How to play broken octaves

[ggpianogg]

I'm not sure how to call this type of octaves, it's when you have to play them in an 'alternating' manner with the same hand, like in the end of Mozart's Turkish March for example (take a look at the picture below in the treble). (Edit: I know now they are called BROKEN octaves, thanks guys).

I'm wondering as to how this type of octaves should be played (or how it is played by most of you). Do you rather keep the wrist more or less motionless, and press the keys using finger movenets almost exclusively (so basically the hand is moving only horizontally above the keys and the key depression is done only by muscles of the the 1st and 5th/4th fingers)? Or do you depress the keys using a rotating (around the axis) movement of the wrist - meaning a rapid clockwise/counter-clockwise movement of the wrist - so that the fingers (1st and 5th/4th) are almost motionless, only slightly bent, and the rest of the motion and the depression of the keys is done by the rotation of the wrist, so that the finegers are sort of "pushed" into the keys by the rotation of the wrist?

Hope I explained this correctly, if not let me know. Of course if there is a third/fourth/more different options, please share

Oh and do you move the elbow away from the body (sideways) when you do this?

[scottmcc]

those are called "broken" octaves, and are found throughout the literature, such as in several of the beethoven sonatas (tempest, pathetique both spring to mind as obvious examples).

the actual motion called for depends on the velocity and the jump between them.  I tend to play them with combination of rocking and finger motion.  finger motion is easier for me to keep even, whereas rocking is easier to apply accents if indicated.  I try not to focus on my elbow--I let it go where the hands take it.  I'm a big believer in the "as little tension as required" school of thought--only use the minimum muscular effort to make the move required, no extra rigidity.

any of the major technical exercise texts will have a section devoted to this.  it's exercise 56 in Hanon.

[quantum]

It's mostly rocking motion.  As Scott describes, finger motion gives more control, but is probably better for slower passages.  

Think of "shaking" the wrist when doing the rocking motion.


You may wish to change the title of your thread as alternating octaves refers to something different - see attached an example.

[keyboardclass]

It depends on the composer. Often I go down (drop and flop) on the first note and up (flick) on the second.  If it's fast I' use rotation.  If it's Mozart I'd do minimum movement.

[tunneller]

I'm at exactly this point on the same Mozart piece (which may be the last point since I dont really like the way he ended the Rondo).

My problem is that I tend to "slur" on the 1-5 stretch with an emphasized staccato on the 5, and repeat. Not good.

Following this thread, I am trying now to throw in some finger pressure movement on the 5, along with the "shake" from side-to-side <that I'd been doing previously>. I think it is helping.
 
I listended to one rendition and it almost sounded like two different people playing the "1" notes vs the "5", both almost legato and neither louder/quieter than the other. That's my goal.

Any other advice gratefully appreciated.

T.

[perfect_pitch]

https://img697.imageshack.us/img697/7295/octavesmozart.png

Mmmm... Liszts Transcendental Etude No. 5... Gotta love alternating octaves.   

[pollydendy]

try varying your rythm to long -short and short-long, and try playing  staccato and legato as well.  You have to be able to play them as solid, non-broken too before broken is good.  the other thing is:  It may be tempting to use the energy generated by playing the piece loudly, but that can be fatiguing especially if your  hand is smal or you are new to playing them and still developing skill.  so soften your sound and your hand when practicing to avoid fatigue.    If you have a good edition of the music, they often suggest using more than your 5 to play, alternating  between your 4 and 5 and sometimes aven 3 can help.  In addition to lateral(rotation or flopping), you have to incorporate going into and out of the keys,toward or away from you.   You wouldn't place your hand in the same area for a C as you would a C#. use a walking motion to go up and down, and grab the key a little with your fingertip.  watch for signs of fatigue in your wrist.