Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

[sjeon]

 I saw that the most talented Composer is not being talked about to much in Pianostreet.
What's your opinion about him?
What's your favorite mozart piece?

[pianisten1989]

I think we do, though...
And saying that he's The most talented.. ppl will comment about that

Anyhow, I like his music quite a lot. Right now I really enjoy the Adagio in B-minor and the Rondo in A-minor

[liordavid]

I hope this doesn't offend you but personally i think mozart is kind of overated. What about all of those other composers of that era that are underapreciated but wrote amazing works such as Clementi, Weber, Hummel etc.

[prongated]

I hope this doesn't offend you but personally i think mozart is kind of overated. What about all of those other composers of that era that are underapreciated but wrote amazing works such as Clementi, Weber, Hummel etc.

To some extent I agree. I'm presently going through his earlier piano concerti...nos. 11 and 12 are so childish! They're basically scales and arpeggios patched together with trills and turns!

But having said that, I do believe that Mozart's mature keyboard works are easily the finest example of the "high" classical period for that genre, easily beating Clementi, Hummel...that sonata KV533 is personally my favourite keyboard sonata by Mozart (such beautiful simplicity! None of these unnecessary arpeggio and scale nonsense like the early works!), and the A major piano concerto (no. 23) is absolutely one of the most gorgeous work ever written, ever!

[thalbergmad]

For piano solo works, I prefer Clementi, Eberl & Woelfl, but the Mozart piano concerti are out in front IMO.

Thal

[rienzi]

To some extent I agree. I'm presently going through his earlier piano concerti...nos. 11 and 12 are so childish! They're basically scales and arpeggios patched together with trills and turns!

Mozart said of these concertos:

"I still have 2 concertos to write to complete my subscription concerts [Mozart wrote three piano concertos for these subscription concerts: K413-K415]. These concertos are a happy medium between what's too difficult and too easy. They are brilliant, pleasing to the ear, natural without becoming vacuous. There are passages here and there that only connoisseurs can fully appreciate, yet the common listener will find them satisfying as well, although without knowing why."

Don't just "go through" the concertos. Return to them, now and again. Dwell on them a little and you might discover, presently, what the "connoisseurs" found to appreciate in them.

[prongated]

...There are passages here and there that only connoisseurs can fully appreciate...

...and the rest are full of scales and arpeggio garbage. No doubt there are some nice materials in there, but they absolutely pale in comparison with his mature piano concerti, like my personal favourite, no. 23, where even the scales and arpeggios are also pure, beautiful music. There is a good reason why these earlier piano concerti are practically never played.

Don't just "go through" the concertos. Return to them, now and again. Dwell on them a little and you might discover, presently, what the "connoisseurs" found to appreciate in them.

Maybe when I have the time to do so in the future. Right now the competition is in July.

[Resumes hibernation. For real this time ]

[keyboardclass]

Unless you take on board Mozart was as much a violinist you'll not understand his music.  Also his touch - on his piano the keys hardly moved (5mm at most).  It's a weird kind of static, extremely precise experience.    

[rienzi]

...and the rest are full of scales and arpeggio garbage. [Resumes hibernation. For real this time ]

An odd term to use. Scales and arpeggios (being broken chords) are the building blocks of classical music; you need to appreciate what's behind the decoration in order to fully understand and enjoy what Mozart is doing here.
The reason these concertos are not as often played as some of the later ones is nothing to do with poor quality; they are scored for reduced orchestral forces (they can be played with string accompaniment alone) so don't fit easily into the average concert programmes of a full symphony orchestra. The A major Concerto K.414 was the only concerto that Benjamin Britten chose to record with himself as soloist.
As for the other A major concerto, K488, which you mention, it is indeed a marvellous work. Nevertheless, although it is one of the most popular there are many who know their Mozart very well indeed who rate it as one of the slightest of the later concertos and prefer such works as K453, K482 and K491.

