learning Jazz piano from classcial background

[dora96]

Hi all,

I recently meet a Jazz pianist. He plays really well and very creative with his improvisation. I ask him that can he teach me, so I have 1 hour lesson from him each week. I have been learning from for 8 weeks.  However, I find it is so difficult, the method that he teaches,  learning different chords on lead sheet. He plays the piece for me and I should be able to follow. The more I try the worst I get. I can't get any rhythm right due to lack of imformation on the music and I don't really think about the structure of the chords and harmonisation when I study piece of classical. The traditional way to classical music, everything is written down on the sheet music, all I have to do learn the note and practice it until smooth and play in time and get dynamic of the piece.

I am so frustrated because I can't free myself from the keyboard. I can simply play the melodies with chords progression. My teacher plays it with beautiful chords progression and singing the melodies over the arrangement. I can't do that because I am not a singer and I get distracted by singing and playing the piano at the same. My teacher is young and very talented and he doesn't have lots of experience teaching student with classical background. I find the blue scales improvisation is hard and funk  and rock rhythm even harder than I can imagine. The stumble block for me what sound good, and accept what is good sound, but without the foundation what is good about it and how to make good and confidently good interesting on the improvisation which I don't have the picture  at the moment. It seems all very blurry to me.  He doesn't write lots of things for me, there is no sheet music to learn from. So far I burn me a CD and I try to listen and find the rhythm by myself.

What should I do ? It seems that he doesn't understand the obstacle I am facing. He does it so easy and make even hard to imitate or listen to his play. Can you guys give me some advice what should I can communicate better between us. I think it is hard for him to write down the notation what he play, but without any visual aid I don't think I can learn very much.   Please help me !! Thank you

[landru]

One problem is that the teacher is just going way way way too fast for what you can take in. Learning and playing jazz as you know is different than classical. In jazz, the player is in some ways the composer as well - you have to think like a composer as well as a performer.

Gifted jazz (or very experienced) performers consider all the different variety of scales as their basic foundation - to a classical player it is like their notes on a page. We (classical players) can't really exist without the black dots - and they can't exist without knowing what each scale is and how it relates harmonically to the piece they are playing. It isn't so much the notes on the page that they are playing (though you certainly can put them on a page if you need to), but the consonances and dissonances that their improvisation with the scales are making.

Underneath the improv, is the harmonic foundation of the piece - the chords you see in the lead sheet. These chords "dictate" or lead you to the form of the scale you are playing - the key, whether it is major, minor, diminished, augmented etc.

And finally, underneath it all is the rhythm of the piece. This dictates the "swing" of the piece and it is very fundamental. When playing with other players, say a bass or drum, they can handle the beat and basic harmony and other players like the horns, piano, guitar etc. can use their talents to play off the rhythms they hear.

So how does this help you? Ask the teacher to concentrate on only one of these things at once. For instance, with working with rhythms, ask him to play along with you the basic chords (i.e. forget all the 7ths, sus, aug, dim etc) at a certain rhythm, say a latin or a swing rhythm. No improvs, no scales, no other funny business but just playing chords with the rhythm. You will be very surprised how after a few minutes of this, your hands automatically want to fill in between the beats with their own little figures - this can be used to start some improvs!

Alternatively, say you want to work on harmony. Then only work on what the lead sheet chords mean. Usually you can see a pattern between the chord changes - a melodic downward path or the standard ii-V-IV chord patterns. Don't be awed by all the symbols like dim, aug, sus4 etc. Essentially the modifications on the chords just mean that the scale is modified by adding or modifying one of the scale notes. Then once you understand what these chords are - play them at whole note (or one chord per measure) with either hand. Once that is mastered you can then ask the teacher for basic "comp" patterns. These can be the bass note in the left hand on the first beat, and the right hand coming in on 3 with the rest of the chord - and then working from there.

Finally, say you want to work on the melodic improv part. Usually, this is in the form of a melody from the piece. Rather than try to fit all the left hand harmonies and rhythms all at once - you might want the teacher to work with you on the scales that the melody is part of and just play the scales as you go through the piece. That is essentially what some jazz is - just playing some parts of the scales in interesting points of the rhythm and the harmony!

Phew - I didn't mean to write so much, hope this helps! But the main thing is, try to work with only one thing at once when you are starting - just like in classical you might start a piece with one hand at a time at a slow speed.

[dora96]

Thank you landru, You have given a very positive feedback. I hope that I can learn something fun. I still love my classical piece. I practice everyday that make it hard for me to concentrate on improvisation. Because in the classical like Chopin and Beethoven , there is nothing to improvising, simply we are playing what is written in the score. I learn it and practice to the point memorizing the whole piece Which claims that I own that music

The frustration of contemporary music is so easy, but play it good and fantastic is hard because I don't really have the creativities yet. You have mentioned that Jazz pianist uses and depends on their scales. It is same as what we learn in the classical major and minor , melodies scales  in all 12 keys. I know them well, I have to know them in every piano grade exam, but honestly if you ask me to play the music in key c to change to key Db, I will  freak out.  The brain need to think and change what I am playing instantly.

On the other hand. I can play the chords with the drum rhythm. it seems quite straight forwards and sound nice, but if there is no other instrument to play along with, I find that hard to accompany me especially I don't sing. If I try to make rhythmic pattern on the music , I can't hear the melodies line on the music. For example song over the rainbow. I can play the chord, but it seems very boring and lifeless with someone singing along the melodies. What should I practice to accomplish it ? At the moment, I feel I am lack the desire.  I also have a horrible feeling classical pianists don't really mix with other style. I don't know whether it is true or not.

[keyofc]

Dora,

I'd only work on pieces that I know right now - (I mean know the sound so rhtym is not another challenge)
Learning jazz takes a lot of concentration -


Think in numbers.  When you play the G chord - think 1 3 5
Try this
Play the D Major 7th in both hands
D F# A C#
Now leave the fifth out of the right hand.
Now leave the third out of the left hand.
Play all major 7th chords like this - and you will start getting the idea why the numbers
are so important.  (Please let me know if you try it)

[dora96]

Hi keyofc

I think I have tried that method you suggest. It is very nice and good practice with all 12 keys. At the moment, it seems very straight forward to play chords only. What you suggest it is called "comping" ? Is that right ? Instead of playing all stack of chords on top each hands, heavy and muddy.  To find the C7 play G and Bb on right hand and play Both C octave on left hand.

My struggle at the moment, how to play the each chords into sensible rhythmic texture over the song. If I don't play direct from the melody, but I need to make some sort of accompaniment for the song. How to make sense of it. If I don't have someone give me a voice. I know when I try to learn the guitar, my teacher plays over the record. But I find that hard to do it exactly in piano. Since sometimes the recording is singing in freestyle. It is so hard to follow and keeping in perfect timing. I know it is very simple most accompaniments are more less the same. Either play chords over the melodies, or broken chords, arpeggio, or mix and match. It is the rhythm and playing in time that stumble me because I have to constantly think about what notes or chord inversion I need to use. I hope I sort out this musical puzzle soon . Thank you everyone contribute this thread


   

[keyofc]

Hey Dora,
I see what you mean.

Well - one thing that has happened for me since I write my own songs - is I started playing them and then it just kind of happened - the rhythm.

If you can play a really slow ballad that you like - and get used to it -
maybe you can try after you feel comfortable with trying to sing-
is notice if you do anything differently instinctely just because your'e singing.

I hope this is not frustrating post - since you said that is your challenge.
But it was also my challenge until I started with my own song.
Good luck - there must be someone out there that can help you out better