rarely if at all played, and yet this pile of teutonic vomit is trotted out at every available opportunity. Not only is it intensely boring, but it has about as much romance and individuality as a Nazi SS guard. I hate its guts on a cellular basis and if i had a time machine i would go back and burn the manuscript.

I listened to Kriesleriana the other day without feeling depressed, but this turd of a concerto should be consigned to the flames of hell.

Thal

[stevebob]

I've read so many posts and comments that just shred Schumann to pieces.

Why?

Is it just a matter of personal taste?

Is his music theoretically bad?  If so, why has it survived so long?

Just curious...

Schumann-hatred (dang, that looks like one of those long compounded words that German is known for ) isn't universally shared, though my own cognizance doesn't extend much beyond his piano music.

His piano concerto isn't one of my favorites (especially from that period), but I don't think that makes it crap.  Even though I find the solo pieces to be of uneven quality, the best ones shine with such inspiration that they more than compensate for the weaker ones.

The main issue I would personally cite with Schumann's piano music is that I find a significant amount of it far less congenial to play than to listen to.  The passage of voices, whether melody or accompaniment, from one hand to the other is one such element I find unsympathetic.  The abundant use (and overuse) of dotted rhythms is another, and it can be grating even to the passive listener.

In Music for the Piano, James Friskin and Irwin Freundlich wrote:

Schumann's importance for the pianist almost approaches Chopin's.  As a composer he is equally original, so that a comprehensive survey of his work is called for.  Most of the compositions of his early life were pianoforte pieces, and almost from the start they have an astonishing romantic warmth and imagination, quite unlike anything that had appeared before....

Even though that was first written over a half-century ago, it still rings true for me, with the sole exception of the description of Schumann as equally original as Chopin.  I think his originality approaches that of Chopin, but the same can be said for many other composers as well—and a miss is as good as a mile.

[horowitzian]

There is nothing worse in life than restrained romanticism, apart from a badly tuned banjo possibly.

My hatred of Schumann mainly stems from that God awful Concerto and its enduring popularity is a mystery to me. So many piano concerti from that period are rarely if at all played, and yet this pile of teutonic vomit is trotted out at every available opportunity. Not only is it intensely boring, but it has about as much romance and individuality as a Nazi SS guard. I hate its guts on a cellular basis and if i had a time machine i would go back and burn the manuscript.

I listened to Kriesleriana the other day without feeling depressed, but this turd of a concerto should be consigned to the flames of hell.

Thal

That's a pretty low blow, there, to compare the Concerto to an SS guard. I confess that I prefer Schumann's solo piano works, his chamber music, and his symphonies over the piano concerto.

[lontano]

That's a pretty low blow, there, to compare the Concerto to an SS guard. I confess that I prefer Schumann's solo piano works, his chamber music, and his symphonies over the piano concerto.

It seems to me that the (vast?) majority of Schumann-bashing comes from the e-pen of Thalbergmad, who admits he has far more interest in piano concertos than solo piano, which might be hindering the overall value of his general critique. His admission that he was able to listen to Kriesleriana "without feeling depressed" is the first time (for me) to hear him say anything but the greatest of negative feelings toward Schumann. Now if he spent a bit more time assessing solo works of composers who he disdains purely on the value of their concertos, he might actually find some really great music from the pens of people who may not have written the best concertos (it's possible  ). Thal says he hates the Schumann concerto on a cellular level. Personally, I am not overall a big fan of Schumann's music in general, but more on a glandular level. As a kid I really didn't enjoy learning much of anything of Schumann that I could play (or what I heard), and that's just my glands opinion. It has nothing to do with the quality or technique, etc of the music; it just doesn't move me in the way Chopin, Schubert, Mendelssohn and others from the 1st half of the 19th century do. There are a few Schumann works I really do like, but the concerto isn't one of them  .

Lontano

[lostinidlewonder]

Personally I think Schumann's melodies are the most beautiful ever written and so many of them. There is nothing wrong with this composer one bit, his music is extremely difficult to play well because we can sound formulated but when played well it is certainly a unique musical experience.

Winning! Or as the Russians would say it... Vinnink!

[ramseytheii]

There is nothing worse in life than restrained romanticism, apart from a badly tuned banjo possibly.

Have you read "Thank You, Jeeves?"  Wooster is addicted in this one to a "banjolele" which I guess is a miniature banjo in the shape of a ukulele.  Have you heard of such a thing?

Walter Ramsey

[horowitzian]

[...]
I listened to Kriesleriana the other day without feeling depressed, [...]

I just had a thought...who was the pianist? Very few pianists are capable of really bringing off Kreisleriana convincingly.