[prongated]

[I said I'd go hibernate, but what the heck, I might hang around for a bit on this thread]

Unless you take on board Mozart was as much a violinist you'll not understand his music.  Also his touch - on his piano the keys hardly moved (5mm at most).  It's a weird kind of static, extremely precise experience.    

He was at least as much a violinist as a keyboardist, and I think more as a keyboardist. And I know Mozart's keyboards well enough to know what can and cannot be done with them. Your point?

An odd term to use. Scales and arpeggios (being broken chords) are the building blocks of classical music;

Indeed. And chucking a million of them without very good musical purposes does not constitute the making of a masterwork.

you need to appreciate what's behind the decoration in order to fully understand and enjoy what Mozart is doing here.

I understand them perfectly well, and appreciate them for what they are - garbage.

Perhaps at this stage I should clarify once more...I say all this with his later, mature works in mind. These earlier works are pretty good stuff, but if they are all that Mozart could come up with, there is absolutely no reason why the likes of Clementi, Hummel, and whoever else has been mentioned here should not feature SO MUCH more prominently in the concert stage today. The point is, these earlier works by Mozart really pales in comparison with his mature works, which are absolute masterpieces of the keyboard repertory of all time.

The reason these concertos are not as often played as some of the later ones is nothing to do with poor quality; they are scored for reduced orchestral forces (they can be played with string accompaniment alone) so don't fit easily into the average concert programmes of a full symphony orchestra.

In that instance, there should be a million community orchestras (who obviously don't have a full orchestra) playing these concerti. But no, they pretty much always choose Mozart's later, more mature works. Besides, how hard can it be to shift a few chairs around and remove a few orchestra members in between pieces? Full professional orchestras do it all the time anyway.

So obviously the music is more important than mere stage practicality...and your point thus disproved.

As for the other A major concerto, K488, which you mention, it is indeed a marvellous work. Nevertheless, although it is one of the most popular there are many who know their Mozart very well indeed who rate it as one of the slightest of the later concertos and prefer such works as K453, K482 and K491.

Indeed, those concerti you mention do serve as excellent examples of how great Mozart's music can be - and similarly, pales the earlier concerti in terms of musicianship and craftsmanship. I personally prefer that A major simply for being the very first Mozart concerto I came to know.

[keyboardclass]

He was at least as much a violinist as a keyboardist, and I think more as a keyboardist. And I know Mozart's keyboards well enough to know what can and cannot be done with them. Your point?

But Mozart could well have thought more as a violinist.  Can you?  Also, as you seem to have come to grips with Vienese action, perhaps you're also aware of early classical composers such as Sammartini and JC Bach whose style Mozart emulated?

My point is - do you really understand the early classical sonata?

[pianisten1989]

only because it's crap from a master doesn't make it a masterpiece.

And not all music is like deep, and takes years to understand. Mozart had to write a lot (read: A LOT!!!) of pieces as orders from  richer men. I don't think he put tremendous thoughts in each and every piece...

[keyboardclass]

Mozart?  Crap??  Maybe describes this (so called) informed debate!

[prongated]

Also, as you seem to have come to grips with Vienese action, perhaps you're also aware of early classical composers such as Sammartini and JC Bach whose style Mozart emulated?

My point is - do you really understand the early classical sonata?

I have researched and written on the performance practise of the early classical period (no, not just the sonatas). Yes, I'm aware of the such styles as "sturm und drang" in that period too.

Trust me, you're not going to get far by arguing down this line. And I don't appreciate this ad hominem approach to discrediting my argument - not one bit. Talk about why you think the 4 piano concerti I mentioned are great, and I (and maybe you too) will gladly learn more about the pieces, and thank you in the process. Discredit my musical credentials (what little of it, I suppose) and I will become very unpleasant

Mozart?  Crap??  Maybe describes this (so called) informed debate!

