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Topic: Memorizing instead of reading  (Read 3796 times)

Offline Lightnin

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Memorizing instead of reading
on: July 21, 2004, 01:56:09 AM
I'm a beginner - about 8 months, when I didnt know what middle C was... And I think I have started on the wrong foot.

The problem: I can "read" the sheet music, but I cant play it as I read it. Everything I can play so far, I do entirely by first memorizing it, then I have no further use for the sheet music. The memorizing is not hard (easy two page stuff), pretty much automatic, it just happens as I am trying to figure out what the notes are. I repeat it many times slowly with a metronome, one measure, then a four measure pattern, then this pattern and then that pattern. My fingers can play those memorized patterns, not sure how, but it happens (not sure yet how long it might be retained either). The concept is "this key, then that key", meaning I generally never have any sense if I am playing a C or a G at the instant. I could know, but there's no need this way. Starting points and chords and jumps are perhaps exceptions, when I probably know a note name.

Not reading is a poor plan of course, and I really want to correct that, however getting started reading has been tough. I feel sure I am overthinking it.

I can do fairly well in most cases by reading intervals, thinking down a fifth, then up one. My eyes and fingers seem able to do that, but the teacher says that's not good, for one thing, it cant help much when there are 2 or 3 notes on the one stem. And wider jumps dont work well, needs frequent resync.

On a couple of beginning songs that had finger numbers liberally printed, I could also easily play 5,3,2,3,2,1,2, as it is marked. That cant be good either, and my only point is that my fingers do appear to work that way OK, if I know which finger, I can play it (we're talking easy stuff).

The teacher says the right way is to first dont look at the keys, and to "see" the letter note name on the music sheet, and then the corresponding finger should go down (my paraphrase). To some degree, I can "not look" at the keys, in that finger memory covers it now. Figuring out the staff notes is not much problem, a split second, and much of it is already automatic. I do that to get started now, so this seems the easy part. But I have no comprehension of the which-finger part, other than memory (in which case I no longer need the music).

The letter names of the keyboard keys are obvious of course, except that I have no clue what key name is currently under the other fingers without looking at it or for it. This part seems the main problem of playing the G on the sheet music. I cant seem to quickly convert the note name to finger number in my mind. I cant see G and think finger 5, which I assume is necessary. It's not always 5 of course.

I suppose the only realistic answer is that one must "just know" or remember where all ten fingers are at any one time, as they move around. But how seems less clear.

I assume one keeps up with the lowest finger's note on each hand, then it is like intervals on the fingers from the first one, but using actual note names? Can anyone describe the actual mental process, or does one "just know" somehow? Are there any crutches to aid learning how to do this part? The hours of practice should include this concept somehow?

If little kids can do this, one would hope old geezers could learn it too. <g> For now, I just do what I can do (memorizing or reading intervals), but am still hoping to actually learn reading, as such.

I know everyone has been there, done that, and probably still has dreams about it. Any words of wisdom? All ideas are very welcome. Thanks.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #1 on: July 21, 2004, 02:59:46 AM
It is all right to start withthe wrong foot, just make sure you do not start with the wrong hand! ;D

Sight reading is a popular subject in the forum.

I suggest you get Richmann's book and have a look in these threads (just a few that discuss sight reading). If you still have questions, come back.

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1048235978
(teaching very small children – pros and cons of sight reading – good thread)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1061861871
(an interesting French book)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1069725044
(Good thread, mentions the sideways staff)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1081187434
(How to teach bass clef)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1081684084
(good post by faulty on the wrongs of pedagogy)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1081624578
(detailed explanation of the sight-reading process)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1073131731
(discussion of Richman’s book)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1087022500
(more discussion on Richmann’s book)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1071914342
(Cambridge word scramble example)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1085793013
(tips for not looking at the keyboard, answers to critical reviews of Richman's book)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline goalevan

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #2 on: July 21, 2004, 03:15:43 AM
I agree 100% with Bernhard on this one. Get Richman's book. Check out those threads and you're set.

Offline donjuan

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #3 on: July 21, 2004, 05:43:13 AM
I just bought Richman's book as a result of Bernhard and Goaleven here..
cmon, conform damnit! (j/k)

Offline Lightnin

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #4 on: July 21, 2004, 07:08:14 AM
Quote
I just bought Richman's book as a result of Bernhard and Goaleven here..
cmon, conform damnit! (j/k)


Thanks all.    Actually I already have that book, but have only skimmed it once.  The sight-reading part of it appears to be  pages 38-40 (and the 2 pages of music notes).   People here seem happy with it, so maybe I dont get it, and probably I should rethink it.   It doesnt answer the question I had, but does suggest a different approach of saying the note out loud.

FWIW, I just ordered another book named:    Music Reading for Keyboard: The Complete Method (Musicians Institute Essential Concepts) by Steelman Larry

I know nothing about it, and have never seen it, except that it is also about $10, 128 pages vs 48, and gets much better ratings on Amazon, so it seemed worth a look.

Offline goalevan

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #5 on: July 21, 2004, 07:29:51 AM
I have the Steelman book and the Richman book. The Steelman book is nothing more than progressively harder pieces and rhythm exercises to sight read. It may help you but let's face it, Richman's way of separating the processes of sight reading and approaching them all systematically will help you out more than any progressive based book like Steelman's.

And you say your problem is playing music as you're reading it - Richman's book takes steps within the first couple of drills that cover exactly this. You may think that because Richman's book is shorter, it has less content and less information that can help you, but in reality most of the Richman drills use the 370 Bach Chorals as sight reading exercises.  It took me over a month to sight read through them all just once using his visual perception 5 drill at about an hour or more average of work each day.

