What is this cat doing?

[Bob]

Because then there's this sad video....

... except I'm wondering if it's just people projecting human traits onto that cat.

[stevebob]

I couldn't watch the sad video, but it looks like what's going on in both instances is "kneading":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneading_%28cats%29

You're probably right about "cardiac massage" being a case of anthropomorphism, and I think that the comment by the human in the first video (about Guinness getting a "back rub" from Toulouse) was as well.

While kneading behavior is well known, it's not typically done by one adult cat to another; without being able to see into the cats' minds, it would be hard to know their motivation in either case to perform what appears to be massage.

[birba]

Stevebob said it all.  I, too, couldn't watch the second video.

[pianowolfi]

Yes I also think stevebob is right.

I have seen that sad video before and it looks as if that cat is really very sad and can't comprehend what happened and uses his instincts to do the best he can. I think animals have feelings like we do.

[littletune]

Yes that second video made me VERY sad and made me feel really bad.    I was really sorry I started watching it, but I didn't know.... I couldn't believe that someone would really post a video of a dead cat  so I thought it wasn't for real at first  it's soooooooooo sad!! 
And I think the people who think that animals don't feel anything and don't know anything are just stupid!  That's just like people who think that kids are stupid!  I mean if someone thinks in a different way that doesn't mean they're stupid! And if kids and animals think in a different way and act in a different way than grownups that doesn't mean they're stupid or that they can't feel anything. 
Once we saw a hedgehog that was hit by a car and was dead already and was lying in the middle of the road and another hedgehog was trying all the time to go there too  and when there were no cars that other hedgehog was there with the dead one all the time.  And we scared the hedgehog away so it wouldn't get hit by a car too, but when we went away it was trying to get there again  it was soooo sad  and then someone carried the dead hedgehog away because otherwise the other one would get hit by a car too. 
And once when I was very little we had just two fish and one got sick and couldn't even swim ok anymore and she was swimming for a while but then she was just lying on the side. (well i don't know if it was a she or he, but they both had girl's names). So then the other one was swimming around the sick one all the time and then she tried lifting her up. She would help her get up and then they were swimming side by side so that the sick fish was leaning on the other one. And then she lied down and after a while the other fish helped her get up and swim again. And then that sick fish really got better! Because usually if fish are lying on their side they don't live for very long anymore, just a few days maybe, but that one got better and lived for a while. Well she didn't live as long as the other one (the other one lived really long, like about 7 years I think). But it was so nice cause the other one really helped her! And this was really really true!! I didn't just make something up or imagine something just cause I was a little kid! cause my mum saw it too and she still tells people about it if someone thinks that animals don't feel and don't  know anything!!

[pianowolfi]

Thank you littletune, for this wonderful post!  

[birba]

I'll second that.

[thalbergmad]

I am convinced that animals are intelligent and have feelings.

I have a book at home (forget the name and author) which investigates dogs that seem to know when their owners were coming home. Everything possible was done to try and fool the dog, such as coming home late, not using the car, not shutting the gate, but still the dog would know when its owner was nearing home.

Very interesting.

Thal

[Bob]

I think the cat in the sad video might be aware the other cat is dead and might actually be trying to help it with the kneading.   But that's as far as I could go with it.

I did see some videos of animals, dogs usually, taking care of other animals or people and one where a healthy dog dragged another dog who had been hit by a car off the road where it was safer. 

I was wondering about that kneading motion.  It's a weird cat thing.

[gep]

Indeed a very sad video (the 2nd I mean), couldn't watch it further... Animals surely do have feelings too, as anyone who has had (and cared for) a pet very well knows!

I have a book at home (forget the name and author) which investigates dogs that seem to know when their owners were coming home. Everything possible was done to try and fool the dog, such as coming home late, not using the car, not shutting the gate, but still the dog would know when its owner was nearing home.

I've actually seen a documentary on that on TV (Discovery or National Geographic I think). No matter what they did, the dog knew when its master came home. The people doing the filming didn;t know when the owner would come home (who came home at different random times), so they could not influence the experiment. Almost spooky...
But then, I once lived with cats (you do not own cats, they own themselves) that knew it was Tuesday, on which day the fish seller would come. Both cats were posting at the window from 10AM, the salesman came between 10 and 11. How did they tell the time, and how did they tell the day?
And I know about a dog here in the village that pined away after its master died, going to the grave every single day after the burial. The dog was not present when the man was buried,so how did the dog know which grave to go to? But the animal did go to the grave, day after day until he died himself some weeks later.
Animals do have feelings, and are generely much more honest in them than humans, I think!

gep

[stevebob]

Albert Schweitzer's well-known quotation seems appropriate here:

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life:  music and cats."

