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Topic: was classical considered pop?  (Read 2389 times)

Offline mark1

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was classical considered pop?
on: July 17, 2004, 05:26:33 PM
My question is more of a historical one. Was classical music ever in the pop forum,so to speak, at any point in history? Ive heard this point made before with my friends but I question it. Wasn't it more of an eletist pursuit in the past? Class divisions being so much more evident in the not so distant past.                                   Mark :)
"...just when you think you're right, you're wrong."

Offline ahmedito

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #1 on: July 17, 2004, 09:45:43 PM
Most of it was once considered pop. That is the point I always try to make when people start saying pop or rap is trash and classical is great. Now, even though most was considered pop, most of the classical music that we know today was not the most famous of its time. Needless to say, people like Telemann were much, much, much more famous than Bach. Or Kalkbrenner more famous than Chopin.

Some of it WAS marked my class diferences, but most of the genres appealed to everyone. It was not until the 16th century in Venice, with the appearance of the first public theaters that this started to happen. Before that, you can see that the music that remains today is either a) popular instrumental music or b) church music.

Wierdly enough, in those days going to church was the equivalent of a Britney Spears concert. People had no TV or access to books, so mass would last 3 or 4 hours and would be monumental and exciting. Imagine, living a life with almost no distractions. Church was a huge show! Candles and lights everywhere, big windows and paintings, all of the church officials dressed in diferent colours and robes, 2 choirs and 3 organs playing Frescobaldi or stuff like that. You got to participate in the chanting, there would be incense and passionate speeches. There was a time that people went to church because it was such a great show!
In the 19th century you had Walz fever, (much like disco in the 1970s) and you also had salon music by composers like Stiebelt and Heinse and Reis (Lizt, schubert and Chopin also composed this kind of music). People would dance the waltz (considered lewd  and inmoral because woman and man danced pressed against each other) all night literally. Some dance halls even had birthing stations so that pregnant women could dance all night. I think the big separation between classical and pop started in the early 20th century... You still had orchestras on the radio and a BIG audience for people like Heifetz or Horowitz or Paderewski (who was as famous and as sex simbolish as Elvis Presley in his youth).
Indeed, recognizing the true nature of a lot of Mozart's or Chopin's music in a popular context is a huge aid towards good interpretation.
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Offline xvimbi

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #2 on: July 17, 2004, 10:10:16 PM
Let's first define what "pop music" is. Maybe the original question will have to be rephrased.

Definitions for "pop music"
1. Music of general appeal to teenagers; a bland watered-down version of rock'n'roll with more rhythm and harmony and an emphasis on romantic love

2. Depending on context, pop music is either an abbreviation of popular music or a term for a sub-genre of it.

The subgenre of pop is perhaps the most widely crowd-pleasing form of popular music. As a rule, pop music features simple, memorable melodies with catchy, singalong choruses, and instrumentally features heavy use of synthesiser backing. It is instantly accessible to anyone culturally initiated, even the musically uninitiated. Successful pop music (and successful pop music is usually measured in terms of its commercial success without any pretence to broader artistic goals) is usually performed by charismatic performers who may or may not be musically talented but who look attractive and may dance well. Songwriting and arranging may be performed by anonymous but well-paid producers.

Producer Frank Farian briefly experimented with the notion of having one party sing a song, and another lip-sync to it. The result was called Milli Vanilli and was hugely successful, until people discovered what was going on.

Pop music is often criticized for being entertaining while lacking serious musical value and artistic significance. This is believed to be primarily due to financial considerations being placed above artistic considerations by recording companies in their selection of artists and songs. Companies often judge that their profits will be maximized by selling music that has the broadest possible appeal (some works of popular music have sold tens of millions of copies). Such music is often unsatisfying to more discerning listeners. This is also at least partially why genres that manage to attain a certain level of credibility as styles in their own right are often no longer considered "pop".

In most of pop music, the record producer is a major contributor, sometimes more important than the artist, through choosing the songs and shaping the sound of the music.

The image of pop performers is often regarded as being as important as their actual music. Consequently, pop performers and their managers make elaborate efforts to project the desired image through their clothing, music video clips, manipulation of the popular press, and similar tactics. Indeed, many pop acts are formulated around achieving the desired image, with music considered later. Boy bands and girl bands are particularly carefully organised in this manner, with members chosen and groomed to fill certain stereotypes to appeal to different personalities of fan.

