\"\"
Piano Forum logo

Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering (Read 6727 times)

Offline extroitus

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 15
Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
« on: August 01, 2010, 08:36:01 AM »
This difficult bar is dangerous to my fourth finger. How should I avoid getting hurt? Is the fingering 12421242124... something to consider instead?

piano sheet music of Etude


Offline pianisten1989

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1525
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #1 on: August 01, 2010, 09:48:56 AM »
I don't get it, what's the problem with the fingering that's in the music?
Move your wrist along with the notes, and you wont get hurt...

Offline fitzbonkelworthy

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 1
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #2 on: August 01, 2010, 11:38:36 AM »
I suggest rather than injure yourself you use left hand second finger on the c each time?? chris swithinbank

Offline ramseytheii

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2515
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #3 on: August 01, 2010, 12:21:15 PM »
This passage is sometimes played as 2-3-1-3-2-3-1-3 etc.

It should be possible with the fingering published, but this bar and another bar are often simplified like that.

Walter Ramsey



Offline pianisten1989

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1525
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #4 on: August 01, 2010, 12:38:24 PM »
Or use 3 instead of 4. I just tried it, and it's way easier...

Offline gyzzzmo

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2210
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #5 on: August 01, 2010, 02:33:14 PM »
If you play it on high speed, and get forced to make a proper rolling motion you'll see its fine using that 4th finger, even if you have small hands.
1+1=11

Offline extroitus

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 15
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #6 on: August 01, 2010, 06:35:00 PM »
My problem is that the fourth finger gets stuck between the a-flat and the b-flat key. Then, stretching to hit the e-flat with the fifth finger is cumbersome... Probably, I should try to curl the fourth finger, hitting the key close to the front of the keyboard and let the fourth finger be the centre of rotation. But all that is difficult. I'm just an amateur. Maybe I should try using the left hand instead...

Offline stevebob

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1133
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #7 on: August 01, 2010, 09:29:21 PM »
I do think that aiming for a slightly different position of the finger on the key may help.

You should keep in mind that this etude (specifically the spans of the arpeggios) is about movement and motion, though, not stretching.

Workarounds (e.g., employing the left hand, or fundamentally altering the fingering pattern from 1-2-4-5 or 1-2-3-5) don't make any sense to me in etudes.  They defeat the purpose of an etude, and I think they would actually be harder to pull off in the long run with speed and evenness that match the rest of the piece.
What passes you ain't for you.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5707
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #8 on: August 02, 2010, 12:46:44 AM »
The trick is to try the Rh without the 5th to start with using exactly the fingering as the score suggest. If you simply play 124 constantly and leave out the 5th you will find that this is the best fingering for the CEbA chord. However when we add the 5th finger playing the octaves this can cause you trouble especially if you are trying to connect your 4th to the 5th with some finger legato. I would suggest simply playing without the 5th, feel the movement in your hand as you play, then add the 5th and do not alter the feeling, you will resemble what needs to be done. The 5th finger playing those Eb octaves is the culprit making your arpeggio feel so difficult and ruining your 4th fingers position so put your focus on this.
124 2124 2124 etc fingering is bad since it tends to make it sound like: 212 4   instead of the proper  
5 124 and thus causes tension to act against even though the fingering may seem easier.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline wert718

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #9 on: August 02, 2010, 03:35:46 PM »
Stay with the fingering and roll your wrist. That's what I did.
John 3:16

Offline brogers70

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 994
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #10 on: August 10, 2010, 05:51:17 AM »
My problem is that the fourth finger gets stuck between the a-flat and the b-flat key. Then, stretching to hit the e-flat with the fifth finger is cumbersome... Probably, I should try to curl the fourth finger, hitting the key close to the front of the keyboard and let the fourth finger be the centre of rotation. But all that is difficult. I'm just an amateur. Maybe I should try using the left hand instead...

I'm just an amateur, too. I love that measure. I think rolling the hand helps. Also just moving the hand laterally up the keyboard quickly helps. I would not plonk 4 down between the Ab and Bb; just play close to the front, as you suggest, and then move your whole hand forward a bit as 5 goes for the Eb. Also, don't think that you have to keep 4 on the A while you hit the second Eb - it's impossible to connect all the notes in these wide arpeggios legato. You're allowed to use the pedal.