(I would add dogs to that ... or any companion animal, really.)

[mistermoe]

It makes me sad that people can actually doubt that animals have feelings. 

[Bob]

I don't doubt they have feelings.  I don't think they're giving backrubs and attempting cardio treatments. 

I wouldn't be surprised if they have no clue what death is.  Although I think they would some idea, as in the second video.

There are some pretty stupid animals though.  Which is good because I like to eat them.  They're probably bred into being that stupid.  Also sad, but I get hungry and they taste good.

[littletune]

  Well yes I guess it's easier to eat something if you imagine it's just stupid and doesn't know and feel anything    But how would you know that some animals are just stupid? Have you ever been one? Or can you read their mind?   

[birba]

 I think Bob is sort of pulling your leg.  At least I hope so!  I, too, am sure those cats don't know what they're doing.  They're thinking out of the box.  They feel, they act.  They don't reason.  That's their beauty and why we have so much to learn from them.

[Bob]

Well yes I guess it's easier to eat something if you imagine it's just stupid and doesn't know and feel anything     But how would you know that some animals are just stupid? Have you ever been one? Or can you read their mind?    

I've seen them.  I had been thinking, "Oh man, I'm eating this poor defenseless animal."  Shortly after that I saw some live ones.  It didn't look like much was going on upstairs and I felt better about eating them.  I'm still thinking though if you bred them.... (or bread them, mmmm....) ... and some people keep them as pets....  You probably could have some intelligent, although edible, animals.  I would just prefer to stupid ones without any personality.  I'd be all for synthetic, lab-grown meat -- if they could reproduce just the steak meat (and make it healthier too while they're at it) -- that would solve the problem of eating something that was alive and had a personality.


*Bob ponders the nutritional value of "smart steak" or cattle that have been educated.*

*Bob further ponders having a hamburger talk back at him before eating it.   Hamburger says, "Heeeeeeelllooo!...    Wait!  Wait!  Don't  eat me!  Don't eat m...."*

[lostinidlewonder]

We do feel sadness for animals in situations like these, but how we are so apathetic when we see starving children or people dying on the tv and people with no home living on the street (probably because we have been fed so much human violence/suffering in media over the past century). We are weird sometimes aren't we, when we see an animal which is worth nothing compared to a human and it effects us so deeply. I remember when I buried my first dog my other dog started whimpering and sat on top of the grave for a long time. I think animals are so wonderful to teach us about responsibility and the process of life and death.

Personally I am not saddened by cats getting hit by cars. Dogs are supposed to be kept in yards yet owners let their cats roam the area killing wildlife (a huge problem in Australia with all of our exotic animals), marking their smelly territory, walking all over your car and scratching it up etc etc. In Australia they where thinking of making it that cats had to be kept in the yard just like a dog, as an owner of cats all my life I whole heartedly agree with this.

In the video of the cat giving cardiac, I severely doubt that is what it is doing, and I don't even think it realizes the other cat is dead at all. It is trying to.... have sex with it. When cats start using their hind legs as well that is a sexual motion. Well that is what I have observed from my male cats over 30 odd years of owning cats. It is very amusing watching them do that dance at first (it gets very irritating over the years!), I had male cats who love their particular toy and try to do that all the time.

[stevebob]

A necrophile cat!  You should start posting your own YouTube videos.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm against kitty porn.

[alessandro]

Personally I am not saddened by cats getting hit by cars. Dogs are supposed to be kept in yards yet owners let their cats roam the area killing wildlife (a huge problem in Australia with all of our exotic animals), marking their smelly territory, walking all over your car and scratching it up etc etc. In Australia they where thinking of making it that cats had to be kept in the yard just like a dog, as an owner of cats all my life I whole heartedly agree with this.

Isn't that a tough thing to say that you are not saddened by cats getting hit by cars ? Do you take into consideration that 'lifewise' the cat exists longer than the automobile and the "streets" and that they are not fully familiar with the concept of a motorised engine with mistlamps, honking the horn, that drives by at a 60 miles an hour".   I think that some of those cats "freeze" by anguish just before dying that way.   (I once even heard a person say that he is not saddened when he (himself) hits a cat with his car.)   I think that this type of death is a very cruel one, and it only demonstrates the 'violence' that is often inherent at driving a car.  It's also very clear for me that some people really turn into some kind of warriors once they have their hands on the steering wheel of their automobile.


