New Piano Playing Technique

[bass_clef]

Hey. My name is Richard, new to this forum .  First post is going to be a shameless endorsement of my piano teacher. She has allowed me to to play allot more in the past year. I’m normally quite cynical about new methods of piano playing, thinking instead that centuries of pioneers must have got something right. After years of repetitive strain injuries on my wrists and back from spending too long at a computer, I was only able to play the piano for 10 minutes at a time. My yoga friend recommended Piano-Yoga, a technique that incorporates russian piano playing with eastern yoga philosophies. After 6 weeks of Piano-Yoga I noticed a difference, not only in my piano playing, but my overall physical wellbeing. A year down the line, I am now able to play all the pieces from my childhood at length (much to the delight of my neighbours!).

I have bought the book, but a lot of the techniques are available for free from the Piano-Yoga website, so you can at least get started. This technique is also particularly beneficial to pianists with small hands as it works on stretching and strengthening the fingers through ‘flat-fingered’ playing.

Check it out! Let me know what you think

https://www.piano-yoga.com/

Bass

[jpowell]

Hi Zhenya
I'm interested in the heritage of this technique.
Blumenfeld was renowned for his flat-fingered playing which, if we are to believe Horowitz, came directly from Anton Rubinstein.

But I'm not sure that Blumenfeld played *always* with flat fingers. It just sounds improbable. What do you think? I, for one, use it as one of many approaches we can use.

I do remember when you tried to sell me piano-yoga and I declined -- I hope no offence was taken!
All best
Jonathan

[keyboardclass]

I've spent some time playing with extremely flat fingers.  It's good as a yoga technique but not sensitive enough for playing - the finger pads need to feel what they are doing so it's important to be at least slightly bent.  I too have had the soft sell.

[birba]

Am I to believe that the basis of this method is "flat fingers"?  I looked at the site and I saw no mention of this.  I, too, would be hesitant to buy a book on this basis.  I doubt a pianist of the caliber of JPowell would get much out of it.  Perhaps beginners might benefit.  Methods come and go.  The Russian "school" is definitely the most complete study of the entire human body and it's basis of piano-playing.  Flat fingers are fine for a melodic line, but I'd like to see someone perform Weber's c major rondo (the perpetum mobile) with flat fingers.  You're limiting the use of all three joints of the fingers in order to obtain that "jeu-perlé".  Look at Gilels hands.  In fast technical passages, he looks like he's holding a ping-pong ball underneath those chubby little paws.

[thalbergmad]

I’m normally quite cynical about new methods of piano playing

Me too, especially when it is an advert by a brand new member and even more so when a link is posted to a site where the word "transform" is used.

We have had endless links of websites posted here with doubtful methods and overpriced books and I hope it does not happen again.

Thal

[lostinidlewonder]

I find it a little pretentious that the teacher named herself as merely: GéNIA. No last name?

The few examples offered to show the content of the book offer nothing new for me (and when you click on one of the pages it shows you the contents i.e: small hands example page a website error which should be fixed) . The content of the pages in the examples provided are excessively simplistic, I would hope that the pages we are not shown have a lot more content to them because the examples are devoid of much knowledge.

[pabsantor]

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[thalbergmad]

Bloody hell, another one.

Is it a bird?
Is it a Plane?
No, it's RockettPiano

Stuck in a rut?
Want to play all of the "SONGS" you hear and enjoy?
This is the easiest system anywhere.

At Rocket Piano, we have teachers with combined experience of over 30 years and there are only 210 of them. Look at what some of our customers say.

"Hello, I am Jim from Arkansas. I have only been playing the piano for 2 days using Rocket Piano and I can already play Fantasie Impromptu and Campanella"

Sarah aged 3 from Munich says:

"I was born with no arms, but after 10 minutes with Rocket Piano I have mastered all the Godowsky Etudes and greatest hits by Metallica".

Join Rocket Piano now and qualify for 300 yards of toilet paper.

Thal

[birba]

 
I haven't had a side-splitting laugh like that in a long time!!!!!!!!!!!!

[thalbergmad]

At Rocket Piano, we like to make people laugh.

That is why we offer "FREE" piano lessons at only $39.95. Money back guarantee if you are not 100% satisfied.

