My dream piece

[cchamp27]

Hi,

I've come to this forum seeking the advice of some pianists. You see, I"m actually a violinist but have - accidentally, you could say - gotten good at piano. I am familiar with a lot of the repertoire now but for the advanced pieces I am still in the dark as to their relative difficulty.

Pieces I'm working on now are Brahms Sonata CM, Op. 1 and Ravel Tocatta from Le Tombeau de Couperin. In the last 10 months I've played a Rachmaniov Etude-Tableau op 33/2 (I think?), Schumann Faschingsschwank aus Wien, op. 26, Beethoven Sonata op. 31/3, Beethoven's 3rd concerto, Scriabin Etude Op. 8/10, sprinkled with some Bach and other things.

What I want to know is, how hard, relatively, are the top level concertos - specifically Tchaik 1, Rach 2 and Rach 3 (feel free to add something equivalent). I believe I'm definitely capable of playing something like the Grieg, but I'd like to know how long off is something like Tchaik 1, Rach 2, Rach 3. You know, the equivalent of what the Brahms Vln Conc, Tchaik, Sibelius, et al are in my world =). I like to have a long-term goal, something to work towards if you know what I'm saying

[birba]

OMG  You dabble at the piano in your free time from the violin and play the Ravel Toccata and Brahms sonata, and Beethoven 3rd among other things?!   That's disgusting.    Only teasing, of course.  I think we talked about the Tchaikowsky and Rachmaninov here, once.  I find the Rachmaninov infinitely more difficult then the Tchaikowsky.  But that's personal, I suppose.  I would say, with your background, you're ready to go for the Rachmaninov 2nd.  Wait.  You know what?  You should do the Katchaturian.  A wonderful concerto and very satisfying to play.  Then, maybe the Rachmaninov.  
Anyway, just an opinion...

[point of grace]

i think the tchaik is the easiest russian piano concerto...
i got a concerto for you, but i think first you should be familiar with the language... im talking about Prokofieff piano concerto 1, it's short, wonderful, breathtaking and brilliant. a masterpiece...
but if you are looking for a romantic one, maybe, you should listen to Liszt 1 too, or an easy one could be Mendelssohn 1. anyway, congrats for your goals and good luck!

[cchamp27]

I see. I'm just wondering what are the general top top level concertos per se. I'm surprised Tchaik 1 isn't so relatively difficult (in violin world some people put it on its own level of difficulty). How difficult do Brahms 1 or Brahms 2 stack up? I assume 2 is much more difficult to put together. How frequently do people learn Brahms 1?

[eddie54]

All of those concertos are "hard"...like most masterpieces.  What's taken for granted is the musicality and years of training it takes to play "more than just the notes". 

I've played/performed Tchaikovsky 1 and  Rach 2, but I've studied formally for over 10 years...and there are definite challenges for these concertos.  What's your goal in learning these large concertos?  Performance, or just to prove you can do it? 

In some people's mind, Mozart Concertos are some of the hardest to play, not because of technique but because of the musicality. 

[lostinidlewonder]

The original poster has rattled off some formidable pieces that they have learned in a short period of time with an instrument that was not their main focus. hmmm..

1) we don't know if they mastered these pieces or merely stumbled through them. If you mastered them then that is amazing.

2) If you mastered all these advanced pieces in a short time with an instrument that is not your focus then you are not the type of person to consider difficulty of pieces when tackling them, thus the same attitude should be applied in learning the concertos, which prompts me to wonder why you even bother about considering difficulty if you didn't do so with the few first pieces you learnt already?