And, just out of curiosity, how would you keep your cat inside a yard :-) ; with a piece of rope or a chain ? a cage ? or a high wall with gate far enough from any tree ?

Very kind greetings lostinidlewonder and everyone.

[lostinidlewonder]

Isn't that a tough thing to say that you are not saddened by cats getting hit by cars ?

Well it is a sad thing to see them dead I'm certainly not jumping for joy over it, but what caused it causes more annoyance in me than sadness. The cats owners let their pet run all over the place. When I see cats running free around the neighborhood you can bet that most of them have killed many birds, lizards, possums other wildlife. It is a real serious problem here in my country, I hate feral cats and they all should be shot dead because of the destruction they cause to our native animals. Pet cats also can turn into these destructive animals as their instinct takes over and they kill their prey just because they are compelled to do so. I remember when I was much younger we had 12+ cats that lived outside, every day they would bring wildlife to our doorstep and feel very proud of it (although i have to say we always where happy when they caught mice or rats, but they just don't know the difference of what is good to get or not).

And, just out of curiosity, how would you keep your cat inside a yard :-) ; with a piece of rope or a chain ? a cage ? or a high wall with gate far enough from any tree ?

Cats are perfectly happy inside the house but if you have to let them outside train them to walk with a leash on like a dog, it is harder to train them but certainly possible and the cheapest option. I have a student who has a massive outdoor maze that their cat can walk through, they really love their pet. Not all of us can afford that, but really you shouldn't ever let your cats run outside, they end up dead, injured from fights and you have to spend up to clear up abscesses, or end up killing wildlife and annoying your neighbors by crapping in their gardens and marking their cars, doors etc. I personally know a few instances where I have had students literally have massive fights with their neighbors over their cats ruining their property. Personal friends also have had arguments with neighbors over their loose cats, it just gets out of hand sometimes!

[perfect_pitch]

I bet you the cat on top is just pawing for the other cats wallet   

[birba]

Well it is a sad thing to see them dead I'm certainly not jumping for joy over it, but what caused it causes more annoyance in me than sadness. The cats owners let their pet run all over the place. When I see cats running free around the neighborhood you can bet that most of them have killed many birds, lizards, possums other wildlife. It is a real serious problem here in my country, I hate feral cats and they all should be shot dead because of the destruction they cause to our native animals. Pet cats also can turn into these destructive animals as their instinct takes over and they kill their prey just because they are compelled to do so. I remember when I was much younger we had 12+ cats that lived outside, every day they would bring wildlife to our doorstep and feel very proud of it (although i have to say we always where happy when they caught mice or rats, but they just don't know the difference of what is good to get or not).
Cats are perfectly happy inside the house but if you have to let them outside train them to walk with a leash on like a dog, it is harder to train them but certainly possible and the cheapest option. I have a student who has a massive outdoor maze that their cat can walk through, they really love their pet. Not all of us can afford that, but really you shouldn't ever let your cats run outside, they end up dead, injured from fights and you have to spend up to clear up abscesses, or end up killing wildlife and annoying your neighbors by crapping in their gardens and marking their cars, doors etc. I personally know a few instances where I have had students literally have massive fights with their neighbors over their cats ruining their property. Personal friends also have had arguments with neighbors over their loose cats, it just gets out of hand sometimes!

Your choices are very arbitrary.  Why don't mice, rats or feral cats enter into your "protected game" programme.  I have a feeling you live on a farm somewhere in  New Zealand or Australia where they might have a problem with overpopulation of feral cats, and where the mice eat the corn.  That would explain your hard-heartedness towards certain animals.  If the delicate ecological balance is upset in the world, you can be sure it's not the animals' fault.

[stevebob]

Outright hatred for feral cats is difficult to understand.  They're descended from domestic cats, and the circumstance in which they find themselves is entirely due to irresponsible behavior by humans.

Where unwanted colonies of feral cats are a problem, programs to trap, neuter and release them are a practical and humane solution.  Thinking they should be "shot dead" is not (except to those who believe animals are "worth nothing compared to a human").

[birba]

RIGHT ON, Stevebob!!!

[lostinidlewonder]

If you guys don't have any understanding of how introduced species can cause catastrophic effects on a natural ecosystem, well you better go back to primary school!

Why don't mice, rats or feral cats enter into your "protected game" programme.  