Thal

[keyboardclass]

Surely they mean Pick-Your-Pocket Piano?

[thalbergmad]

 

[lostinidlewonder]

Bloody hell, another one.

Is it a bird?
Is it a Plane?
No, it's RockettPiano

Stuck in a rut?
Want to play all of the "SONGS" you hear and enjoy?
This is the easiest system anywhere.

At Rocket Piano, we have teachers with combined experience of over 30 years and there are only 210 of them. Look at what some of our customers say.

"Hello, I am Jim from Arkansas. I have only been playing the piano for 2 days using Rocket Piano and I can already play Fantasie Impromptu and Campanella"

Sarah aged 3 from Munich says:

"I was born with no arms, but after 10 minutes with Rocket Piano I have mastered all the Godowsky Etudes and greatest hits by Metallica".

Join Rocket Piano now and qualify for 300 yards of toilet paper.

Thal

Are you their marketing manager?

[perfect_pitch]

I used to play with flat fingers... and that was back when I sucked at piano. Now that my teacher has spent years getting me to curve my fingers - I ain't going back.

I do not believe that flat fingers achieve anything in piano. Horowitz was good, but there were better pianists.

[keyboardclass]

I do not believe that flat fingers achieve anything in piano. Horowitz was good, but there were better pianists.

A) There's flat, then there's flat.   B) There are no better pianists than Horowitz.

[perfect_pitch]

A) There's flat, then there's flat.

Mmm... not to start a fight, but technically 'flat' is a definite. Usually when people say flat they mean with practically no bending of the finger joints...

There can't really be two definitions of flat... but usually when someone says flat fingers - I know what they mean - I used to play like that (kind of like Horowitz).

And personally I believe that Maurizio Pollini was better than Horowitz. Horowitz was a good pianist, but Pollini was brilliant!

[keyboardclass]

There can't really be two definitions of flat... but usually when someone says flat fingers - I know what they mean -

I don't and neither does the speaker usually.  I have played a Bach Prelude so flat that the key is only making contact with the first (one by the knuckles) phalange.

[richard black]

Yes, there's sort-of-flat-most-of-the-time - Horowitz - and there's completely-flat-all-the-time - hopeless. Big difference!

[go12_3]

I think I've read this post about playing with flat fingers elsewhere   
Anyhow, it depends upon the piece on whether the fingers should/ought to be played
flat or curved.  Indeed, it's up to the pianist and how he was trained to play from his
instructor.  Does it really matter?  I mean, as long as the passages are played clearly
and melodically.  The fast passages are usually played with the curved fingers.  Slow
melodic passages, at times flat fingers.  I have tried to play flat fingered on occasion
but somehow my fingers end up being slightly curved and sometimes flat.  Just depends.
There is no correct nor perfect way to play piano, in my opinion, as long as the pianist
plays without banging and being tense.  Which brings to my mind:  technique versus
musicality.  Which is more important?  Or do we need both in order to perform
affectively? 

[pianist1976]

I think that one must know all the possibilities and, after some work, choose what fits best to him/herself. For Horowitz, playing with flat fingers worked. Perfect. But it doesn't mean that this has to work fine for everybody. Every person has his/her own physical and mental configurations so what works for one person can be useless for another one. Horowitz played with flat fingers but had very long ones, Hofmann played with slightly curved fingers. What method is best? These two intelligent pianists chose what worked best for each one. BTW, I can't choose between Hofmann and Horowitz 

[bass_clef]

LOL. Thanks lostinidlewonder! I've already signed up to RockettPiano. The spam is amazing!

Obviously you shouldn't play any piece of music with completely flat fingers. Its just a technique to strengthens and stretches your fingers. There are others in the book.

As far as I'm aware, Genia herself was looking for techniques to help her play (she has small hands). She couldn't find one that worked, so she developed her own encompassing her classical background and her yoga background.

Its GeNIA cos its a business. Its a kinda logo I guess. The GeNIA part is for concerts and performances, piano-yoga is . . . well . . .  for piano yoga. And she also teachers (me).

Bass

[rmbarbosa]

Oh Thal!

[bass_clef]

Just as an interesting note, Genia is related to Horowitz (great grand dauter i think), was taught by her at a very young age (4 i think) and her technique is based on Horowitz's ideas.

