big problem with bach

[roseli]

hello everyone!
I have a big problem with Bach, I know he is a genius and for a starter in the piano he's very important for me.
But I don't like his music, I find it to happy and to boring to play, I don't find the motivation to seat at the piano and learn it.
I've heard a lot of his pieces, I've read a short biography, but his music don't "click" inside me... Sometimes we don't like a composer, mine is "only" one of the most important ones of all time! I believe that I must approximate him by studding the motive of all is fame.
I'm here to know what you think, what you recommend me to read... everything that you find useful!
thank you

[i_am_joey_jo]

If you are just a beginner it is unlikely you are playing any Bach at all.

Anna Magdelena's Notebook pieces are mostly not written by him but by Petzgold (Minuet in GMajor, Minor, etc) and so if you are judging by these pieces then you are not really referring to Bach.

Basically Bach is to Music what Jesus is to Christians.  He wrote what we call the "Bible" of music, the Well Tempered-Clavier.  He has been studied and played from his time on and much, or all of the music since Bach has been influenced by his music.

Go download a torrent of his Harpsichord Concertos or the Well Tempered Clavier to see what I mean and listen carefully.  Many of his pieces have multiple voices and are extremely elegant.

There is a reason we study Bach, if you can understand and play his pieces then you can understand just about anything.  His music is complex it is true but so rewarding!  Most of his works start at a level 6 though there are some at levels 4 and 5.  Try Bouree in E Minor, that one is quite excellent for beginners and has a 'rhyming' quality about it.  Guitarists play it all the time.

[csharp_minor]

What is it specifically that you dislike about Bach? A certain collection of his works?
I know what you mean. I was really was put off of his 2 Part Inventions after hearing mechanical renditions of them on TV and you tube, and on keyboard demos...But I have just proved myself wrong! Just now! I sat down, found some good recordings and forced myself to listen to them and wrote down the ones I liked.

Sometimes it just takes a bit of effort on your part to do a quick research, find a good recording and find some good pieces. I try not to criticise composers or pigeon hole them, as I believe there is always some good pieces they have wrote its just finding them!

If you are a beginner and want a good beginner friendly book, try the Schirmer Performance Edition of J.S Bach first lessons in Bach, it has a cd too. It has the well-known pieces by Petzold, but has quite a lot of pieces by J.S Bach, inculding the Bouree in E minor; I say that piece is grade 3ish the rest of the pieces ranges from grade 2 -5, imo.

[mistermoe]

I could give you hours of music by bach to listen to, but i think that wouldn't really change your mind. Just forget about bach for the moment. Study music instead! Everything else but bach.
There are reasons many of us (me included) think of him as the greatest composer of all time. Subjective and objective reasons. But it takes immense knowledge and experience (not just musically) understanding even the slightest part of his genius. We all have so much to learn...
Just don't worry and don't force yourself liking him. One day you will change your mind.
Everything of value in life takes time!

[bachfanatic]

roseli said :

But I don't like his music, I find it to happy and to boring to play,

Bach ? Too happy ? Then, what do you think of Mozart ?

Just joking !!

If you think Bach is too happy, listen to this :

Prelude and fugue in E minor, BWV 855 :

Prelude and fugue in Eb minor, BWV 853 :

&feature=related

Prelude and fugue in G minor, BWV 861 :

&feature=related


If can't hear the beauty that lies in those pieces, do as mistermoe said. Forget about Bach for the moment, you'll get back to him later.

[pavb2]

I'm starting to play Bach inventions & C major prelude (discussed on other thread) my experience was that the more I looked & listened to the pieces the more they grew on me. There was definitely more depth and layers the more I listened

[scottmcc]

bach too happy?  try the C#minor prelude and fugue from WTC1: 

there is a certain beauty in the mathematical precision of bach's compositions, but I find I have to be in the right mood to enjoy bach, and quite frankly, while I of course realize bach's great influence, I much prefer listening to works of the romantic composers over those of bach.  but that's just a matter of taste.

I agree with what others have suggested...learn more about music before trying out bach again.  Helene Grimaud didn't record any Bach until just last year, and she's certainly no slouch!

[quantum]

Bach happy?  His music ranges a wealth of emotion.