[cchamp27]

I've performed all of these pieces in piano juries and received straight A's, and a couple of them in afternoon and studio recitals. I haven't learned every movement of the Schumann, and Beethoven (which I threw in for perspective but had learned before the others and sort of overlaps the time window I had given), making it quite conceivable that any serious musician can learn the same amount of music. My teacher is a faculty member at Juilliard so hopefully that meets your level of accountability. I originally wrote a very wordy response but instead I've edited it to say I'm sorry your caustic skepticism compelled you to take this off-topic. I'm a professional violinist not some meathead who plays pop music on a $100 electric keyboard. Either way it;s completely irrelevant because all I wanted to do was discuss advanced concertos in a way that would bring me to be more familiar with their pedagogical and respected levels of difficulty, so I would be as comfortable relating them to eachother as I am with violin concertos


In this topic I was hoping to arrive through discussion at what the top tier level concertos are something similar to the way they are arranged here: https://www.music.indiana.edu/special_programs/sa/repertoire.shtml#dorothy


My goal is just to learn one of these pieces at a high level of competency, not to perform them. I'm not looking for somethign to learn in the immediate future, but for something to look forward to.  

Back to the topic, yes of course Mozart is always so hard to "pull off". But you don't need to know Paganini Caprices before you can play a Mozart violin concerto at a fairly competent level. I just want to know where the top concertos land in a pedagogical road map if you will. Any word on Brahms? Other additions?

[lostinidlewonder]

My teacher is a faculty member at Juilliard so hopefully that meets your level of accountability.

Why doesn't your teacher (who must be a formidable teacher to be associated with Juilliard) know answers to your questions? I would love to hear his view on this question.

[nikolasideris]

I'd say that most of the 'more difficult' concertos are difficult on their own merit. I mean you begin with an easy Mozart concerto. The C minor one is rather harder than most. Then you move to Beethoven.

I wouldn't dream of saying that the Grieg concerto is an 'easy piece' in any account.

But really, since you are a professional violonist (and I would like to have a word with you more privately. Should I PM you, please?), and play such pieces on the piano, I would assume that you would also have the ability to tell difficult from more difficult from impossible.

The Ravel concerto in G is a very nice one, which isn't too difficult or demanding on the technical aspects. The Prokofiev 2nd and 3rd concertos are VERY difficult (especially the 2nd in G minor). Then there's a more contemporary approach (the Schnittke concerto for piano and strings, for example), which is awesome in my humble opinion, but still probably not what you are looking for.

[mistermoe]

Hi cchamp27

That's not what you are looking for but some days ago i have found a video of julia fischer (the famous vioinist) performing grieg's piano concerto:

&playnext=1&index=74

[orangesodaking]

I'd work on other pieces to develop your technique even more first, so when you get to these pieces, it isn't a large, epic struggle to play them, but you can conquer them confidently and authoritatively. Mozart concerto or Beethoven concerto would be great to start with. Then try a  larger one.

And speaking of Ravel Toccata, I'd like to share this with you:

[ch101]

tchaikovsky 1 is a masterpiece and definitely worth a try

[orangesodaking]

tchaikovsky 1 is a masterpiece and definitely worth a try

This is only my opinion: I cannot find the "mastery" of Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto whenever I compare it to the other "warhorse" concerti like Brahms' 1st, Brahms' 2nd, Rachmaninoff's 3rd, Prokofiev 2nd, or Bartok's 2nd.

I do not want to attack your opinion, especially if you like the concerto, and I'm very sorry if it seems so, but I just wanted to toss in my opinion (that you can openly disagree with if you'd like).

Personally, Brahms 1 is my favorite piano concerto (alongside Busoni's piano concerto, but let's be a tad more practical here for now, haha!) and that is my dream piece.

Which is why I am learning it now.

As with difficulty, if you have the chops to play some octaves, you shouldn't have much of a problem with Tchaikovsky 1. I heard from a couple people that the cadenza near the end of the first movement (not to be confused with the legendary octave part of the third movement) is the hardest part.

I see. I'm just wondering what are the general top top level concertos per se. I'm surprised Tchaik 1 isn't so relatively difficult (in violin world some people put it on its own level of difficulty). How difficult do Brahms 1 or Brahms 2 stack up? I assume 2 is much more difficult to put together. How frequently do people learn Brahms 1?

Brahms 1 and Brahms 2 are both harder than Tchaikovsky 1. Especially the second!!