If I were you I would take some time and follow some of the links Bernhard posted for more infomation on this, I believe we analyze some of the amazon reviews in a thread as well. But from reading your situation I think Richman would be a great program for you to get into.

Good luck

Offline donjuan

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #6 on: July 21, 2004, 08:30:27 AM
Quote
in reality most of the Richman drills use the 370 Bach Chorals as sight reading exercises.  It took me over a month to sight read through them all just once using his visual perception 5 drill at about an hour or more average of work each day.

Goalevan, do you know of a place where I could download the chorales?  

Offline goalevan

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #7 on: July 22, 2004, 05:26:55 PM
not that I know of, I sheet music archive only has a couple of them, there's 371 total. I got a good edition from amazon for cheap that has them all plus more harmonized melodies. And the pages don't shut on you :). here's the link:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0793525748/qid=1090506286/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-3725771-2446322?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Offline Chris_Repertoire

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #8 on: July 22, 2004, 06:09:01 PM
It doesn't matter if you can't "name" a key as you play it (look at a note on the page real fast and say "that's an F.")  

I've been playing for almost a year and it hasn't hurt me at all. I am still able to sight read reasonably fine.

I am an adult learner to. I think that may have something to do with it.

What is important is that you see a note (note as a letter but a mark somewhere on a staff) and you can map it to a finger without much effort.  

Offline Lightnin

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #9 on: July 22, 2004, 06:23:25 PM
Quote
It doesn't matter if you can't "name" a key as you play it (look at a note on the page real fast and say "that's an F.")  

I've been playing for almost a year and it hasn't hurt me at all. I am still able to sight read reasonably fine.

I am an adult learner to. I think that may have something to do with it.

What is important is that you see a note (note as a letter but a mark somewhere on a staff) and you can map it to a finger without much effort.  



So are you aware of any specific technique you use to do that finger mapping?   I assume you must be reading intervals, like down a third, then up one?   And recognizing chords as such, but mostly relying on memory for multiple notes on one stem?

At least that's the best that I can do... I can know the note letter if I want, but I dont bother, as it seems unnecessary information and overhead. <g>

Offline donjuan

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #10 on: July 22, 2004, 07:15:32 PM
Quote
not that I know of, I sheet music archive only has a couple of them, there's 371 total. I got a good edition from amazon for cheap that has them all plus more harmonized melodies. And the pages don't shut on you :). here's the link:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0793525748/qid=1090506286/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-3725771-2446322?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

that sounds like a good book goalevan, but does sightreading the chorales have any advantage over sightreading the two part inventions?  (are the chorales easier?)
donjuan

Offline joeltr888

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #11 on: July 22, 2004, 07:47:07 PM
Quote

that sounds like a good book goalevan, but does sightreading the chorales have any advantage over sightreading the two part inventions?  (are the chorales easier?)
donjuan


The chorales are in 4 voice texture (2 staves if you buy the right edition) meaning the notes are a bit harder to read on sight. The reason the inventions are in practice more difficult to sight-read is because of the technical difficulties (finger/hand independence) and rhythm involved. The chorales are generally homorhythmic, meaning that when you sight read them you are basically spreading your hands to different intervals and tracing 1 or 2 melodies at once. The whole process gives you a very good grasp of the keyboard.  

Offline goalevan

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #12 on: July 22, 2004, 10:37:57 PM
howard recommends to get an edition that combines the voices into one grand staff, which this edition does. the reasons the chorals are better for sight reading is because generally each hand will play 2 or 3 notes at a time, and it'll allow you to practice feeling for intervals.  also, they are easier, and there's so many of them that you will never memorize any of them. But you don't start sight reading them to speed, if you've read ahead on the VP's, he has you do some hands separate playing first to get a feel for all the intervals then work towards doing hands together legato, then worrying about rhythms.

Offline donjuan

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #13 on: July 22, 2004, 11:29:52 PM
ok goalevan, ill bite.  I just ordered the book of chorales.

Offline Yanni

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #14 on: August 02, 2004, 07:11:34 PM
There is absolutly no problem with learning peices you cannot read. In my expirience I have always had a gift of being able to memmorize anything I would play. I just finished my grade eight year with everything and with those peices and other peices I use for dinner music and such I have apporx, 30 full scores at the grade 7 level or higher all in my memory. Unfortunalty I to do not even know how this is possible. Do not fear this gift as it is a good thing, my teacher says it is a very rare ability to be so strongly gifted by the ear. As you develope you will find that reading sheet music will come over time. For me I am still behind people at my level but it dosen't matter because with a simple few listens to a peice on a CD I can pretty well play most of it completely. You have been blessed with a good pitch which some pianists dream to have. Personally I would take it over being technically advanced any day of the week. My advice would be to keep nurchering this gift because it will only bring you good things, but also work hard at your week points and if they are anything like mine they would be reading and technique. When you get signifcantly better at technique and have the natural gift of an ear you will be unstoppable.

Offline capei

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #15 on: August 02, 2004, 09:08:34 PM
everyone,
     Sight reading is important in music. It's hard to memorize a long piece. Playing by ear is not sufficient.
I'll explain more later. I'm busy. Sorry for the inconvienience

Offline jbmajor

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Re: Memorizing instead of reading
Reply #16 on: August 04, 2004, 04:14:55 AM
I agree in sightreading being important, and it is something that I have to improve on more than I've been doing so far.  

I too memorize songs, if not for lack of sight-reading skills, then for the simple fact that I don't have to carry the music around with me whenever I want to play.  I feel that as on improves in technique and has a feel for the keyboard, that sightreading should gradually become easier.  

All you can do is keep practicing. :)
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