Horowitz is the best at Kreisleriana IMHO.

Bootleg recording from a live 1968 performance. Quite good sound for an audience recording. Part II Part III If it weren't for the less-than-ideal sound inherent in bootlegs, I would definitely like this better than his authorized recordings of the set.

[thalbergmad]

I just had a thought...who was the pianist? Very few pianists are capable of really bringing off Kreisleriana convincingly.

Horowitz is the best at Kreisleriana IMHO.

Indeed that was the recording I listened to.

I am going to re listen to a few other pieces that i have not heard for yonks, but i admit i would rather be listening to pieces i have yet to hear.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Have you read "Thank You, Jeeves?"  Wooster is addicted in this one to a "banjolele" which I guess is a miniature banjo in the shape of a ukulele.  Have you heard of such a thing?

Walter Ramsey

Please see pictures thread.

Thal

[ahinton]

Please see pictures thread.

Perhaps Schumann's piano concerto might sound better to some ears were it to be transcribed for one of these instruments; now there's a useful task to occupy you for a while rather than downing pint ofter pint of that brown stuff!

Best,

Alistair

[horowitzian]

Indeed that was the recording I listened to.

I am going to re listen to a few other pieces that i have not heard for yonks, but i admit i would rather be listening to pieces i have yet to hear.

Thal

You may come 'round yet. I used to hate Prokofiev in a similar way...but one day the light just came on. 

[argerichfan]

You may come 'round yet.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch... 

[horowitzian]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch... 

Hehe, I won't! 

[slow_concert_pianist]

Some might argue it is "karma".

Schumann was not only a selfish (self important), sarcastic individual with repugnant opinions, but wound up to the point of derangement (He permenantly damaged him hands in an attempt to defy God and eventually wound up insane - although definitions for "insanity" were wildly different in his day).

He judged others unfairly in his day and now he is judged unfairly in our time. Personally, I think he offers a wonderful insight into mid-romanticism and everyone has the right to adore his works. For me, his 2nd symphony is breath taking. But that's me!

[jinfiesto]

This is odd, I really enjoy his works. And I disagree when someone mentioned he was a "restrained" romantic. To me he seems to embody the ideal. I prefer the Schumann concerto to the Grieg (They bear remarkable similarities) and the Carnaval is one of my favorite works.

[pianisten1989]

Some might argue it is "karma".

Schumann was not only a selfish (self important), sarcastic individual with repugnant opinions

And no other composer was like that, eh?

, but wound up to the point of derangement (He permenantly damaged him hands in an attempt to defy God and eventually wound up insane - although definitions for "insanity" were wildly different in his day).

It was not to "Defy God".. It was because he thought he came up with the perfect idea to practise technique. And so, he did his excercises (by putting wodden block between his fingers or something), and ofc it didn't work.

He judged others unfairly in his day and now he is judged unfairly in our time. Personally, I think he offers a wonderful insight into mid-romanticism and everyone has the right to adore his works. For me, his 2nd symphony is breath taking. But that's me!

Liszt, Chopin and mozat also weren't perfect ppl.. But that didn't affect them, did it?


I think it's because his music is very... spontaneous, and that can sound like crap if one doesn't plan how to sound spontanous, without over-doing it.. So it's really difficult.

[ponken]

I like Schumann. Especially his Träumerei.

[thalbergmad]

Don't worry, I am sure you will grow out of it

Thal

[keyboardclass]

I wouldn't call it hatred, I just find his music unnecessarily stodgy.

[thalbergmad]

Excellent description.

[stevebob]

If anyone who characterizes Schumann's music as "stodgy" would care to elaborate, I'd be interested in hearing more:  which pieces could be so described, I wonder, and in what ways?

In the quotation I posted previously from Music for the Piano, Friskin and Freundlich depict Schumann's piano music as having "astonishing romantic warmth and imagination."  I would go so far as to say it tends to teem with a frank, uninhibited exuberance—so I find it remarkable that different people would hear the same music and have such antipodal feelings about its musical character.

In the interest of clarification, then:  are we talking about Schumann's piano music here, or something else?  And in either case, which compositions in particular?

[argerichfan]

There's nothing stodgy about Carnival, especially in the hands of a titan like Rachmaninov! 

Even the much maligned (on this board) piano concerto I could never think of as stodgy.  Of maybe I'm just missing something here... 

[keyboardclass]

If anyone who characterizes Schumann's music as "stodgy" would care to elaborate, I'd be interested in hearing more: 

Too many notes my dear Schumann!

[ahinton]

Too many notes my dear Schumann!

