Serious development problem - teachers can't help, getting confused!

[ggpianogg]

Hi guys,

A disclaimer: this post is NOT intended as some sort of brag/show off, but a serious request in hopes to find a solution. If someone believes that this is a brag, please ignore my post - the best way to make a bragger go away is not to give him any attention, right?

This is a very serious problem for me, I'm starting to get a bit desperate and I no longer know where to look for help (I've been to a few teachers and none of them made a difference so far - explained below), so I'm really hoping you can help me out. Apologies this post is so long, I just felt it was neccessary to properly convey my problem.

I started playing I believe in the very first week of January 2010, on an ooold, small (4 octaves) Yamaha keyboard, the kind you give to children (no weighted keys or anything like that). From the very beginning I've never really had any trouble with "motorics" as I call them (apologies if this is a misleading term); meaning, even with difficult pieces, I had no trouble movement-wise in playing them - I could get the fingering correctly immediately and instinctively, had no serious trouble with speed etc. In my first 2-3 months of playing I could play Mozart's Turkish March, basically any two-part invention by Bach, beginning of beethoven's Pathetique mvmt 1 (the whole first part in "Grave" and the whole first page in "Allegro molto e con brio"), chopin's minute waltz.

The first few months of my playing I didn't really take piano seriously; I played around 1,5 hours a day, wasn't really aiming for anything and was content with simply playing a few pieces. I would often learn only 15% of a piece (for example, a particular part that I liked) and ignore the rest, etc. It wasn't until around 2-3 months ago that I got a "real" piano (a digital unfortunately, but it's quite good I believe - Yamaha CLP 340, at around 3,000$ - very good key action) and started to take it more seriously.

Now came the problem with dynamics/agogics etc. (a problem I never experienced on the old non-weighted keys Yamaha toy-keyboard, for obvious reasons). First few weeks I was just getting accustomed to the new piano, the new weighted action of the keys, etc. I still didn't really have anything like a plan for development, I was just playing this and that, experimenting.

Lately though (the last 1,5 months or so) I've been more and more noticing how terribly I'm lacking in terms of dynamics, evenness of playing, etc. It never bothered me before, even though I of course noticed it. In my opinion this is mostly because I'm trying to play pieces that are far too difficult for me in terms of these aspects I'm mentioning. But since I am able to handle them "motorically" (like I said above), it's very tempting for me to keep playing those pieces instead of focusing on easier ones to improve on these things I'm terribly lacking in.

Now, you're probably thinking "why don't you just get a teacher and have him help you in this". Of course, I've tried. But here is how it has been going for me with teachers:

I've been to probably 6 or 7 different teachers in the past 2 months. In each case, upon showing them what I play (usually I play the part of the pathetique that I know, Chopin's minute waltz and the turkish march) and telling them how long I've been playing, the teacher becomes extremely baffeled, saying that they have never encountered an adult who never played as a child and who would demonstrate such a "level" of playing, and that they simply don't feel competent enough to help me (most of them were teachers with a degree, who have been playing for 20-30 years in some cases), and they refer me to a teacher who is in their opinion better than them. This has happened with every teacher I've been to so far, and I'm going from one teacher to a better one (at least theoretically better). Right now the last teacher I went to referred me to someone supposed to be one of the better teachers in Poland (I'm from Poland btw), a piano professor at Chopin's Warsaw School of Music (it's THE music school here in Poland), and I'm scheduled to meet him a month from now (he is on some tour at the moment). I'm having high hopes for that, but still I feel like I need to tackle this problem on my own for now.

So anyway, you can see where my problem might be at the moment. I am trying to develop all those aspects of playing the piano (dynamics, agogics, etc), but I'm not really sure how to do it. I have tried many different approaches (ones I found through tons of searching on this (and other) forum, but since I don't really have someone to guide me, someone who could tell me "ok this is the right way to go, please continue even if you don't see results quickly", I tend to get discouraged if I don't see noticeable results after applying 1-2 days of one method, I start to think it may be a waste of time, and then jump to the next training method. Because of this I'm sort of going in a circle, not really sure how to develop. I did of course do a lot of searching in this (and other) forums, but didn't really find anything specific, only a lot of different small suggestions by different people, but it's hard to draw a conclusion as to how to develop a progress plan.

What I'm mostly finding a hard time figuring out how to develop:

1. How to do nice cresc/decresc that sound natural and smooth and not "jumpy" (meaning, you almost feel like someone is gently turning up/down the volume with a knob, without any suddent 'jerks').

2. How to voice the notes evenly - so that all the notes have the same loudness when compared to each other, and this loundness only changes when I want it to (I find I especially lose this evenness when hitting the black keys - they come out accented almost always)

3. How to play in such a way that the notes merge with each other into one smooth melody (I'm not talking about legato playing here). Meaning - how to play so that you don't hear the 'attack' of each note, but it is kind of masked by the previous note (I don't have this problem when playing fast passages, definitely much more with slow passages where there are only a few notes repeated over and over, in the left hand for example)I have tried to upload some recordings of myself playing the pathetique and a few other pieces. I actually spent 6 hours yesterday trying to get a decent recording, but no matter what I do the recordings comes out muzzled (I have a poor microphone unfortunately), so I decided not to post at all than to post something that won't help you help me.