So please, inform us as to why you think otherwise! Are you going to proclaim Mozart's KV1 masterpieces too?

And either learn to read properly, or stop acting dumb. Pianisten refers to Mozart as a "master" there. Only that not all of his works are masterpieces. Which is extremely reasonable and logical.

But Mozart could well have thought more as a violinist.

So what?

Audience member: "Aw, you know, that concerto sounds brilliant and all, but...somehow I think there's just a little too much show going on no?"
Mozart: "Oh that's too bad...but I was thinking more like a violinist when I wrote that..."

Point being, there are many ways in which music can be composed, but most people won't give a f*** how the music came into being. They will only care about the end result. That's why there's always a difference between a work featuring serialism written by a mediocre/average composition student and Jacques Hetu's Piano Variations (a stunning example of how grand serial music can be).

only because it's crap from a master doesn't make it a masterpiece.

Absolutely.

[keyboardclass]

"sturm und drang"??  What's that to do with the price of bananas?  We're talking galant here.  Anyone who uses the words crap and Mozart in the same breath is certainly not informed.

[prongated]

"sturm und drang"??

Of course. It's one of the 2 prevailing styles in early classical music - the other being what you mentioned. Problem? No-one asked me to identify which one Mozart's belong to anyway, but someone is definitely questioning my musical knowledge. And I'm starting to find it offensive

Anyone who uses the words crap and Mozart in the same breath is certainly not informed.

Anyone who thinks Mozart can write no bad music is either a die-hard Mozart fan-boy or the seriously misinformed one, deluded by the common Mozart biographies (or both is possible too, I suppose).


And seriously, get over this one-sentence slurs and start talking about Mozart's music and why you think his early works are masterworks. No more bull**** argument like "oh you think it's crap? you can't do better than Mozart, the greatest of 'em all, so shut up!" Then we can perhaps get a good discussion going.

[keyboardclass]

I don't think anyone's claiming Mozart's works are all masterpieces.  There are none though which are not worth their weight in whatever you wish.  Using sturm and drang to describe any early classical music is just silly scholarship in this day and age.  As Harvard puts it 'Though commonly designated as Sturm and Drang compositions, the early dates and predominantly Austrian origins of these works, as well as what we know of their composers [Haydn, Mozart, Vanhal, Dittersdorf, JC Bach, and others], make it highly unlikely that any direct influence of the literary Sturm and Drang was involved.

[rienzi]

[I said I'd go hibernate, but what the heck, I might hang around for a bit on this thread]

In that instance, there should be a million community orchestras (who obviously don't have a full orchestra) playing these concerti. But no, they pretty much always choose Mozart's later, more mature works. Besides, how hard can it be to shift a few chairs around and remove a few orchestra members in between pieces? Full professional orchestras do it all the time anyway.

So obviously the music is more important than mere stage practicality...and your point thus disproved.

You obviously don't have much experience of community orchestras. I once chose the Beethoven Bflat concerto for a programme with one such and had all-hell to contend with from the clarinets because there was no part for them in it. Players in community orchestras like to be fully involved if they are giving up their spare time to come along to rehearsals! The K413-415 concertos are chamber-orchestra works and they don't sound good played by amateurs because there isn't a mass of sound to cover up any poor playing.

But if anyone is undecided about the provenance of the "garbage" as related to this thread I would suggest they have a look at the score of k413 over on Imslp and observe with their eyes alone-not even attempting to "hear" the work mentally- just how much of the work is made up of mere scales and arpeggios. I think they might agree that, even in those passages where they are able to identify such devices being used, there is usually something of interest and musical import going on elsewhere in the score. The idea that a musical mind like Mozart's would reccomend works full of empty padding to the attention of connoisseurs is ludicrous, to my way of thinking. Even as a child Mozart valued the opinion of "connoisseurs" above that of the general public, and he was no child when he wrote the concertos in question.

[prongated]

I don't think anyone's claiming Mozart's works are all masterpieces.  There are none though which are not worth their weight in whatever you wish.