To properly account for and seek to justify such a statement it would be necessary to indentify which notes in (at least some of) Schumann's scores are vital and which superfluous, with detailed and credible reasons to support each contention; I have yet to witness anything that remotely resembles such an attempt here on this thread where some of the Schumann-bashers seem to presume that it is sufficient merely to bash Schumann without providing technical reasons why.

So - why don't you start this particular ball rolling?

Best,

Alistair

[gyzzzmo]

I like some of his compositions like 'Fantasiestücke' for violin/cello, but his/my main problem with his pieces that he's just missing 'rest', like he wants to fill up any free space with notes.
So Schumann, nice pieces, but just shut up now an then!

[keyboardclass]

To properly account for and seek to justify such a statement it would be necessary to indentify which notes in (at least some of) Schumann's scores are vital and which superfluous, with detailed and credible reasons to support each contention;

Hey, you must be just down the road! I'm in Bath at the moment.  Your request is kinda difficult and time consuming not to mention pretty unrewarding.  Did Mozart ask Joseph to point them out?  Not that I have cares of state to bother with.  Still who doesn't like a challenge?  Papillons - what's with the start of interesting counterpoint in LH bar 1 (A to G) to then leave it off till bar 6?  Who needs all those octaves in the right hand anyway?  Just for the headbanging effect?  Overall impression of Papillons - Schumann requires octaves when others are happy with just notes.  Bar 20 - 24 in no 6 - why the extra held D in the RH?  Much more effective to leave the interest in the middle unmolested.

[rienzi]

I guess Schumann's music has always provoked strong reactions. To Busoni he was "The amateur  of Zwickau" and Arnold Bax deplored the piano concerto; yet Moisewitsch stated that Schumann was the composer he most loved to play. Richter, too, had a special affinity with Schumann.
I suppose the real truth is that Schumann was an exceptionally uneven composer so that masterpieces like Carnaval and the Davidsbündlertänze jostle shoulders with awkward, negligible things like the Paganini studies rather more frequently than one would expect from a composer of his reputation. Some otherwise fine works like the F#minor Sonata and the Symphonic Etudes are spoiled by over-long, rhythmically repetitive finales.
For pianists, Schumann, who, of course, was not a concert performer, presents problems..so, too,  does Schubert... that Liszt, Chopin or Rachmaninov do not in that some of his music is very awkwardly written for the instrument. I have posted in the performance section of this forum stating how fatiguing to play I find the final movement of Carnaval....the sort of thing I find doesn't occur with more "pianistic" composers like those I have mentioned.

[ahinton]

Hey, you must be just down the road! I'm in Bath at the moment.  Your request is kinda difficult and time consuming not to mention pretty unrewarding.  Did Mozart ask Joseph to point them out?  Not that I have cares of state to bother with.  Still who doesn't like a challenge?  Papillons - what's with the start of interesting counterpoint in LH bar 1 (A to G) to then leave it off till bar 6?  Who needs all those octaves in the right hand anyway?  Just for the headbanging effect?  Overall impression of Papillons - Schumann requires octaves when others are happy with just notes.  Bar 20 - 24 in no 6 - why the extra held D in the RH?  Much more effective to leave the interest in the middle unmolested.

OK - well, this is a start - except that I have not been based in Bath since August 2008!

Best,

Alistair

[liordavid]

A lot of schumanns music is so repetetive. In my opinion, the first movement of the first piano sonata had pretty much nothing but chords. The tocatta is so difficult and agrivating to play. What is the point in composing pieces like this. Niether of these pieces really stand out. I have to admit, I do admire his piano quintet. I think that the only reason that he was famous was because he was a contemporary of Brahms and Liszt. 

[stevebob]

A lot of schumanns music is so repetetive. In my opinion, the first movement of the first piano sonata had pretty much nothing but chords. The tocatta is so difficult and agrivating to play. What is the point in composing pieces like this. Niether of these pieces really stand out. I have to admit, I do admire his piano quintet. I think that the only reason that he was famous was because he was a contemporary of Brahms and Liszt. 

Wow.  I believe Schumann's reputation as a musical genius would be well-deserved had he written nothing but the Toccata.

I think its difficulty is overrated.  If you don't have the requisite hand span, it would probably be an exercise in frustration and pointless to pursue.  Those who can reach a major tenth, though, should find the Toccata gratifying and surprisingly manageable.  I worked on it for several months last year and had a blast, although it was clear I wouldn't achieve the tempo of a professional performance.

I'm not aware of any basis for the suggestion that Schumann's fame was a consequence of connections to Brahms or Liszt.