They are considered pests in most western cultures. One only has to research "Bubonic Plague" to understand one reason why these rodents are not very much liked.

I have a feeling you live on a farm somewhere in New Zealand or Australia where they might have a problem with overpopulation of feral cats, and where the mice eat the corn.  That would explain your hard-heartedness towards certain animals.  If the delicate ecological balance is upset in the world, you can be sure it's not the animals' fault.

I don't live on a farm. It is common sense here in Australia that introduced species which run wild cause major destruction to our ecosystem. I am not really interested in discussing the issue because it can easily be googled.

If you like feral animals then I would love to see you take in a feral cat or wild rat into your home. I would rather shoot it dead.

Outright hatred for feral cats is difficult to understand.

They serve zero purpose except to kill/compete with the native species and multiply in number.

They're descended from domestic cats, and the circumstance in which they find themselves is entirely due to irresponsible behavior by humans.

However in this world we respect humans a lot more than animals and since it is impossible to work out which feral cat descended from which person who let loose their pet, you just shoot dead these horrible feral animals, if you don't like shooting then poison them. In many countries unwanted pet cats which are not feral are put down every day, so is it barbaric to put down these animals? Should we just let them loose and multiply? Insane policy.

You want to sterilize every single feral cat? Even more insane.

[stevebob]

If you guys don't have any understanding of how introduced species can cause catastrophic effects on a natural ecosystem, well you better go back to primary school!
They are considered pests in most western cultures. One only has to research "Bubonic Plague" to understand one reason why these rodents are not very much liked.

I don't live on a farm. It is common sense here in Australia that introduced species which run wild cause major destruction to our ecosystem. I am not really interested in discussing the issue because it can easily be googled.

If you like feral animals then I would love to see you take in a feral cat or wild rat into your home. I would rather shoot it dead.
They serve zero purpose except to kill/compete with the native species and multiply in number.
However in this world we respect humans a lot more than animals and since it is impossible to work out which feral cat descended from which person who let loose their pet, you just shoot dead these horrible feral animals, if you don't like shooting then poison them. In many countries unwanted pet cats which are not feral are put down every day, so is it barbaric to put down these animals? Should we just let them loose and multiply? Insane policy.

You want to sterilize every single feral cat? Even more insane.

"Go back to primary school"?  No, thanks.  That's not necessary.

You're advocating violence toward defenseless animals, and I do think that's "barbaric" (though no one else besides you has used that word here).

For what it's worth, it's untrue that "we respect humans a lot more than animals" (emphasis mine).  I'm certain some people do; others surely do not.  I respect life, and I think that being at the top of the food chain mandates compassionate treatment toward all creatures (especially if you imagine that humans are different from, and superior to, so-called lower animals).

[birba]

No, I think you're insane.  "If you don't like shooting them, then poison them"?!  I have to hand it to you.  You speak from the gut.  But considering the suffering a living being goes through being poisoned, then I guess you're right.  Shoot them.  Since humans were responsible for this ecological upset, I think they should try to right the wrong in the most humane manner.  And sterilizing them is the only way to do it without causing unnecessary suffering.  It might take longer, it might cost more, it is certainly more complicated, but if you really consider the value of any animal or human life, it is the only way.

[lostinidlewonder]

I have said my bit now I shall go before this special Olympics debate makes me crazy.

[stevebob]

I have said my bit now I shall go before this special Olympics debate makes me crazy.

I wonder how this debate bears comparison with the Special Olympics.

[thalbergmad]

I love my next door neighbours cat, but i would happily shoot my next door neighbour.

Just my 2 cents worth in this increasingly strange exchange.

If cats had midi sockets, we could really go off the rails with this one.

Thal

[littletune]

I think it would be better if I didn't comment... because I get very angry if people think about animals like they're not worth anything........ and I start saying REALLY bad things....    i mean REEEEALLLLYYYYYYY BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD things! so everyone is like      because they're not used to hearing such bad things from me............  and they're not used to seeing me soooo angry!  so i don't know if i should even say anything because sometimes if i start i just can't stop anymore      but some people are really stupid and selfish and i hate them! and i wish they would just die so the world would be better! and if there are any animal species somewhere where they don't belong it's not cause they came there by themselves but because STUPID PEOPLE brought them there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So i think then those people should suffer and die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if they did such a bad thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not the animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! cause it's NOT their fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's stupid defected selfish disgusting PEOPLE'S FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sooooooooooooooo sorry sometimes im a human!!!!!!!!!!!! And besides what if animals would kill us all cause we came here later than they did!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think the people who think that animals are not worth anything and that it's not bad if they die and suffer, I think people like that are bad people and if something happens like a war or something they start thinking this way about other people too!!!!!!!! And they think oh well those people are not worth anyhing because they're different than we are! let's kill them! there's too much of them anyway! and they are somewhere where we should be! let's just destroy them all cause they're annoying and they're stupid anyway and they don't have the right to be here anyway so let's just shoot them all! they're not worth as much as we are anyway! so we have the right to kill them !!!      first you think like that about animals and then if something like a war happens then you start thinking this way about other people too! 
i hate this world sometimes!!! 