Right. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree here. My (unfair) case in point: KV1 etc.
And admittedly, when I first wrote in this thread, I just finished spending an hour sight-reading those 4 concerti...I went in expecting works that are close in quality and musicianship to his later concerti, but ended up being disappointed and exhausted (the latter not really due to Mozart, mind you). And today, with all the sentiments gone, I can say they are not garbage, although I still maintain they are definitely not as well-written as those later concerti.

Using sturm and drang to describe any early classical music is just silly scholarship in this day and age.  As Harvard puts it 'Though commonly designated as Sturm and Drang compositions, the early dates and predominantly Austrian origins of these works, as well as what we know of their composers [Haydn, Mozart, Vanhal, Dittersdorf, JC Bach, and others], make it highly unlikely that any direct influence of the literary Sturm and Drang was involved.

Interesting...obviously I never looked at its literary parallel before! I suppose it is misleading in that regard, although I personally find

The K413-415 concertos are chamber-orchestra works and they don't sound good played by amateurs because there isn't a mass of sound to cover up any poor playing.

Oh, and Mozart's KV488 or 467 or whatnot does?? Oh of course...can't play those Mozarts, so let's do Rach 3 or Brahms 1 so we'll sound better!!

Actually, a friend of mine played the KV488 with one such community orchestra who couldn't play the 3rd movt. at her chosen tempo (which is around what most or all pianists take anyway), so they ended up with 2 different tempi in that movt.

You obviously don't have much experience of community orchestras. I once chose the Beethoven Bflat concerto for a programme with one such and had all-hell to contend with from the clarinets because there was no part for them in it. Players in community orchestras like to be fully involved if they are giving up their spare time to come along to rehearsals! The K413-415 concertos are chamber-orchestra works and they don't sound good played by amateurs because there isn't a mass of sound to cover up any poor playing.

I've had my share of working with community orchestras, from orchestral piano parts to Rach 2 and Beethoven 5. No such problem from the clarinetists I suppose, who offered to take me to the pub the week before the Beethoven performance

But even in instances where certain musicians are not required for certain pieces in a program (percussionist easily comes to mind when programming classical/romantic and 20th century works together), surely it's just a matter of organisation! Just tell them clarinetists to come at the 2nd half of the rehearsal instead of listening to the Beethoven and waiting for the piece they are in! Or is one such orchestra obliged to program only works that have harp parts in it, to satisfy the one harpist who (luckily) happens to be around?

[keyboardclass]

And today, with all the sentiments gone, I can say they are not garbage, although I still maintain they are definitely not as well-written as those later concerti.

Does that mean I win?  What's my prize?

[fbt]

     A letter from Mozart to his cousin (excerpt)
             Before I write to you,I must go the closet. Well, that's over. Ah! At last I feel lighter, a weight off my heart; and now I can guzzle again. Oh,oh,when you've emptied yourself,life is far more worth living.......
         ......If I have diarhoea,I run:and if I can't contain myself any longer,I sh*t in my trousers.
         ......Please give a whole arseful of greetings from us both to all our good friends.
                                                                           Ma tres chere cousine,
                                                                           Were you never in Berlin?
                                                                            Your cousin of virtues rare
                                                                            In weather foul or fair
                                                                                    W.A.Mozart,
                                                                            Who shits without a fart. (1777)

This scatological letter sounds very modern,immature and a little like some of the replies on pianosteet.

[prongated]

Does that mean I win?  What's my prize?

Heh. Very funny.

[...prongated subsequently castrated upon remembering no. 11...and vowed to keep his word to hibernate]

[pianisten1989]

Does that mean I win?  What's my prize?

To perform kv 413-415 and kv 1 in Wigmore Hall

[keyboardclass]

Great.  I'll take the orchestra but you can have the hall!

[sjeon]

currently playing the a minor sonata.