[ahinton]

A lot of schumanns music is so repetetive. In my opinion, the first movement of the first piano sonata had pretty much nothing but chords. The tocatta is so difficult and agrivating to play. What is the point in composing pieces like this. Niether of these pieces really stand out. I have to admit, I do admire his piano quintet. I think that the only reason that he was famous was because he was a contemporary of Brahms and Liszt. 

Schumann was a contemporary of Liszt (and Chopin, Alkan, Mendelssohn, Verdi and Wagner) but Brahms was born more than two decades later. Please check your history books before making statements such as your last one here!

Best,

Alistair

[dtao12]

It's a matter of taste. I'm certainly not a Schumann hater. In fact, Schumann is one of my favorites -- Fantasie, Toccata, Symphonic Etudes, Carnaval, Sonata #3. Maybe there's some repetition and a certain "stamp" to his music, but I think that's the case with many other composers. To say there are better composers is a true statement, but that could be said about all composers except one! The Fantasie, in particular, has plenty of wonderful contrasts of light and dark, rest and turbulence.

[keyboardclass]

I think Mrs Schumann had a lot to do with promulgating his work.  Without her he may well have drifted into obscurity.

[rienzi]

I think Mrs Schumann had a lot to do with promulgating his work.  Without her he may well have drifted into obscurity.

That's an interesting observation!
It's quite true that the piano music is still the genre by which he is generally known. Although the symphonies are occasionally done his only opera and the big choral pieces are largely unknown and even the splendid "Manfred" music is known generally by the overture only. Of the lieder and the chamber-music just a few things are done with any regularity.
I get the impression, too, that Schumann's great contemporaries, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Chopin and Wagner showed no great enthusiasm for his music. Brahms' interest seemed to be directed as much in the direction of Clara's personal charms as in the music of her husband. It's certainly true that Schumann has had a number of detractors among later composers and performers, too.

Personally I'm glad that, if your idea is correct, Madame Schumann kept alive such music as Carnaval, Kreisleriana, the op12. Phantasy pieces and (dare I say it?) the Piano Concerto for posterity, as well as one of my favourite string pieces, the Cello Concerto.

[rienzi]

Just an extra thought on the idea that Madame Schumann was instrumental, in her rôle as teacher, for the promotion of her late husband's music by sending out a number of "torch-bearers" into the world to carry on her work.
Another great teacher, Leschetizky, who numbered amongst his students such luminaries as Schnabel, Paderewski, Brailowsky, Friedmann and Moiseiwitsch, apparently became very tired of students bringing along Schumann's Carnaval to his lessons and recommended that they play the "Carnaval Mignon" by Eduard Schütt (another of his pupils) instead; "That's a real carnival!" he was reputed to have said.
I suppose the moral of the story might be that, for all its charms (slight though they are) Schütt's Carnaval Mignon didn't really catch on with audiences or pianists in the way that the Schumann work did, and if the likes of Moisewitsch and Friedmann ever had it in their repertoires they soon dropped it, whereas the music of Schumann was retained.
Who knows, if Schumann hadn't had a champion in the form of his wife, his music might have drifted into obscurity....at least for a while. But if lesser composers (to my mind) like Alkan and Berwald have  been re-discovered and championed in the past 50 years or so, it seemes unlikely that Schumann's works would have lain gathering dust for ever.

[thalbergmad]

I think Mrs Schumann had a lot to do with promulgating his work.  Without her he may well have drifted into obscurity.

I guess it helps being married to a World Class pianist if you are a composer. Early in her career, Mrs Schumann played Henselt, Liszt and Thalberg, but perhaps Schumann turned her away from this music in an effort to promote his own.

I cannot warm to the man or his music. He said some unpleasant things about Berloiz and Herz and did not take criticism about his own works very well.

He was an all round tosser.

Thal

[rienzi]

I guess it helps being married to a World Class pianist if you are a composer. Early in her career, Mrs Schumann played Henselt, Liszt and Thalberg, but perhaps Schumann turned her away from this music in an effort to promote his own.

I cannot warm to the man or his music. He said some unpleasant things about Berloiz and Herz and did not take criticism about his own works very well.

He was an all round tosser.

Thal

It didn't help Marcel Mihalovici much being married to Monique Haas!  (Marcel who???)

As for saying unpleasant things about other composers, Chopin recommended that Moscheles be given an enema of Neukomm oratorios seasoned with a helping of Berlioz's Benvenuto Cellini.

Come to think of it, Wagner wasn't all that complimentary about many of his contemporaries, especially if they were Jewish. Saint_Saëns didn't seem to like anyone very much, whatever their race or religion.

