Problems with a student and scales...

[perfect_pitch]

Okay - in a nutshell (so I don't go too lengthy)...

I have a student who's studying Grade 1 AMEB exams. One of the scales in technical work is C Major (2 octaves) in similar motion. She did the Preliminary where she had to do C Major (1 octave) in similar motion without a problem. However, when she does 2 octaves, she can NEVER get the right fingering in the second octave right hand - she does this:

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 1 2 3 4  1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

She always puts 4 on the second octave 'F' always.

I got her to play it hands separately... No problem.
I got her to play it hands separately without looking at the keys... No problem
I got her to play it hands separately without looking at the keys, while saying her 9 times tables (sort of like multi-tasking since she'll have to think about 2 different fingerings when she puts it hands together)... No problem
I got her to play the notes and to pause just before she's to put her thumb on the next key, hands separately... No problem
I got her to play the C Major (2 octaves) in contrary motion hands together... No problem

The SECOND I get her to put it hands together for similar motion... she always puts 4 on the second octave 'F'... but not the first octave 'F'.

I really need help here... the poor student always feels annoyed at not being able to get it right - and I feel like I'm running out of ideas to help her. I really need to try and fix this as it also affects her G & D Major scales as well - the same problem happens.

I would really appreciate any help or ideas.

[honeywill]

How are the scales marked in the exam? Is it essential to have the "correct" fingering? In the Associated Board exam 'any successful fingering' is accepted ie if your student manages to play the scale with nice even tone and rhythm, and musical shaping, it doesn't matter if the fingering is a little unconventional. That may not be the case for your exam system.

It may be that this is a battle left to a future occasion, if she can pass the exam in spite of some dodgy fingering. Co-ordination can take quite a while to fall in place. There are various alternative systems of fingering for scales available - eg Penelope Roskell's scheme - generally recommended for more advanced students who have already mastered the standard fingering, but perhaps worth considering in a case such as this.

Another thought, perhaps best suited to after this exam, to avoid further confusion - how about teaching her some of the 'black note' scales - this may help her to get used to using differnent fingers simultaneously - I quite like the 'all blacks' = Db, B and F sharp majors for this. Get her to think about patterns of fingering related to the black notes - 234 for groups of 3, 23 for groups of 2.

[perfect_pitch]

How are the scales marked in the exam? Is it essential to have the "correct" fingering?

For the AMEB... I'm pretty sure it is, but I don't want to take that chance - I mean she's about 10 years old, and does enjoy music. Don't want to get her scales off to a shaky start by trying to use alternative fingering...

Another thought,  - how about teaching her some of the 'black note' scales - this may help her to get used to using differnent fingers simultaneously

Again - for a 10 year old who can barely play C Major scale together, I'm not sure it's a good idea - HOWEVER, you inspired another idea. I'll try and get her to play the B major scale since it uses the thumb on the white notes only. This might help her get used to the fingering.

Of course I don't have a lesson with her until Thursday, so I'll need to wait till then to see if it works.

[quantum]

Get her to think about patterns of fingering related to the black notes - 234 for groups of 3, 23 for groups of 2.

Continuing with this idea, get her to play clusters.  Thumbs always by themselves, 234 as clusters, top note 4 or 5 by itself.  

Eg for RH, 2 octaves: 1, 23, 1, 234, 1, 23, 1, 234, 5, 234, 1, 23, 1, 234, 1, 23, 1.


Another thing you can do is micro isolate the problem to only a few notes, then repeat forward and backward.  

Code: [Select]

   E F G
RH: 3 1 2
LH: 3 2 1
Play this hands together E F G F E F G F G ...

[lostinidlewonder]

This student MUST use the traditional fingering as it is a basis for fingering of many scales.

