Studying a new piece, concerning speed, HS or HT

[mplim]

I have a question about how to study/practice a new piece in relation to the required speed. I have always learned to practice a new piece hands separate HS first and then HT. My question now is, must one learn HS in the required speed first, before going to HT?
Thanks for any replies.

[gyzzzmo]

Start learning a piece slowly HT. If a certain passage is really giving you technical difficulties you can always practise HS.
Learning pieces HS from the start is only advice from a bad teacher, or ofcourse for a student who just started playing piano and can hardly sightread anything.

[stevebob]

Start learning a piece slowly HT. If a certain passage is really giving you technical difficulties you can always practise HS.
Learning pieces HS from the start is only advice from a bad teacher, or ofcourse for a student who just started playing piano and can hardly sightread anything.

Such generalizations are nonsensical, invalid, and, in my opinion, simply wrong.

[fleetfingers]

If you can play it rythmically correct with HT, then go ahead and put the hands together. Even if it is slow. Then, separate the hands again and try playing them at a faster tempo. Then, go back to HT and see if you can up the speed. Just play around with it and do what works. What matters is the results, and experimenting with different methods of practicing will give you an idea of how to get those results.

[perfect_pitch]

Such generalizations are nonsensical, invalid, and, in my opinion, simply wrong.

Depends actually - I disagree with this to a point.

For beginner students (Say very beginners to grade 6 level) I recommend learning hands separately simply because they don't have the ability to read note letters instantly (and I mean instantly), plus they usually don't have the co-ordination to attempt to play the notes hands together for the first time. Sight-reading for a number of years helps this ability.

But once you get to learning Grade 7 pieces etc... I believe that it is best to encourage them to try and learn hands together simply because I believe that they must learn to (from the very beginning) get used to the movement of both arms as they are playing and to think about their co-ordination as they begin learning a piece of music.

I started learning my FMusA pieces hands together... I did take them incredibly slow, but I truly believe that hands together is the best way to learn, only once you can play proficiently.

[mplim]

Thanks for all the replies! I have noticed about the same issue is already discussed on this forum, but is has developed in a quarrel (see "Why Hands Separate"). Nobody is helped with quarreling.

My own problem is, that my hands go totally out of control when I start to play HT after learning HS first at the right speed. On the other hand, when I start HT immediately, I can play a new piece only very very slow, and it takes a long time to get to the right required speed. For me the "speed" is the big problem, not the reading or learning a new piece. That's why I asked this question.

Playing Andante is never a problem, but playing Allegro is always a big problem, not to speak about Presto.

If anybody can give me any more advice about "speed HT" please do so. I would be very grateful. Thanks!

[timothy42b]

If anybody can give me any more advice about "speed HT" please do so. I would be very grateful. Thanks!

Playing HS at or above tempo helps, and is probably necessary for those of us at less-than-advanced levels.

But as you are noticing, HT carries with it some specific difficulties that are not fixed by the HS practice.  I.e., HS is "necessary but not sufficient," as the mathematicians say.

So what you do is identify the specific difficulties and fix them one by one. 

For example.  You say you can't speed up the piece, but I'd bet you can play some measures very fast and other measures not.  You work on the hard measure.  It may even be the hard one beat.  There is some kind of awkward technical motion for that one chord change that has to be worked out, that holds you back from the whole piece. 

To practice HT, you have to simplify.  You have simplified by reducing speed, but you are finding out that isn't fixing the problem, so you need a different simplification.  Do you know about chunking, and dropping notes?  Outlining?  (outlining hasn't helped me, but others find it very worthwhile) 

[fleetfingers]

You are saying that you CAN play at speed with HS. If that is the case, then speed is not the problem.

For my beginning students that can't read music yet, I teach HS, then HT. When we put the hands together, they will always try to play it as fast as HS. It's not going to happen. Your brain and fingers have to get used to the coordination between the two parts. There is no choice but to start slowly and work up to speed by playing it over and over.