I could go on for pages in the same vein, but surely the failings of a man's character aren't really grounds for condemning his music? Why single Schumann out for this sort of criticism?

[scottmcc]

Schumann was a contemporary of Liszt (and Chopin, Alkan, Mendelssohn, Verdi and Wagner) but Brahms was born more than two decades later. Please check your history books before making statements such as your last one here!

Best,

Alistair

and furthermore, the young Brahms' early career was very much advanced by Schumann's patronage, and even furthermore, there were rumors of an affair between Brahms and C. Schumann, although no conclusive evidence has been put forth.  But he did dedicate at least a few of his works to her, much to the chagrin of R. Schumann.  Such scandal! 

[dtao12]

When someone on this forum composes a concerto better than Schumann's, then I'll listen more seriously. By "better" I mean adopted and performed and recorded by the world's greatest pianists over more than a century! Obviously I won't be around to hear the verdict...

Plenty of wonderful music and composers to talk about -- why be so negative? Those who don't like composer X (or pianist Y), why not just recommend what you DO like?

[ramseytheii]

I searched all over for this Busoni quote, and glad to say I found it.  I only publish this to show that Schumann hatred has a long history in music, and the current protagonists in this drama have many fathers.

"Schumann gets something of a knocking.  He deserves it... As for that Protestant person, that Saturday-evening stay-at-home, Sunday-afternoon sonata-player, stubbornly tedious sequence-repeater!  On the war-path against the Philistines!  Wasn't the imaginary inauguration of the Davidsbündler an act of Philistinism of the first order?!  The amateur of Zwickau!  His inane infatuation with Clara Wieck places him as great a remove from Liszt as the problems of a rural dean from that of the Pope."

---Ferrucio Busoni



Walter Ramsey

[thalbergmad]

When someone on this forum composes a concerto better than Schumann's, then I'll listen more seriously. By "better" I mean adopted and performed and recorded by the world's greatest pianists over more than a century! Obviously I won't be around to hear the verdict...

Absurd stance to take, that has been used before. One does not have to be able to compose in order to criticise a composer and just because something has been recorded over and over again does not always mean it is any good. It could also mean that people don't know any better.

If you like, I will give you over 50 examples of romantic concerti that have been recorded that I think are superior to Schumanns dross.

Thal

[rienzi]

Absurd stance to take, that has been used before. One does not have to be able to compose in order to criticise a composer and just because something has been recorded over and over again does not always mean it is any good. It could also mean that people don't know any better.

If you like, I will give you over 50 examples of romantic concerti that have been recorded that I think are superior to Schumanns dross.

Thal

It would be more interesting if you explained why you think Schumann's concerto is "dross."

[rienzi]

"His inane infatuation with Clara Wieck places him as great a remove from Liszt as the problems of a rural dean from that of the Pope."

What on earth did Busoni mean by this remark.....that Liszt was "on the go" with far more women than Schumann?!

[ramseytheii]

"His inane infatuation with Clara Wieck places him as great a remove from Liszt as the problems of a rural dean from that of the Pope."

What on earth did Busoni mean by this remark.....that Liszt was "on the go" with far more women than Schumann?!

Hahaha, maybe.  Actually I think Busoni was criticizing the source material for Schumann's composition.  In other words, his inspiration was provincial as opposed to the universal interests of Liszt.

Walter Ramsey

[thalbergmad]

It would be more interesting if you explained why you think Schumann's concerto is "dross."

It almost certainly would not. I leave that to those that have had musical instruction and are able to explain themselves in musical terms.

What i will say is that is it bores me senseless and I lose interest after about 3 bars due to lack of melodic invention. The last movement is worse than Chinese water torture.

I do not have a problem with people that like this turd of a concerto, but i suspect they are the same kind that prattle on about "moonlight" and "Fur Elise" and are totally incapable of experimenting with works that their 90 year old teacher did not tell them about.

Thal

[stevebob]

Lack of musical instruction is no justification for the inability—or refusal—to express oneself in musical terms.  The simultaneous display of contempt for the supposed closed-mindedness of other people smacks of smug complacency and willful ignorance.

Just sayin'.

[thalbergmad]

The simultaneous display of contempt for the supposed closed-mindedness of other people smacks of smug complacency and willful ignorance.

This is true and I must admit that I am smugly complacent that the average Schumann Concerto lover needs to get out more. They are either pre teens that don't know any better or grandads too entrenched in their beliefs and too old or stubborn to consider changing their minds.

I do not need to be willfully ignorant as it comes naturally.

Hope that is musical enough for you.

Thal

[pianisten1989]

or stubborn to consider changing their minds.

Exactly my thought! ... The other way around though...