Perhaps instead of starting with his reputation, start with his music.  Find something important to yourself in listening.  Later on you can appreciate the finer points.  You say you are a starter in piano?  It would be like trying to appreciate power steering and anti-lock breaks while still learning how to drive a car.


Listen how he draws you into this tragic story:
St. John Passion #1

(This one is subtitled)

Bach was known as an organ virtuoso during his life.  Maybe you may enjoy his organ music:
Prelude and Fugue BWV 546

Contrapunctus IX

Chorale 'Nun, komm', der Heiden Heiland' BWV 659
Otherworldly!

Wedge Fugue BWV 548:
Tipsy!

Matthäus Passion - Erbarme dich

"Sinfonia" from "Cantata No. 29"
Beyond happy

[biscuitroxy12]

Not all of his music is like that. Take the A minor Invention. It is intermediate yet a little bit challenging for a person with a smaller hand. I do agree that a lot of his songs are repetitive, quite repetitive. Like the prelude in C major which shifts around in keys and has arpeggios for the whole song. I forget what it's called because I've heard it called everything from Ave Maria to Prelude to an Etude, etc. However, repetitive does not mean boring. I'm playing the Beethoven Sonata No 22 in B flat major and it has a few lines in the left hand that are the same while the right hand is playing quarter notes. It's the easiest part of the song, but anyways, if you crescendo in those notes, it isn't so boring anymore. It matters the way you articulate the song. If you didn't use different dynamics in the song then you could even make the Beethoven Moonlight Sonata 3rd movement or a Ravel Piano concerto seem dull.
I hope this helped. I spent a lot of time thinking about what my opinion was.
biscuitroxy12

[johnjamessmith0]

Sometimes appreciation can only come after learning.  The majority of people who appreciate classical music in the first place seem to be the very people who have played a classical instrument for years.

[rmbarbosa]

When one does understand the structure of Bach compositions, the richtness of his developments, then one feels that Bach is a genius. And, sometimes, comparing with some others compositors, we feel that this ones are quasi frivolling...

[keyboardclass]

Romantic music is easier to listen to and play - no need to use your brain.  Bach takes a lot of mental energy to extract the joy.

[pianowolfi]

Romantic music is easier to listen to and play - no need to use your brain. 

Ouch!

[mistermoe]

no need to use your brain

That applies to everything, however that's no reason not to use it  Just try...

[wildman]

Seems I have the same problem...well, not exactly what I'd call "happy", but I prefer some "transparent music" such as Beethoven or Chopin...

Baroque, generally, sounds, well not exactly "boring" but kind of....relaxing itself, which would be the major motivation to me...otherwise, as stated above I'd rather play romantic/emotional music as it describes my life (much work to do, play an "angry" music...etc.)

[keyboardclass]

Ah yes, get turned down for a job - play some sad Mendelssohn.  I remember those days.  Sheesh, glad they're over. 

[biscuitroxy12]

Romantic music is easier to listen to and play - no need to use your brain.  Bach takes a lot of mental energy to extract the joy.

Romantic music still needs you to use your brain. I believe it makes you use your brain even more.

[keyboardclass]

Must be the way you play 'em.

[roseli]

ah ah for the no need for the brain...
anyway, thank you very much for your kind replys.
I must tell you that I quitted those peaces I was learning for one of Heller, I know about everything I'm losing for doing that, I did had a big conversation with my teacher about this, since I prefer not to play any Bach, Mozart or Beethoven... the music of my level have the same effect that the contemporary music have on me... it makes me very anxious and nervous.
I will left them to another time, when I have learned more about music and know how to play better. I don't see why I must be killing my motivation with something I don't like when there is so much more composers to find out. : \

[keyboardclass]

Good on you!  Heller wrote for the piano-as-we-know-it and wrote well at that (a bit Schumanny though)  Also give Kabalevsky a look in - teachers love him.

[roseli]

Good on you!  Heller wrote for the piano-as-we-know-it and wrote well at that (a bit Schumanny though)  Also give Kabalevsky a look in - teachers love him.

oh... I'm just hearing this:

and I find it lovely : ) thank you for the suggestion! I had never heard about him.

[keyboardclass]

Yes, he wrote beautifully - kind of student's Prokofiev.  The pianist in the video has loads of unnecessary tension by the way.