That is why I suggested in the other thread that HT from the start is always best, provided the piece isn't well beyond your sightreading level. My humble advice, as I am no expert, is to discipline yourself to play HT as accurately as you can from the beginning. Take the time to train your fingers to play every accent, staccato, legato, correct fingering, correct rhythm, even playing, etc. Playing the piano is largely about muscle memory, and if you get used to playing it sloppily, it will just take more time later to clean it up. Investing time when first starting a piece to play it HT and to play it right will pay off in the end. Just keep at it, and eventually it will get faster the more you play it.

Having said that, I can think of three instances when HS can be beneficial:

1. If you are attempting a very difficult piece that is too hard to sightread HT
2. To aid in memorization.
3. To clean up specific sections of a piece

If anyone can think of other benefits to separating the hands, please comment. These are the ones I thought of, but there are probably more.

[timothy42b]

There is no choice but to start slowly and work up to speed by playing it over and over.

The single worst piece of advice ever given on a forum, and it repeats here endlessly.

It is by far the least efficient method of practice invented.  Yet also the most common, since it is intuitive.

No choice?  I gave you at least three in my last post. 

[fleetfingers]

To practice HT, you have to simplify.  You have simplified by reducing speed, but you are finding out that isn't fixing the problem, so you need a different simplification.  Do you know about chunking, and dropping notes?  Outlining?  (outlining hasn't helped me, but others find it very worthwhile) 

I am curious - what do you mean by 'chunking', 'dropping notes', and 'outlining'? Perhaps I use these methods in my own study but call them something else.

I am also curious as to what makes working up to speed the LEAST efficient practice method. It works well for me, but maybe I take longer to learn pieces than I should.

[stevebob]

The single worst piece of advice ever given on a forum, and it repeats here endlessly.

It is by far the least efficient method of practice invented.  Yet also the most common, since it is intuitive.

No choice?  I gave you at least three in my last post. 

Hey, at least fleetfingers characterized his advice as “humble” and himself as “no expert”—and has now responded without insults and personal attacks.

[timothy42b]

I am curious - what do you mean by 'chunking', 'dropping notes', and 'outlining'? Perhaps I use these methods in my own study but call them something else.

Very likely you do.  I'll try to describe them briefly.  The legendary Bernhard has done so much more eloquently than I could, so if I don't make any sense don't give up, but do a search instead.

Chunking is the selection of a short repeatable element.  It may be a measure, several measures, or part of a measure.  It allows you to focus on a specific technical difficulty and master it by repeating it endlessly.  With the handbell choir I direct, I frequently select one measure and have them repeat it continuously until it gells.  Then I add another, then combine them, etc.  You have to include the conjunction in this.

Dropping notes was a revelation to me.  It comes from Bernhard, not chang.  Hee, hee.  It is the single most effective method I've ever found for overcoming the HT difficulty.  It is not so much oriented to a specific technical difficulty as it is for the general two hands coordination problem we beginners struggle with.  Of course, YMMV, but it works for me.  I should probably use it more often as first resort than last resort.  Briefly, you select a repeatable element.  You play the left hand continuously, over and over.  Then you add one right hand note each time you come around.  Then two.  Three.  Etc.  Eventually you have added in the entire right hand at tempo.  Then you start all over again with the right hand, adding one note at a time with the left.  It may seem like this takes a long time.  But it is actually faster than just starting slow and speeding up, and yields a better product.  I have never had this one fail. 

Outlining is something I have not personally had much success with.  Maybe I needed a teacher attuned to it.  Basically you rewrite the music, simplifying it, but retaining the complex fingering.  For example, you take a four part Bach fugue and reduce it to a two part, but you use the same fingering you'll eventually use with four.  This is supposed to be highly effective, but my efforts have not been very successful, so probably I"m doing it wrong. 

I am also curious as to what makes working up to speed the LEAST efficient practice method. It works well for me, but maybe I take longer to learn pieces than I should.