I would really, really be greatful for any kind of help here. I realize the questions I'm asking above are very generic, and like I said, I did a ton of searching in the forums (but came out with way too many different results, nothing I can "hang on to"), but I'm kind of stuck here, I'm definitely feeling that this forum is my only hope as of now.

All of this is even more frustrating to me because I have very sensitive hearing to music, and hearing myself play in such a way makes me simply want to play anything else just because my attention is then drawn away from 'expression' and I'm more focused on learning the new piece fingering etc.

What would be the best thing to do in your opinion? Keep playing what I'm playing and focus my whole attention on simply getting the sound I want, playing extremely slowly, and never speeding up until it sounds EXACTLY as I want it? Should I stop learning new pieces and focus only on the ones I know until I've mastred the dynamics etc. in them (that's what I'm doing now - I haven't learned a new piece in almost a month, because I don't see the point if I'm having trouble with the basics)? Should I do some sort of specfic exercises for the problems I've mentioned above?

Any tip is really the value of gold for me at the moment. So please don't hesitate to post ANYTHING. Even if it's already been said by someone, if more than one person tells me the same thing it's likely that this will reinforce my belief that this is the way for me to go. So don't hold back

If you have any questions, if there is anything I can do to help you suggest something to me, please let me know - if it's within my reach, I will do it.

Thanks, and sorry again for such a long post. Thanks to anyone who's made it this far!

[keyboardclass]

The 'dynamic' problems you talk about wouldn't exist if you had the appropriate technique - it then comes naturally.  You'll have to wait for the professor.  Sounds like you'll do well.

[pianowolfi]

1. I think it would be helpful if you work on your patience. It simply needs time and detailed, focused practice in very slow tempi (and in small chunks) to learn a piece seriously.
2. Learn to listen to yourself!
3. Learn to play with weight and dosage of weight (not pressure!) on the keys, because that's what you use for doing dynamics.

[lostinidlewonder]

Study easier pieces and control the musical content in these. If to produce a musical sound while playing you rely on a conscious thought process that specifically commands the hands what to do, then you will be faced with too many difficulties. Acquire musical expression through easier examples and you will eventually make the connection with your more difficult pieces. Play lyrical pieces with lots of singing melodic lines.

[pianissimo123]

Dynamics require allot of control and musical maturity. You have to feel the ebb and flow of
the music. You have to make every note count. When you play, every single little movement you do needs to feel like a part of your previous one. This will grant you fluidity. When you 'feel' out the music as you are playing it, you will begin to feel the varying moods and qualities of a piece. From this, you will find the different voices beginning to emerge.

I hope it goes well for you. You sound very gifted from what I have read. The only piece of advice I can tell you is this- even if your teacher/professor makes you learn an 'easy' piece that you may at first find redundant and boring- stick with it, because eventually it will lead to you improving technical facility. I don't know why - but it seems to work every time! Believe it or not, sometimes the simplest, silliest little things make the greatest impact in one's playing ability.

Have fun! Enjoy your journey! Keep on playing- don't ever stop. 

[gyzzzmo]

The answer to all your questions: Play alot and listen to yourself.
It takes alot of time, but you'll get more and more controll over your fingers and start playing things smoother.

[qoogla_55]

I totally agree with the comments about listening to yourself as I'm experiencing a similar problem. I realise that my playing is more on the "surface" until i listen to myself.

[ggpianogg]

(...)
3. Learn to play with weight and dosage of weight (not pressure!) on the keys, because that's what you use for doing dynamics.

You know what's funny? Since I started playing piano, I've been reading the whole time that you are supposed to play with weight and not pressure. Somehow I always thought I was doing that properly, but after reading your post it kind of struck me that I was only using weight when playing chords, but not when playing anything else. So I just sat in front of the piano and sort of "let go" of any force/pressure I was using before, and literally in a matter of 10 seconds, my playing sounded twice as good as it did just before.

Thanks... I need to keep searching for teachers I guess!

[butterfly79]

Wow, you are very lucky to be so talented. I am an adult student and I would kill to be able to just play. I am not horrible but like most beginners, taking it slow.

As other's have said be patient and try some easier pieces because although they are easier than what you are used to, they will help you with the dynamics. Did you start out with counting while playing? I find that counting the beats while playing has really helped me with the dynamics.

Since you have taught yourself, I have to ask, do you know how to read the music sheets fluently?

I really think having a teacher will help you the best, to guide you. I think for you, you will need a teacher who will be more a guide and perfector of your skill. Maybe that's something you should tell the next teacher you meet.