[appoggiatura]

Bach is my favorite composer.  But I only discovered him in adulthood.  Looking back, I remember that I was first won over by his violin music rather than his keyboard music.  I especially prize the CD's I have of the young Yehudi Menuhin performing Bach's violin concertos and sonatas and partitas for solo violin.  Before I heard Menuhin's intensely emotional performances of these pieces, I had (incorrectly) thought of Bach as a kind of intellectual mathematician.  Menuhin helped me realize that, as Pablo Casals put it, "Bach is a volcano."  I was also strongly persuaded by a recording of "Ebarme Dich" from the St. Matthew Passion.  For the keyboard music, Glenn Gould's brilliant, passionate recording of the first keyboard concerto with Leonard Bernstein was an epiphany (watch an excerpt here:

).  There's tons more Bach to recommend, but these just happened to be the recordings that lit the Bach fire for me.

Yehudi Menuhin/Bach: Bach: Violin Concertos
https://tinyurl.com/2dgnott

Yehudi Menuhin/Bach: Sonatas & Partitas for Solo Violin
https://tinyurl.com/268pblv

Gould/Bernstein/Bach: Piano Concertos
https://tinyurl.com/2awatab

Klemperer: Bach: St. Matthew Passion
https://tinyurl.com/2wd4696 (though period instrument purists may cringe, I consider this classic performance a masterpiece)

[brogers70]

hello everyone!
I have a big problem with Bach, I know he is a genius and for a starter in the piano he's very important for me.
But I don't like his music, I find it to happy and to boring to play, I don't find the motivation to seat at the piano and learn it.
I've heard a lot of his pieces, I've read a short biography, but his music don't "click" inside me... Sometimes we don't like a composer, mine is "only" one of the most important ones of all time! I believe that I must approximate him by studding the motive of all is fame.
I'm here to know what you think, what you recommend me to read... everything that you find useful!
thank you

Roseli, Leonard Bernstein had the same problem with Bach that you describe. He gave a great lecture on the Music of Bach in his Omnibus series (I looked on-line and it is available for purchase, but I could not find a free version). He started out completely cold to all the running sixteenth notes. He described how he tried to put some Romantic "life" into all those runs and how he failed to get past his boredom, until he managed to find the drama of Bach on its own terms. He explained all the dramatic word painting in the St. Matthew Passion, and described his conversion to a fan of JSB. I'm sorry I'm not more specific; I read the transcript of the lecture 30 years ago. It's a great bit of Bach evangelizing and if you can find a copy it might help you to see what's so great about him.

I love the Nickolas Harnoncourt version of the St. Matthew Passion. Take three hours, listen to that with the text in hand and you'll be cured of the idea that Bach is sort of mindlessly cheerful. Don't let anyone convince you that Baroque music is not passionate. Part of the reaction against Baroque music in the Classical period was because it was too complex and intellectual, but part of the reaction because it was too openly emotional. There's passion and melancholy in Mozart, too, but it's much more self-controlled.

Boa sorte!

[scottmcc]

much as I love the st matthew passion, it's a relatively opaque work!  the concerto listed above is brilliant though, and I would argue that anyone who can't get into that would have a hard time getting into classical music in general.  helene grimaud also recently recorded it, and I quite like her rendition: 

https://www.amazon.com/H%C3%A9l%C3%A8ne-Grimaud-Plays-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B001NESPH2

hear her interview on NPR about bach:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99962099

[roseli]

I don't have a problem with baroque music, the baroque is my favourite period of history, and I understand the cultural elations between the culture, politic, religion and music.
what I don't like is the music of most of the composers, I find it to loud, with a great enphasis in the higher notes and does are tones that I do no appreciate much.
and it annoys me to play the most know musics like moonlight sonata. I've heard it so many times that I got tired and the last thing I want is to pass hours of life playing it.
my favourite peace of this period and composer:

[fenz]

I like baroque music because I can explore tone color, dynamics, breathing, and phrasing 

[lienetje]

Hi,

In the beginning, I found Bach also very boring!!!!!!!!!! But....now I can't stop with playing it!!
You have just have to play it again and again, it isn't easy, but as you playing it often, you can't stop, in my case anyway
It's also very interesting to analyze Bachs music, my teacher helped me to accept Bach's music.