Not all methods of working up to speed fail.  But starting slow and working up incrementally is often recommended, yet also decried by the better teachers.  It is inefficient, because you spend too much time working at easy tempos for the majority of the piece.  And it is dangerous, because you can build speed walls.  But my main objection is philosophical.  It contains an element of magical thinking, whereupon "paying your dues" is rewarded with success.  And that just doesn't happen in the real world. 

I hope I haven't offended.  It was never my attention to attack you personally.  My objection is to the slow speedup method, and that may not be what you are recommending. 

[timothy42b]

Hey, at least fleetfingers characterized his advice as “humble” and himself as “no expert”—and has now responded without insults and personal attacks.

Yes, he has showed truly amazing restraint and open mindedness.  Kudos!

[stevebob]

I hope you didn't think I was suggesting that you had made a personal attack!  If so, I apologize for my carelessness.  I was making an oblique reference to the "other" HS thread that was mentioned earlier, in which a Wonder Teacher—a self-styled expert who is anything but humble—didn't hesitate to subject me to ridicule and insults.

I was just making a silly and gratuitous commentary on how different the exchange between you two has been; I realize now that I took for granted that the reference would be clear, though I shouldn't have.

[mplim]

Everybody, thanks so much for all the advice and explanations. I recognize very much what tymothy42b has written, I can play some parts fast enough, but other measurements are a pitfall. And indeed this ruins the whole piece. From now on I will play HT from the start, since I have no problems with reading. I'll try to begin slowly and will certainly recognize the pitfall measurements. If I have understood it correctly, these measurements I'll have to repeat it over and over again HT (chunking) until it is in my fingers. The "dropping notes" is totally new to me. From now on I'll try to do this too. The "outlining" I don't understand so well what it means, what to do exactly.

I'm very grateful for all the advice given and I really hope this will solve my "speed problem". Thanks, everybody!

[lostinidlewonder]

Thanks for all the replies! I have noticed about the same issue is already discussed on this forum, but is has developed in a quarrel (see "Why Hands Separate"). Nobody is helped with quarreling.

One can ignore the quarreling and focus on the content that was discussed before hand. The fact that there is a disagreement is extremely important for a forum to observe so that they do not get tricked into thinking that there is only one way in considering an issue.

My own problem is, that my hands go totally out of control when I start to play HT after learning HS first at the right speed. On the other hand, when I start HT immediately, I can play a new piece only very very slow, and it takes a long time to get to the right required speed. For me the "speed" is the big problem, not the reading or learning a new piece. That's why I asked this question.

Learning HS at tempo is just a simple waste of time and if you are laboring on it in isolation to HT you are setting yourself up simply for more work. Play hands together and learn using controlled pauses and simplification to the score to help you maintain some form of fluidity to your tempo. How to use these two tools effectively is a vast topic and difficult to provide to you personally since I do not know your two hands or brain. You have at least discovered that if you can play HS perfectly it does not help much when you try to do HT, it does help somewhat but not enough to play HT as easily as you do HS. Thus to increase efficiency of your approach to studying piano you should be doing HT and only using HS to patch up problems for a brief moment only (even a couple of minutes is too inefficient for the developed pianist to labor on HS!).

The mentality should be, I am doing HS so I can solve an issue with my HT, not I am doing HS in isolation to HT in hope that a connection will be made with no conscious thought on my own behalf. And the only way to determine your HT issues is to practice HT not HS. You can still do HS work if you are doing HT work but you cannot do HT work if you are simply doing HS, it is much more of a mental struggle to consider HS and bind that to HT if you are not using two hands but when you are using two hands you may consciously forget about one hand and focus on the other which is a HS effort, or you may simplify which is also a HS effort, or you may use controlled pauses which is a HT effort AND HS effort. Much more effective from my experience.

[fleetfingers]

timothy42b-

Thank you for explaining the terms. Yes, chunking is something I absolutely do. If there is a section that I am having technical difficulties with, I will isolate it and work it out.