[ggpianogg]

Hi butterfly79,

I have never counted while playing, no I thought that counting was more to help with keeping the rhythem and a steady 'pulse' (this always came naturally to me). If you use counting for other purposes please let me know, perhaps I'll catch something from you

As for reading sheet music, do you mean to simply "read" the sheet music, or to sight read? If you mean just how to read, then yes, you just need to learn which note on the staff corresponds to which key on the keyboard + learn to read the rhythmic values and some markings. It basically took me only reading two books about the staff and musical notation + analysing a few music sheets myself; I would say anyone can learn to simply 'read' (as in understand what is on the staff) within a maximum of 2-3 weeks.

As for sight reading, that's a bit different for me. I started doing Richman's sight-reading drills about 3 months ago or so, for now I haven't really gotten to sight reading itself as I'm simply doing exercises (which will later combine together into proper sight reading). I have of course on numerous occasions tried my skills to see if I could actually sight read, and as of now I can sight read very simple pieces (up to grade 2 ABRSM, and only if they have one melody line in the bass cleff) at around 60% tempo.

I suspect that I will be done with the exercises in around another 2 months or so, so then I will be able to simply focus on sight reading itself as an exercise. And I suspect that at that point the speed with which my sight-reading ability evolves will increase greatly, so I'm really pushing myself with the exercises (I do about 1,5 hours a day - 1hour from Richman's book and 30 minutes of my own exercises). Hope this helps somehow.

Check out the book if you don't know it - Howard Richman's "Super Sight Reading Secrets" (the title might suggest that this is one of those lame books that try to sell you some magic formula for achieving this or that, but believe me, it's a wonderful book, and very short, too - around 50 pages or so).

Good luck! Let me know if you would like to ask other questions.

[round2609]

I am so glad I came across this post today. I have experienced similar frustrations in that, I feel as though I am making great progress until I listen to myself and then I realize how flawed the dynamics are in my playing.  For example, at times I sound so choppy and mechanical, and it is almost painful to listen to!  I had about a year and half of piano lessons when I was about 14 and now I am 36 and started up again on my own a few months ago.  I have four children, so I don't have the time (or money ) for lessons.

I have played the guitar for 15 years, and understand that it takes time to really be able to express what I feel in my heart into a smooth, moving piece of music.  So when I embarked on learning Fur Elise (the whole thing, not just the easy part haha) I should not have been so optimistic, but I was!  I just feel more motivated to learn on pieces of music that are more advanced than my current skill level...and I have read that for people that are left-handed this is a common trait, which I found interesting! 

Anyway, not trying to bore you with details, but I have been frustrated the same way you have been, except for the fact that I haven't gone to any piano instructors with my problem.  Recently, I experienced the "breakthrough" that I have been hoping for....after playing the first interruption of Fur Elise, the really fast part, and I FINALLY was able to play it the way it is meant to be played.....very fast, but not choppy, and it sounds light and effortless even though I do have to try very hard to make it sound that way.

The only way I was able to do this was through sheer repetition. I have played it hundreds of times over the last three months...and at the same time playing scales and Hanon exercises to improve my technique.  The exercises really helped me gain the control over the keys that I needed, and I realize I still have soooooooo much to learn still. Even if you are very talented, let your fingers become used to this and give them the workout they need so you can master your control.  And don't be too hard on yourself...you sound very gifted and with time you will be an amazing pianist. One of the best things I ever did was stop being hard on myself which was difficult.  I have played the guitar for 15 years and it is so easy for me now that it is hard to remember how tough it was at first.

So take a deep breath, and enjoy the fact that you have accomplished so much so quick!  Keep us posted on your progress and hang in there, you will be able to do what you want to do, I have no doubt!

[gene2701]

hi. i totally understand ur plight. been there, done there. but honestly, its a long road my friend.

what u need to figure out now...is basically the 'essence' of ur own sound. and to do that u need to understand ur hearing and the will to play it in that 'particular moment'

all the problems ur facing...even the greatest professors wouldnm be able to answer u 'too concretely' (if u understand what i mean)

just a few points to rmb

1. do not be fooled by the fanciful world where pple offer u all kinds of 'superficial' solutions to ur ans...it doesn't work. even if it does, trust me, it will bite u back sooner or later.

2. believe in ur will. and as u practice, listen, u will understand what is for u and what is not for u.

3. the crescendo can only be created with ur will.... go check out the masterclasses on youtube by barenboim.

4. keep improving. the world is honestly real big with tons and tons of information..(what fits and what doesn't...u hv to find out urself)

the prob with music..is because there is no fixed 'formula'. because ultimately music is basically nth more than a 'at the moment' thing. u can practice it, but it doesn't mean it is gonna always be perfect. we r constant risk takers.

the only difference between a concert pianist and an amatuer, is the experience level of 'risk taking'. the more u take, the easier it will become.

cheerz mate! hope it helps.