Try to get her to start the scale with both hands thumbs on the C's and get her to practice the scale ascending from there. My guess is that because in the LH when you play the D you have to cross over with the 4th this is encouraging her to play to her 4th in the RH. Target this possibility by starting thumbs on C's ask her to notice how LH 4 crosses to D, ask her to notice that the 4th in the RH does not play at all, simply get her to play to the F and RH with thumb. If she cannot do this from the thumbs position then get her to play to the E (when she is pausing on the E ask her can she notice that in BH the 3rd fingers are playing) then pause as long as she liked without moving her hands one bit, then when she knows what to do play the next note only. Continue this process then put in context from the starting position of the scale (LH5 RH1) get her to notice when she reached the BH 1 on C.

[timothy42b]

This student MUST use the traditional fingering as it is a basis for fingering of many scales.

No.

That's just silly.

There is no rule of fingering that is violated by playing C major 1234123.  It is absolutely just as good. 

But still she should get past this problem.  She is keying off the other hand, meaning she is lacking in hand independence, and that's a skill she needs, one that IS the basis for many scales as well as repertoire.  (probably anyway)

I suggest a lot more HS scale work on C, and moving on to some other scale where the fingering choice is more critical, like B.  B is pretty obvious, there's one logical way to finger it.  Many of the other scales, C included, have more than one fingering choice that fits all the rules. 

[Bob]

I was also thinking B.

Or maybe C in four octaves.  Even if it's just RH alone.

[lostinidlewonder]

There is no rule of fingering that is violated by playing C major 1234123.  It is absolutely just as good.  

using 1234123 makes the end of scales played with the 4th which seems strange. Also never using the 5th can't be good.

[honeywill]

If she is going wrong only in the second octave, get her to play up the scale and land on the second F and stop there, concentrating on landing on the right fingering on that note. Do that over and over until she really gets it, and then add back the remaining notes of the second octave (one at a time if necessary). Obviously, you can do the same on the way back down.

I don't think landing on the 4th finger at the end of the scale is such a bad thing - after all it is 'normal' for F major. No-one is advocating never using the 5th are they? I think it is important to be flexible as a teacher and recognise that there is more than one way to achieve a desired end.

[perfect_pitch]

If she is going wrong only in the second octave, get her to play up the scale and land on the second F and stop there, concentrating on landing on the right fingering on that note.

Damn - that IS a good idea. Thanks Honeywill... I'm teaching her tomorrow so I will let you know how it goes.

[honeywill]

I aim to please.....*polishes halo*

[nanabush]

I always show the clusters (as mentioned earlier) in this AND arpeggios; if you show how the hand should look based on where the thumb is, you should have two 123 clusters, and two 1234 clusters. 

I also make little rhythmic songs to show the emphasis.  In this case (imagine each note is an eighth value, and after seven notes, there's an 8th rest to make two complete groups of eight)


ONE two three ONE two three four (rest) ONE two three ONE two three four (rest).  If you say that quickly, emphasizing the ONE, it makes a pretty catchy beat. 

I'll do a mix of those and clusters.


Also, make sure that the student isn't just saying "ya ok, that makes sense" then goes home for a week practicing with the wrong fingering, forgetting everything you said during the lesson/wrote in the notebook.  I've had a girl do that so many weeks in a row, that I actually wrote in her notebook "check off here if you read the note book this week", and sure enough no check mark.  She's the kind of student who will totally forget any method you bring to the lesson, stumble through scales/pieces/whatever ONCE a day and consider that ample practicing.

[Bob]

I vaguely remember a problem myself with that. 

Don't forget slow playing.

And really concentrating. 

And working on it until it's right.  Persistence can win out on that one.

[perfect_pitch]

I always show the clusters (as mentioned earlier) in this AND arpeggios; if you show how the hand should look based on where the thumb is, you should have two 123 clusters, and two 1234 clusters. 