For all of these arpeggios I find it fun just to relax and try several ways of moving the hands (but always using the original fingering). It's easy to move your hand quickly up and down the keyboard or in and out, and those movements can save a lot of painful contortion of the hands. For example the descending arpeggio just before you hit the A major chord - D-G#-E-Bb is easier for me if I just move my whole hand forward to catch the black notes and backwards to catch the white - it saves uncomfortable ab/adduction at the wrist.

But I'm really just an amateur, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Offline birba

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3738
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #11 on: August 10, 2010, 08:23:57 AM »
This passage also gave me lots of problems and I resolved it with
1-2-4-2-1-2-4-etc then coming down in the next bar 5-2-1-3-5-2-1-3etc.
Also ramsey's suggestion is good.
Once I saw a pianist play the whole etude with two hands.  :o  (And she wasn't just using the left hand for the octaves.

Offline pianowolfi

  • PS Gold Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5658
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #12 on: August 10, 2010, 09:32:21 AM »
I found this quite inspiring:




and

Offline birba

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3738
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #13 on: August 10, 2010, 12:50:14 PM »
This guy's phenomenal!  But I didn't get his name.  Who is he?  Besides being a brilliant pianist (at least as far as op-10 no.1 goes) he's a brilliant explainer and pedagogue.  REally enjoyed listening to this.  Thanks for posting!
Oh, by the way.  Can you figure out why he plays and e instead of a d in the last quarter of bar no. 4?  But only in the first video.

Offline littletune

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2502
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 01:17:07 PM »
Well isn't his name in the title of the video? Paul Barton? And you can also click on the video to watch it on youtube and then you can go to his youtube channel if you click on his name. :) here:

this is his youtube Channel page :)

Offline pianowolfi

  • PS Gold Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5658
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #15 on: August 13, 2010, 07:42:04 PM »
This guy's phenomenal!  But I didn't get his name.  Who is he?  Besides being a brilliant pianist (at least as far as op-10 no.1 goes) he's a brilliant explainer and pedagogue.  REally enjoyed listening to this.  Thanks for posting!
Oh, by the way.  Can you figure out why he plays and e instead of a d in the last quarter of bar no. 4?  But only in the first video.

I couldn't figure that out, I think it's just a little flaw.

I also like his videos very much and I agree with you :)
He's like the piano teacher I would have needed when I was 20 or less. Positive and clear, openminded, able to communicate the technique and not making a blurry mystery out of it, just straight away and all this in a very encouraging manner.
It's anyway in itself enough of a "mystery" and "secret" and actually not so many people achieve his level.

I honestly can't get enough of it and watch it over and over again :)

Offline go12_3

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1781
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #16 on: August 13, 2010, 11:52:53 PM »
That You Tube of Paul Barton will be helpful in my learning this Etude...it's a challenge with
small hands and little fingers, but I've learned to move my arm and hand to play those
arpeggios.   :)
Yesterday was the day that passed,
Today is the day I live and love,Tomorrow is day of hope and promises...

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5707
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #17 on: August 14, 2010, 01:49:20 AM »
Problem with the video is that it does not highlight the small difference between right and wrong when playing at slower tempos. So people may practice slower but incorporate incorrect movements which you can do at slower tempos but at faster you will be punished. It is nice he goes through the sections musically.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.facebook.com/groups/348933611793249/

Offline cmg

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1042
Re: Chopin op. 10.1 - fingering
«Reply #18 on: August 29, 2010, 05:13:09 PM »
Thanks, Pianowolfi, for putting Barton's tutorial up!  Fantastic teacher.  

He doesn't seem to mention, however, something beautifully incorporated in his playing.  It's the "bowing technique" of his hand, i.e. the ever-so-slight falling of the wrist on accented notes with the ever-so-slight rising of the wrist to complete the gesture.  I've been studying the Etudes with a student of the legendary Nadia Reisenberg here in NYC and this rising and falling wrist action gives your hand micro-bursts of relaxation in every bar of Opus 10, No. 1.  You absolutely need that to get through this Etude and this pianist demonstrates that technical awareness perfectly.  The movement also insures a fluid, horizontal gesture up and down this keyboard, which this Etude requires.

Also, without really talking about it, he shows over and over again at a slow tempo how the hand must contract for the thumb placement in each gesture.  This movement, as well, relaxes the hand in micro-moments throughout the Etude.  
Current repertoire:  "Come to Jesus" (in whole-notes)