Good luck!
Liene

[rmbarbosa]

Liliana,
Ainda não gosta de Bach? Vá ao site de uma amiga minha, Chiara Massini, e veja-a a tocar, em cravo, a ária inicial das Variações de Goldberg. Veja a expressão do rosto dela e sinta o que ela sentiu ao tocar aquilo...
Sabe? Para se gostar de Bach, é preciso saber alguma teoria musical. Por exemplo, na Invenção nr 1 a duas vozes, logo no início, há uns compassos em que Bach apresenta uma inversão do tema (o tema é tocado da frente para trás) mas, ao mesmo tempo, a Liliana pode ouvir, nos mesmos compassos, não a inversão mas o tema "em espelho" (em vez de baixo-cima-baixo-cima, ouve cima-baixo-cima-baixo). É muito difícil compor com esta espécie de ambiguidade (julgo que Bach só o fez em outras duas ou três composições). E cada um de nós, ao ouvir aquilo, pode como que escolher o que quer e como quer ouvir. É genial, dá muito gozo tocar - podemos realçar o tema ou a sua inversão ou a sua imagem em espelho. ou podemos optar por não realçar nada e deixar que as pessoas ouçam o que quizerem... Quando a Liliana descobrir isto, vai gostar muito mesmo... A propósito, já decidiu se vai para o Conservatório ou opta por outra coisa? O melhor para si.
Rui

[roseli]

olá Rui : )
Voltei a atacar o Minuet em Sol, porque... porque tem mesmo de ser. e aquilo é a coisa mais chata que existe à face da terra, é horrível, é sempre um sacrifício praticar aquilo. Prefiro mil vezes passar o tempo a tocar czerny do que aquela peça.
Sempre entrei para o conservatorio, mas como era muito caro desisti, telefonaram-me hoje a perguntar se me ia inscrever ou não. Vou para outro sitio mais barato e vou a lisboa um dia destes buscar a papelada para me orientar para o exame de 5º como externa.

[rmbarbosa]

Olá Liliana, o minueto em Sol é o do livro de Madalena Bach? Se é, não é música de Bach. Obrigado por ir dando notícias, estou a seguir com muita atenção o que vai dizendo sobre o seu estudo de piano, porque realmente é difícil encontrar professores à altura. Julgo que para a Liliana seria muito útil ler o livro do Dr. Chang. Pessoalmente, andei anos a "fazer" o Hanon todos os dias, conseguia tocá-lo à velocidade de 200 mas, quando tentava uma peça a sério, só saía martelada. Quando li o livro de C. Chang, foi como que uma alvorada que se fez em mim. Um dia, escrevi-lhe um mail a agradecer-lhe e anexei uma peça de Chopin. Respondeu-me que ele próprio a tocava, já a tinha ouvido por muitos pianistas mas que, desde as primeiras notas tocadas por mim, tinha ficado fascinado. E acabava com isto: that is MUSIC!!!!!!! (pôs uma data de pontos de exclamação). Se não fosse ele, eu continuaria a tocar o Hanon todos os dias e a não conseguir tocar MÚSICA. Talvez a Liliana nem precise de professora. Com as dicas aqui do Forum, com a leitura de livros que se podem descarregar na Net, com o seu amor pelo piano, a Liliana vai conseguir maravilhas. No que eu puder ajudar, conte sempre comigo. Fico a desejar o melhor para si.
Rui

[roseli]

Já li o livro do dr. Chang, mas o dr. Chang não ensina a usar o pedal por exemplo lol Vo aprendendo o Hanon pela flexibilidade que ele me dá, mas livros de método... adoro o Czerny.
Sei que o livro da Madalena não foi escrito por Bach, mas tenho ali umas peças dele tocadas pelo Gould e continua a não me atrair.
Quando as minhas férias começaram andava muito entusiasmada a tocar piano todos os dias, infelizmente veio aquela vaga de calor e a minha rotina derreteu... mas tenho de voltar ao ataque que já ando a sentir-me mal.
Para mim ter um professor é essencial, evita que eu fique sem praticar durante muito tempo.
Obrigada por todas as dicas Rui, um dia destes temos de mudar as nossas conversas para o MSN/e-mail : )