Just as a side note 

Bass

[thalbergmad]

Interesting, but a little too late as I have already signed up for Rockettpiano and have just received a metronome in the shape of a Saturn V.

Thal

[ramseytheii]

Just as an interesting note, Genia is related to Horowitz (great grand dauter i think), was taught by her at a very young age (4 i think) and her technique is based on Horowitz's ideas.

"Taught by her"?  Who, Wanda?

I doubt Horowitz would have much to say to a four year old; from what I heard, he didn't have much to say to Juilliard students or professional pianists, either.

Walter Ramsey

[birba]

no, I read up on this gal because I was curious.  A sister of Horowitz, called regina taught her.  Seems she taught quite a few people.  Or maybe she was her aunt.  A great aunt.  Or maybe second cousin twice removed...

[bass_clef]

lol. I'm not too sure. I'm not her promoter . . . . although looking back at my posts it kinda looks as if I am! 

Anyhoo, a good pianist who developed a techniques called Piano-Yoga, who was taught by a cloce realtion to Horowitz, and the technique is influenced by him.

Look online of you are interested 

Bass

[thalbergmad]

I'm not her promoter

 

[maitea]

Bloody hell, another one.

Is it a bird?
Is it a Plane?
No, it's RockettPiano

Stuck in a rut?
Want to play all of the "SONGS" you hear and enjoy?
This is the easiest system anywhere.

At Rocket Piano, we have teachers with combined experience of over 30 years and there are only 210 of them. Look at what some of our customers say.

"Hello, I am Jim from Arkansas. I have only been playing the piano for 2 days using Rocket Piano and I can already play Fantasie Impromptu and Campanella"

Sarah aged 3 from Munich says:

"I was born with no arms, but after 10 minutes with Rocket Piano I have mastered all the Godowsky Etudes and greatest hits by Metallica".

Join Rocket Piano now and qualify for 300 yards of toilet paper.

Thal

This REALLY MADE ME LAUGH!!!!!!!!!!! Wasn't at PS when this discussion was in vogue! Quoting this to get Thal's inspiration sky rocketing again;)

[ade16]

I used to play with flat fingers... and that was back when I sucked at piano. Now that my teacher has spent years getting me to curve my fingers - I ain't going back.

I do not believe that flat fingers achieve anything in piano. Horowitz was good, but there were better pianists.

Rubbish!
It was Liszt who first made this into a valid alternative technique, in certain passages of music only. They don't come much better than Liszt, who invented the bloody piano recital in the first place! Horowitz was good, but there were better pianists???  What a load of utterly opinionated, unsubstantiated, badly thought out nonsense!!!

[j_menz]

They don't come much better than Liszt


  What a load of utterly opinionated, unsubstantiated, badly thought out nonsense!!!

Do you have any hard evidence of the first, like a recording, to avoid being guilty of the second? We only have other people's opinions of Liszt's playing. No independent verification. Not all of them agreed that he was without parallel. And no way of comparing him with later pianists at all.

[ade16]

Do you have any hard evidence of the first, like a recording, to avoid being guilty of the second? We only have other people's opinions of Liszt's playing. No independent verification. Not all of them agreed that he was without parallel. And no way of comparing him with later pianists at all.

Not true! I suggest you dig deeper! Since when is a recording proof of anything? I actually think witnesses to live performance are far more reliable, whether now or in the past; seeing the playing as well as hearing it; the acoustics of the venue, small or large, the whole atmosphere, everything! Even the best recordings are only ever going to be the next best thing to a live performance of any kind, whether piano recital, chamber music, orchestral, choral etc. For example, you cannot achieve the full experience of Mahler's 8th Symphony from a recording, however good your sound reproduction equipment! With a piano recital there are further kinds of subtleties you can pick up from a live concert that you cannot on a recording, for example pedalling effects in a particular acoustic, the flat-fingered technique that the previous poster referred to etc etc It is not just about listening, but also about relating what you can see to what you can hear. How does a pianist achieve that particularly subtle effect or nuance? You can see it in a recital, particularly if you get good seats with an excellent view of the keyboard, which I always try to do. I have seen Brendel live several times, and have been close enough to see the plasters on the tips of his fingers which he used to protect his fingertips! He also had the piano retuned during the interval. Perhaps a bit neurotic, but not many would question his greatness as a pianist. Again, some great recordings available, but you cannot really grasp his true greatness from these!

