cromatic scales left hand

[pianisten1989]

I'm currently working on Chopinetude op 25/7. I have it kind of under control, except the chromatic scale. I just can't play it in tempo.

All advices on how to practice is appreciated.

best

[rienzi]

Obviously you must decide how the notes are grouped to coincide with the right hand chords. Practice these up to speed in segments finishing on the first note of the next group, gradually extending the number of segments when each is correct until you finally have the whole scale.
Make sure the arm "follows through" (keeping the elbow closer to your trunk) so that there is no tug-of-war between what the fingers want to do and what your arm is doing.
Surely a little broadening of the tempo is in order here anyway considering the scale leads back to the repetition of the main melody?

[ponken]

I can't come with any advises. I just want to wish you good luck with the piece.

[avetma]

If you talk about chromatic scale in this bar; try using following fingerings.

321 321 4321 321 4321 321 321 4321 321 4321.

[sgearry]

Hi Pianisten1989, how are you? I think there could be two main barriers - either dexterity or rhythmic control. If you feel physically constrained, I would be inclined to advise practising the chromatic scale repeatedly, not just the musical passage. If rhythmic control is a problem here, then it is worth noting Chopin's tendency to write such passages with extra-long beams. Most of the time, it helps to break these beams up into subdivisions of 8, 9, or 10 notes (for example), in accordance to where the main beats fall. Hope this helps!

Stephen Gearry

[pianisten1989]

I've got the rhythmic control, and I know on what tone the chords will come. So that's not really the problem.
It's more pure speed. It's not that I play it slow, but some ppl can play it faster, and I don't want to pick a tempo just because I can't play it faster.

[rienzi]

I've got the rhythmic control, and I know on what tone the chords will come. So that's not really the problem.
It's more pure speed. It's not that I play it slow, but some ppl can play it faster, and I don't want to pick a tempo just because I can't play it faster.

Nobody can tell without observing you play the passage, but I'd make a guess that your problem might well be your arm rather than your fingers. Imagine how you would play a slow glissando in one sweep across the keys with your elbow following-through in the same direction and then try to perform the scale in the same way. I would even advise not worrying too much about the accuracy of the notes until you have assimilated the ease of the action you need propel your hand along the keys. In addition, you will need to make a musical shape out of the scale so the fingers don't need to be equally active throughout it; at the beginning of it you might almost imagine a "floating" feeling. As the passage returns to the theme a crescendo takes place and the fingers become more active, but I think a slight "rit." is in order here so the fingers will have more time to articulate anyway.

[iratior]

Yes, that chromatic scale in the Chopin etude goes fast!  I think that a desirable fingering must be based on an attempt to minimize movement of the thumb, and to think of the chromatic scale as being a sequence of several sets of notes each of which is arranged in chromatic order.  I recommend the fingering (starting at the F-double-sharp below low C) as 3215432154321543213154321432154321.  The third finger provides a strong start at the F-double-sharp, the next three sets of 54321 bring us to that B-sharp so all-important for the harmony;  then we analyze where we want to end up -- B-sharp, C-sharp, D, D-sharp, E -- which we can finger as 5,4,3,2,1.  Before that we have a G-sharp, A, A-sharp, B cluster to be fingered 4,3,2,1, and before that, a D-sharp,E,E-sharp,F-sharp,F-double-sharp cluster to be fingered 5,4,3,2,1, which leaves a C-sharp, C-double-sharp set to be fingered 3,1.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, that chromatic scale in the Chopin etude goes fast!  I think that a desirable fingering must be based on an attempt to minimize movement of the thumb, and to think of the chromatic scale as being a sequence of several sets of notes each of which is arranged in chromatic order.  I recommend the fingering (starting at the F-double-sharp below low C) as 3215432154321543213154321432154321.  The third finger provides a strong start at the F-double-sharp, the next three sets of 54321 bring us to that B-sharp so all-important for the harmony;  then we analyze where we want to end up -- B-sharp, C-sharp, D, D-sharp, E -- which we can finger as 5,4,3,2,1.  Before that we have a G-sharp, A, A-sharp, B cluster to be fingered 4,3,2,1, and before that, a D-sharp,E,E-sharp,F-sharp,F-double-sharp cluster to be fingered 5,4,3,2,1, which leaves a C-sharp, C-double-sharp set to be fingered 3,1.

Can you really do that without audible lumps? I've used Busoni's fingering of two groups of all 5 fingers in both hands (from A flat down to B natural) for ultra-fast chromatic scales in Wild Jagd. While I've sometimes wondered whether this could be carried through for a longer continuous scale, I've never really worked seriously on extending it- as I suspected it would sound too choppy. Have you got any films/recordings of yourself using this fingering? I've never heard of anyone using it, aside for that instance where Busoni suggests it. To be honest, I'm a little skeptical as to whether it's workable- although I suppose this is exactly the kind of writing in which you'd be most likely to get away with slight imprecision in shifts of position.

[iratior]

In deciding what fingering to use for chromatic scales, I find that the number of notes per minute is an important factor in deciding whether to go to the five-finger approach suggested above.  If the number of notes per minute were only, say, 600, a five-finger approach might indeed sound too choppy.   But at 800 or 900 notes per minute, the choppiness goes away.  It feels good to play, too.

[nyiregyhazi]

In deciding what fingering to use for chromatic scales, I find that the number of notes per minute is an important factor in deciding whether to go to the five-finger approach suggested above.  If the number of notes per minute were only, say, 600, a five-finger approach might indeed sound too choppy.   But at 800 or 900 notes per minute, the choppiness goes away.  It feels good to play, too.

Any chance you could upload a film of this? In such cramped position, I think it's very difficult to mask the joins- compared to 5 finger major scales, say. While I can handle the single difficulty of getting between two positions at a very rapid speed, I find high speeds make it even more difficult to attempt a 3rd or a 4th- without big lumps.

[iratior]

My internet connection is quite primitive.  I can't even play videos, let alone make them.  But I assure you that the five-fingering technique for chromatic scales works for me, to the extent anything can.  I do have rather thin and very double-jointed fingers;  I can touch each wrist with the tip of the 5th finger of each hand.  I must also note that I might not stick with the fingering I first  suggested;  I might like 5432154321543215432154321543214321 better.  Conceptualization is an important process of doing the run;  as my fingers move, I think of the first five notes as being in G-major, the next five in C-major, the next five in F-major, and so on until A-flat major brings me to the enharmonic equivalent of G-sharp major, dominant of C-sharp minor.