[rmbarbosa]

Liliana, para a técnica dos pedais, pode descarregar grátis, "possibilities of tone color by artistic use of pedals" by Teresa Carreno; são só 32 páginas e é muito bom. Um pouco mais complexo mas tambem muito bom é "Guide to the proper use of the pianoforte pedals" by Alexander Nikitich Bukhovtsev.É uma obra de 44 páginas toda com a técina de pedais de Anton Rubinstein. Também disponível gratuitamente na Net.
Vou enviar-lhe uma mensagem só para si com o meu e-mail, ok?
Tudo de bom para si
Rui

[thoven_liszt]

If I may, I would like to suggest that you listen to David Fray's recordings of Bach. If you search his name on youtube, you should be able to find a video of his rehearsal of the Bach Keyboard Concertos. I find his interpretation and tone production quite refreshing and innovative compared to the 'traditional harpsichord' sound of other pianists.

The best wishes,
A piano student

[julianaloveing]

I sometimes find playing Bach boring, too! So when I have the power to choose, I will avoid those which sounds boring. When you play melodies you like, there will be a motivation to improve and to learn more. I like to play those fast and light pieces of Bach, which I will imagine I am playing it to a child to make it smile, or playing to a royalty to impress him/her( most of Bach's work makes me feel like royal musics which you play in the palace )Make it like a role playing then maybe you will find it fun! Hope that helps!!!

Cheers!

[sausagefingers]

To the OP I can understand how you feel. I too am new to Bach (I'm new to classical music in general). I started learning the "notebook" and the first invention a few months back and I had no enthusiasm for it whatsoever, it can feel really perplexing when wherever you go people are telling you Bach "is like oxygen" when you just dont feel it.

However I kept on listening and I'm so glad I did because after listening to The Goldberg Variations and The art of Fugue the winding, elusive melodies really started permeate and the depth and richness of Bach is starting to amaze me, I feel like Im at the start of a long and rewarding journey (cliche alert!)  

The trick is to persevere without forcing it, like learning to swim , its kinda awkward at first and you keep getting water up your nose but after a while you'll wonder how you ever got on without it.

For what there worth Here are my recommendations for a Bach newcomer, I'm aware to most people there obvious..

Prelude in C BWV 846

Cantata No. 147, 'Herz Und Mund Und Tat Und Leben' BWV147: Choral: Jesu Bleibet Meine Freude (Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring)   
 
Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland, BWV 659 - Transcribed for Piano Ferruccio Busoni   
   
Aria from the Goldberg variations  

Cello Suite BWV 1007: prelude

[sunshine_keys]

I have the same problem.. I do not like playing classical music at all! Like one of the above posters said I probably wasn't even playing Bach. But I still hated it!

[jaggens]

Hi Roseli,

You can not change the music of Bach. It is written and it will stay exaclty as it is.
But what you are looking for is a change in yourself. You can only find a different approach that will change your relationship with the music of Bach. So try to find new aspects on how to look his music and find new details that could open up his world.

I had the same thing. But now a love Bach and his music. For me the biggest problem was memorizing his music. It took a long time and a huge effort and grew so boring. Now when I use a new method of memorizing (By Walter Gieseking), Bach is incredible and takes me just to the inside of my own self and imagination.

If you keep searching you will find it. But try new things and details until you find "that thing" in Bach and yourself.

Just generally liking or not liking his music is quite superficial. It is often subconsously connected to just some intellectual details. For example if you suddenly discover how fantastically he is able to combine voices and you see it clearly, you could start liking and loving his music in one click.

Hope I gave you some insight. I do not know exactly what could give you the push, but I wish you luck and new discoveries.

Jaak

[danhuyle]

I'd be so grateful if I could play the 4 page pieces from WTC, i.e. 2 page prelude and 2 page fugue and all the 2 part inventions.

The clearer you are with your "why" the more motivated you will be to play Bach. How about spend the time finding the "why"? 

[hermanberntzen]

I really like playing Bach , you can play he's music in soo many ways. And after hearing Glenn Gould play some of the works , specially the Aria i got inspired to play the Aria too and i really liked making up my own speed etc.
But in Bach's work it's probaly harder to find the music pieces you like , it's quite good hidden out there.

Lovely!