A particular style of song particularly associated with the pop genre is the love ballad, a slow song in which the performers sing usually highly sentimental songs about various aspects of romantic love.

Well-known pop musicians include Madonna and Michael Jackson (the self-styled "King of Pop") and from earlier days Barry Manilow, Barbra Streisand, Paul Whiteman, and Rudy Vallee. List of popular music performers.

Then, we have "traditional pop music": traditional pop music is the popular music of the late 1940s and early 1950s. It developed from big band music as a result of the emphasis shifting from the band to the singer.

Offline ahmedito

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #3 on: July 17, 2004, 11:36:46 PM
Im pretty sure the original question was not if classical music was once like pop music today literally, but more as: did classical music have once a following and focus like that of pop music today.
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Offline xvimbi

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #4 on: July 18, 2004, 12:40:28 AM
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Im pretty sure the original question was not if classical music was once like pop music today literally, but more as: did classical music have once a following and focus like that of pop music today.

Ahhh, you did rephrase the question!  ;)

Offline ahmedito

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #5 on: July 18, 2004, 12:51:29 AM
By the way, the commercial aims of pop music are also in a lot of classical music. Even in that of greats like Beethoven, Mozart, and of course, Liszt. Where this was rampant of course was in the "lesser composers" and in those actively involved in making popular music for the masses (Johann Strauss or Ofenbach). If a Theme was catchy they would repeat it over again and again in other works or (like Liszt) they would take melodies that were in vogue from famous operas at the time and use them in variations.
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Offline xvimbi

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #6 on: July 18, 2004, 01:06:28 AM
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By the way, the commercial aims of pop music are also in a lot of classical music. Even in that of greats like Beethoven, Mozart, and of course, Liszt. Where this was rampant of course was in the "lesser composers" and in those actively involved in making popular music for the masses (Johann Strauss or Ofenbach). If a Theme was catchy they would repeat it over again and again in other works or (like Liszt) they would take melodies that were in vogue from famous operas at the time and use them in variations.

So in essence, a lot of the attributes listed above in the definitions of "pop music" did in fact apply to the music of two hundred years ago. It's just that what was considered "pop music" in those days is not played at all anymore in our times. The good stuff, i.e. those pieces that survived and are performed over and over and over and over again in our times, was probably not considered pop music then (with some exceptions, particularly the Viennese Waltzes).

BTW, this reminds me of the Futurama episode "A fishful of dollars", where Fry is listening to Rap music and Leela tells him "You can't just sit here in the dark, listening to classical music".  :P

Offline bernhard

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #7 on: July 18, 2004, 02:03:18 AM
Perhaps the most important difference between music in the 20th century and music before is simply availability. The more you go back in time (towards the Middle Ages) the less available music is. During the renaissance and the Baroque, music was something truly extraordinary. It was surrounded by an aura of magic and mysticism. Most people would never in their lifetimes hear a string quartet and even less an orchestra. I agree completely with Ahmedito when he talks about the awesome spectacle a mass was. We are really too far away in time and attitude to even begin to glimpse how miraculous “classical music” was for the majority of the population. I disagree that they would approach it with the spirit that a teenager approaches a Britney Spears concert. They approached with awe, and reverence – a glimpse on things superior only available to superior beings (let us not forget that ideas of democratic equality were far in the future).

Besides Music (with a capital M) was one of the indispensable subjects in a superior (=university) education. And this was really completely outside the possibilities of 99% of the population. Education was power and jealously guarded by the Church and Aristocracy.

Music was also linked to occult and mystical subjects, with secret societies and guilds created around it. It was truly an elite undertaking.

So, no pop music then? Quite the opposite. Pop music then – with a large popular following had nothing to do with Music (with a capital M). It consisted of popular dances, with strong and complex rthythms but simple tunes. It was also the peasant working songs (this kind of music has an important function in alleviating the boredom m and hard work involved in farming). Hence the various harvesting songs/festivals, the planting songs, and so on. This is of course comes down to us as “folksongs” which every composer of Music (with a capital M) has used at one point or another. So we see Scarlatti using all the popular dances and gypsy songs in his sonatas, and yet they are refined and transformed in order to render them usable in the court. And so it is with Handel and Bach in their dance suites. Dances they are, but a world apart from the popular dances that inspired them. The dances themselves undergo a transformation in order to be used by noblemen, the most illustrious example being Louis XVI dance masters. The contrast here is not between pop and classical, but between  noble and vulgar. As the gulf between population and aristocracy deepens, so deepens the gulf between Superior Music and vulgar music.