Dropping notes and outlining are both new to me and are interesting ideas...I'll have to give them a try.

When I suggested working it up to speed, I was assuming the piece could be played all the way through without any major stumbling (mplim said that he has no problem with the reading). If this is the case, then I feel that my advice to sightread HT then work up to speed is sound. I just don't think it is necessary to begin by playing hands separate. That is what I understood the debate to be about, and I stand by my opinion. 

[stevebob]

Learning HS at tempo is just a simple waste of time ....

Errm ... that's just your opinion, and stating it authority as though it were a fact doesn't make it so.  And even if were ineffective (though it is not in my experience), adults can decide for themselves how to allocate their time and can judge for themselves if it is wasted or not.  If someone wishes to sit and stare into space for hours on end, that's his or her prerogative—and it's for him or her to decide if it's a "simple waste of time" or actually a worthwhile endeavor.

I urged you in the "other" thread not to conflate facts and opinions, and the result was personal invective from you and an attempt to impugn my credibility even though I've played piano literally my entire life.  In the present discussion you've restrained yourself from ad hominem attacks although pedagogical advice has been made by at least one self-identified beginner.  I hope that can continue.

[lostinidlewonder]

When one says waste of time that does not mean it is useless and has no purpose so you are twisting my words to satisfy your own ideological stance on me. You can do HS but it will waste your time you will spend more time learning your piece.

I teach piano almost every single day of the year so I think I am more qualified to talk about HT/HS or any other piano teaching tool than those who merely teach themselves piano, whether you agree with that fact or not is not my problem, I trust people more who actually say things based on positive industry results whether you do not is no ones problem. I am yet to meet any professional pianist or advanced student isolate the hands completely when practicing what most of us consider Hands Separate work. I will be happy to meet one and see their method if it maintains efficiency, so far it is a curiosity which has not been satisfied. Given that most pianists are beginner/intermediate HS certainly has its place, but you are severely mistaken (or at least I believe so since I am yet to see anything that points in that direction) if you believe that HS is a major player of developed efficient piano study, again it has its place but it is a small tool not something you base your practice method on .

[stevebob]

Whatever works!  I'll continue to favor using a broad spectrum of tools (and HS is one of them, albeit limited to specific reasons and purposes).  And while "positive industry results" are inherently interesting, I'm concerned most about my own positive personal results.

[timothy42b]

Learning HS at tempo is just a simple waste of time and if you are laboring on it in isolation to HT you are setting yourself up simply for more work.

Doesn't it depend on what the difficulties are?  The difficulties of coordination with HT are different from the technique advances you learn from HS.  Experienced pianists have worked out many of the technical difficulties already and benefit less from HS.  I'm not at that point yet.  As you implied in the other thread, specific approaches for specific problems.

At any rate, working HS at tempo and above is normally not that hard nor time consuming.   

You have at least discovered that if you can play HS perfectly it does not help much when you try to do HT, it does help somewhat but not enough to play HT as easily as you do HS.

Yes, but that doesn't rule out potential benefits from the HS.  The set of difficulties solvable through HS are separate from those that appear with HT.  It doesn't logically follow that solving the HT problems automatically cures the HS ones; in fact some of the HT ones may be impossible without the HS work.  This could vary greatly between person, I suppose.  I really struggled with Invention 1.  Extensive HS work was the only way I made progress.  My teacher concurred though she was not a fan of HS in general.  On the other hand, I work a lot on SATB hymns.  I do that largely HT, because the difficulties are hand coordination ones that don't seem to benefit much from HS. 

Thus to increase efficiency of your approach to studying piano you should be doing HT and only using HS to patch up problems for a brief moment only (even a couple of minutes is too inefficient for the developed pianist to labor on HS!).

A beginner will never play a piece HT fast enough to learn any dexterity.  I suggest there needs to be a sufficient level of HS work as well.  Gieseking among others agrees;  in fact he insists scales should always be done HS for various reasons.