I've also done my research over many years and specialised in the history and development of keyboard technique from C.P.E. Bach to the present day, as part of my Masters in Music degree, following on from majoring in piano studies as part of my first degree at London University. I do not mean to come across as pompous, arrogant or conceited, that is not my style! I am merely pointing out that I have done a great deal of very deep research into this.

The truth is out there if you dig deep enough. Sadly there are no recordings of Liszt of course (I am assuming you were being flippant), but there were more than just a few expert opinions; how about the first hand experiences of Chopin or Brahms for example, and many other well known musicians of the time? Brahms hated Liszt's own compositions and famously fell asleep during Liszt's own performance of the B minor Sonata. Nevertheless, the young Brahms had no reservations about Liszt's absolute mastery of the keyboard. Keep digging, there's plenty of evidence out there. I do not particularly like Liszt's music, but I respect his well known reputation as an outstanding musician, for which there is a great deal of evidence actually. By the way I never suggested that Liszt was without parallel, merely that he was one of the greatest pianists in history, along with Beethoven for example. Just because there are no recordings of Beethoven either, this does not mean that there were not plenty of first hand reports, and very reliable ones, from his pupils for example, regarding his playing. For example, there are many reliable accounts from Ferdinand Rees, referring in great detail to Beethoven's keyboard technique, use of pedal etc.

I am not going to quote the finer details from my entire dissertation! But just to make the point that my opinions are not just plucked out of the air with little thought, unlike some posters in this forum! That is what I meant by "a load of utterly opinionated, unsubstantiated, badly thought out nonsense!!!" There is plenty of that around! My opinions may only be opinions, but at least they are well thought-out arguments, based on direct experience and deep research. I do not make throw-away, unsubstantiated comments; my degree work has trained me not to!

[thalbergmad]

Gawd, never thought this old thread would be turfed up.

Best left to die.

Thal

[j_menz]

Not true! I suggest you dig deeper! Since when is a recording proof of anything?

I didn't mean to suggest Liszt wasn't a great pianist, clearly he was. And first hand experience is better than any recording.

But in comparing techniques and styles across extended periods the expectations of listeners - the prevailing aesthetic and the quality of the "competition" - become increasingly significant and can distort comparison. One must also be ever vigilant about the accuracy of descriptions of playing, too, in that two people can watch a pianist do the same thing and come up with two seemingly different descriptions of what is being done - numerous discussions on PianoStreet amply demonstrate that.

No doubt those matters were part of your research.

[ade16]

I didn't mean to suggest Liszt wasn't a great pianist, clearly he was. And first hand experience is better than any recording.

But in comparing techniques and styles across extended periods the expectations of listeners - the prevailing aesthetic and the quality of the "competition" - become increasingly significant and can distort comparison. One must also be ever vigilant about the accuracy of descriptions of playing, too, in that two people can watch a pianist do the same thing and come up with two seemingly different descriptions of what is being done - numerous discussions on PianoStreet amply demonstrate that.

No doubt those matters were part of your research.

Indeed! All such discussions are inevitably going to be highly subjective! That is always going to be the case of course when considering any aspect of the arts, including theatre, film and painting for example. 

[perfect_pitch]

Gawd, never thought this old thread would be turfed up.

I don't know - it was worth seeing this post again... made me laugh up a lung   

Bloody hell, another one.

Is it a bird?
Is it a Plane?
No, it's RockettPiano

Stuck in a rut?
Want to play all of the "SONGS" you hear and enjoy?
This is the easiest system anywhere.

At Rocket Piano, we have teachers with combined experience of over 30 years and there are only 210 of them. Look at what some of our customers say.

"Hello, I am Jim from Arkansas. I have only been playing the piano for 2 days using Rocket Piano and I can already play Fantasie Impromptu and Campanella"

Sarah aged 3 from Munich says:

"I was born with no arms, but after 10 minutes with Rocket Piano I have mastered all the Godowsky Etudes and greatest hits by Metallica".

Join Rocket Piano now and qualify for 300 yards of toilet paper.