This reaches its apogee in the Classical period with the aristocracy maintaining their own orchestras for strictly private performances, the privilege of the ultra rich and powerful, as well as symbol of status. In fact Mozart experienced much criticism from the snobbish musicians around him for being “vulgar”.

In Beethoven’s lifetime all starts to change as the bourgeosie becomes an important economic force. And all they want is to be regarded as aristocrats. So even though they cannot really afford to maintain private orchestras, they can do the next best thing: become composer patrons and hold “salons”. So, I would say that is really in the romantic period that music starts to be regarded as a right of everyone. The invention of the piano (every household must have one) and the growth of the music industry (sheet music and the piano were the 19th century equivalent of the CD and the CD player) are really at the bottom of pop music in a more modern sense. Victorian ladies were eager for music not too difficult to play, and yet pleasant enough. Hence Chopin waltzes, Mendelssohn’s song without words and Schumann’s Album leaves (composed at the request of Clara who admonished Schumann to write something easy in order to make some money – implying that no one was interested in his music because it was too difficult to play). And of course all the battalions of inferior composers who were coming in their heels, composing similar stuff but of much inferior quality. (Yes, Viennese Waltzes are a very good example of "pop" music. but they can only happen when the bourgeoisy appears).

So I guess it is all the fault of the piano. (And after that, recorded music put the nail in the coffin).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline ahmedito

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #8 on: July 18, 2004, 02:08:31 AM
But the popularisation of "classical music" did begin before, mainly with the opera and the castratti. With the first public theaters, people would go in hordes to listen to their favorite singer make vocal fireworks... In Mozarts time, people had acces to the comic opera too.

For a good laugh, check out my posts in the audition room, and tell me exactly how terrible they are :)

Offline bernhard

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #9 on: July 18, 2004, 02:27:44 AM
Absolutely. The real "pop" in classical music is opera! And just like pop, it has huge theatrical element. I completely agree.

At the same time, it was a "popularisation" of classical music, in the sense that its origins were not popular like folk music.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline mark1

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #10 on: July 18, 2004, 04:47:42 AM
My question couldn't have been answered better! ;D Thanks Ahmedito, for the info, ...and you wrapped it up nicely Bernhard. My next question may be... where is music going now? ???                                  Mark  
"...just when you think you're right, you're wrong."

Offline dj

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #11 on: July 19, 2004, 06:21:42 AM
Bernhard had mentioned in an earlier post that classical composers of years past had based some of their music on folk music, which was the popular music of the time. does this mean that classical composers of today would be justified in basing some of their works on brittany spears and such? it's a real laugh to think about, but really y not?
rach on!

Offline ahmedito

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #12 on: July 19, 2004, 07:12:56 AM
Its not THAT unheard of... Ive heard some contemporary music that has samplings and elements of pop, heavy metal and rock.... used in GREAT music. Try Gorecki and Phillip Glass for starters.

Debussy and Ravel have elements from salon and dance music (Cakewalks and ragtimes) and Stravinski also has elements from Big Band Jazz.... You just have to listen for them.
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Offline cziffra

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #13 on: July 22, 2004, 03:44:20 AM
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does this mean that classical composers of today would be justified in basing some of their works on brittany spears and such?


hmmmm...interesting....i have always wanted to write a piano version of muse's Hysteria...there's a lot you might be able to do with that bass line...basso continuo anyone?  a chaconne perhaps?  
What it all comes down to is that one does not play the piano with one’s fingers; one plays the piano with one’s mind.-  Glenn Gould

Offline maxy

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #14 on: July 28, 2004, 05:58:03 AM
Strauss Valtzes, Brahms Hungarian dances, Liszt hungarian rhapsodies...  I guess it could have been considered pop...

Spatula

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Re: was classical considered pop?
Reply #15 on: July 29, 2004, 09:36:57 PM
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Some dance halls even had birthing stations so that pregnant women could dance all night.


No wonder the life span of children were so short.  Bouncing up and down in a pool of "water".  Yeah I can see how Classical or new types could be radically different than your vivaldi or hadyn.
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