[perfect_pitch]

i hate this world sometimes!!! 

Well, there are only two options - Get used to it...



(and the other - you don't want to know)

[stevebob]

"Some things you never get used to" (or so sang Diana Ross & The Supremes in 1968 in the hit song by that name written by Ashford & Simpson).

[birba]

What you have to get used to, Littletune, are people like lostinidlewonder.  They will never go away.   

[littletune]

Well, there are only two options - Get used to it...



(and the other - you don't want to know)

well im not gonna!  and i know what the other option is. that i die! don't worry im sure someone is gonna shoot me soon or something, cause im just a stupid annoying kid from a small and unimportant country so im not really worth very much so im sure someone's gonna shoot me real soon! and i don't even care!  oh maybe my neighbour is going to do it cause he is sooo bothered by my piano playing! so no worries!

Oh and I wanted to say that I'm sure animals know when someone is dead! maybe not in the same way as people but in some ways they know it even better than people!

Oh and something else.... it's really not very hard for cats to get used to going for a walk on a leash (if they get used to it when they're little), my cat really likes it, and it's safer for her that way cause there are a lot of roads around here.

Oh and something else, do people get any wiser after some time or do they just stay lost for ever   

I also wanted to tell something nice that I forgot to say in my first post here, but now I really don't feel like it anymore!   

[stevebob]

I’ve never tried to leash-train a cat.  Apparently some cats seem to find it agreeable (or at least tolerable), but I’m convinced that it would inappropriate, hazardous or impossible for many (if not most) other cats.

Every cat has a unique personality, but it’s possible to categorize them by temperament or confidence level.  In my experience, cats tend to be either bold and assertive—or, on the other hand, shy and easily intimidated or frightened.  A calm, self-assured cat would handle being walked on a leash very differently from a skittish and fearful one.

My own biggest fear in that situation would be that a cherished pet would manage to slip out of even a “secure” harness and then never been seen again—so I wouldn’t subject cats to such a potential danger when they routinely live long and happy lives without ever going outside at all.  They require independence, and subjecting them to a situation in which their movement is controlled on a leash like a dog isn’t natural; I can’t find a reason or purpose even to consider doing it.

[littletune]

Well I don't know about other cats... my cat likes it a lot.... maybe she learned it form my dog I don't know.... and we never take her somewhere where it would be dangerous. Most of the time she just likes to sit on the stairs and look down.... and I sit with her and my dog too. So it's not exactly like a dog walk.... just being outside for a while... cause she always wanted to go with us when she saw that we went out for a walk with my dog, so when we come back from a walk with my dog, we let my cat go see what it's like ouside too cause she really wants that....

[birba]

I used to take my beloved Snowball on a leash, and she didn't mind it.  I was living in an apartment at the time and she was my first experience with a pet cat.  She LOVED going outside. But she was a kitten when I got her used to it.  Then, when I bought a house out in the country, she would just sit outside all day, but she never roamed far.  Since then, I've had 5 cats out here and none of them became feral cats, even though they had complete run in the woods.
It was so funny once, I caught misciolina with a little country mouse in her mouth and I grabbed her and made her let it go.  The mouse turned around and bit me!!!!  You can't interfere with nature's ways.

[minor9th]

The first one is adorable, but I had to turn off the second one. My wife was reduced to tears within a few seconds. We keep our two cats inside.

[Bob]

This will make up for the sad one.  I like when the cat is hanging its front legs.

[birba]

I haven't had a laugh like that one in a long time!  Cats are truly special.   

[littletune]

Yes that was really funny!   
Well my dog and my cat are really funny too, they were just eating fish food now!!  some of it fell on the floor and they just ate it all! I didn't even have to clean it up 

[mistermoe]

That discussion above really made me sick!

Thanx stevebob, birba and littletune for having your heart in the right place.