-----

Also, make sure that the student isn't just saying "ya ok, that makes sense" then goes home for a week practicing with the wrong fingering, forgetting everything you said during the lesson/wrote in the notebook.  I've had a girl do that so many weeks in a row, that I actually wrote in her notebook "check off here if you read the note book this week", and sure enough no check mark.  She's the kind of student who will totally forget any method you bring to the lesson, stumble through scales/pieces/whatever ONCE a day and consider that ample practicing.

Sadly enough - I've done the Audible 'ONE' saying with her for a few weeks, but that didn't help... and I also spent 5 minutes working on the similar motion scales and I always tell her if she did anything wrong, I've circled wrong notes on her scale sheet (with arrows) but somewhere in there it seems to be an automatically learnt mistake. Where she got it I don't know.

But I'll try honeywills idea first to see if that helps.

[timothy42b]

using 1234123 makes the end of scales played with the 4th which seems strange. Also never using the 5th can't be good.

I don't see why that would be true. 

Unless you only do one octave scales.

Which actually does make some sense.  But nobody recommends it.  And as long as you're in continuous motion you're going to use 1 for the next note anyway. 

But no.  You do 12312341, or 12341231, it makes no difference. 

Scales do not develop the 5th finger.  You must do that some other way.  That's a really artificial objection. 

[timothy42b]

If you are determined to teach the standard fingering, and also determined to teach HT scales, here is an approach that will work.

The more I think about this one the more I think the difficulty is in hand coordination, not fingering order. 

I like HS scales, I think there are more things to be learned that way by far than HT. 

But, try this.  Do this scale HT in two note fragments, all the way up, many many repetitions.  E.g., CDCDCDCDCD etc.  with both hands together.  Then DEDEDEDEDE etc.  You can do them very very fast and crank out a hundred in a few seconds.  All the way up. 

Then start over in three note fragments.  CDECDECDECDECDE.  DEFDEF etc.  When they come easily quit early, the hard ones need a little extra work.  Four note fragments.  Five.  etc. 

This will take a long time the first day.  Probably a whole lesson period, if you decided to spend the lesson time.  But once would be enough to thoroughly learn this scale.  And because the hands have been forced into coordination, the right hand will never again diverge on the second octave. 

[lostinidlewonder]

But no.  You do 12312341, or 12341231, it makes no difference.  

It does make a difference if we look at for instance RH playing 123 1234 123 12345  we notice 3 distinct fingering patterns, where 1234 123 1234 1234 only has 2, and also has two of the same fingering patterns following one another which in my opinion causes more tension. The 5th merely needs to play a part to provide us with some instruction, scales may not aim to develop the 5th with as much focus as Hanon for example but the use of the 5th at the end of scales is still a very important experience.

[scottmcc]

If you are determined to teach the standard fingering, and also determined to teach HT scales, here is an approach that will work.

The more I think about this one the more I think the difficulty is in hand coordination, not fingering order. 

I like HS scales, I think there are more things to be learned that way by far than HT. 

But, try this.  Do this scale HT in two note fragments, all the way up, many many repetitions.  E.g., CDCDCDCDCD etc.  with both hands together.  Then DEDEDEDEDE etc.  You can do them very very fast and crank out a hundred in a few seconds.  All the way up. 

Then start over in three note fragments.  CDECDECDECDECDE.  DEFDEF etc.  When they come easily quit early, the hard ones need a little extra work.  Four note fragments.  Five.  etc. 

This will take a long time the first day.  Probably a whole lesson period, if you decided to spend the lesson time.  But once would be enough to thoroughly learn this scale.  And because the hands have been forced into coordination, the right hand will never again diverge on the second octave. 

I like this plan...sometimes I do something similar, where I'll play cdc, cdedc, cdefedc, etc.  it's actually harder than you would think--you have to really think about turning around smoothly instead of just going through the scale all the way.

[perfect_pitch]

Honeywill - I took your advice... and after spending a couple of minutes on the scales she seemed to think carefully about putting the thumb on the RH F, so I believe that this has helped. I'll give her a week to practice and hopefully next week she'll have re-corrected her fingering.