Hand Span of 12th

[LHSN]

I am studying classical piano but recenetly I have been extremely disappointed to find out that some compositions require a span of 12th, e.g. Henselt piano concerto and Rachmaninoff's 3rd concerto. I can barely span my hand up to 10th but with practice it is becoming somewhat easier. However 11th, let alone 12th, I think is an impossibility!
If you can, please give me some advice of what can I do to increase my span. I have began playing over a year ago and now I am 20. Do you know any other compositions that require a span of over 10th? How many other pianists are unable to go beyond 10th? I think I would be right to say that 12th is from C to the second G. How crazy  is this span!

[monk]

DON'T try to expand your hand span!!!

You are in danger of injury!!!

There are many world-class pianists who can play all the difficult pieces who have relatively small hands.
You must "roll" the big intervals - play them consecutively with the help of arm movement, but so fast that no one notices. That's absolutely correct and usual practice.
Sometimes one can also put notes in the other hand (e.g. play notes of the left thumb with the right hand).

No Panic! And if you still don't believe me, look at all these little Korean women who play the sh*t out of the piano!

Best Wishes,
Monk

[kulahola]

DON'T try to expand your hand span!!!

You are in danger of injury!!!

There are many world-class pianists who can play all the difficult pieces who have relatively small hands.
You must "roll" the big intervals - play them consecutively with the help of arm movement, but so fast that no one notices. That's absolutely correct and usual practice.
Sometimes one can also put notes in the other hand (e.g. play notes of the left thumb with the right hand).

No Panic! And if you still don't believe me, look at all these little Korean women who play the sh*t out of the piano!

Best Wishes,
Monk

I would add the following:
1) if you try to play Rach 3 after 1 year practise, you  are either a genius or a mad person or a liar.

2) About Asian girls, it s true as Monk says but keep in ming that most of them cut the skin between fingers in order to extend their span. Moreover, there are some schools specialized in extending the span, such as the one related to Toho Gakuen in Tokyo (lots of exercises with metal balls between 2 fingers ...)

3) as monk says, correct practise is to break the chords or to cheat and not to play all the notes. Example: in this own compositions, Scriabin was cheating while performing (last movement or 3rd sonata - a nightmare for small hands)

Oh my god i start with bullet points..... Old wisdom bernie has contaminated me.... HELP !!!!

[xvimbi]

As monk said, be very careful with any exercise that is intended to increase your hand span. There are several threads on this forum that deal with this issue, but I'll repeat what I usually say to this topic.

The "true" handspan is determined at your wrist, i.e. where the fingers attach to the wrist bones. A very simple exercise is stretching the hand by closing it (making a fist) and opening it to its fullest. Hold it for a few seconds in this state. As with most stretching exercises, you'll feel strong tension initially that then slowly subsides and actually gives a pleasent sensation at the end. Don't overdo this, because you can dislocate joints and injure tendons. Remember, stretching is supposed to stretch muscles, not tendons. However, this exercise can be done throughout the day, and it does help a bit. If nothing else, it makes your wrist more supple.

The second aspect is the span between the fingers at the knuckles. Cutting the skin is one way to remove the limiting effect of that skin. A less drastic way is to massage the tissue between the knuckles. Over time, this will soften the tissue and increase the span.

The third alternative, which I prefer, is to let the span get larger on its own through normal playing and use the "cheating" techniques that will allow you to play large chords with small hands. Lots of people do that, and I have never heard of a pianist being slammed because s/he didn't have span like Rachmaninoff.

[Shagdac]

Try not worry about the hand span to much. I also have very small hands/fingers. However, Monk is absolutely right. Usually there is no problem either by "rolling" the notes involved so quickly that it really can't be detected, or playing the bottom/top not in one chord with the thumb of opposite hand. I don't think I've ever run across a score where that has been such a problem that I was not able to include that piece in my reperatoire! Just a mild inconvience! Sometimes, I actually think having smaller hands is an advantage as well.

Kulahona, I've never heard of anyone actually "cutting" the skin between the fingers to lengthen their span! Where do they do this? I know tons of Asian (female) players, and none of them have done this, or spoken of it. Having worked as a nurse for many years, I would think that one's hand would be too sore while healing to play, and after healing, it would be the same as it was in the beginning. To make enough of a difference, you would have to make a somewhat deep cut, to cut that deeply would require stitches. The stitches would rip if they became stretched while playing,....just don't see how this could work. I'd love for you to explain it though, as it sounds so peculiar, it's almost interesting. And now I'm wondering just how this can be done? Does not seem possible.

S

Bullet points LOL!

[kulahola]

Try not worry about the hand span to much. I also have very small hands/fingers. However, Monk is absolutely right. Usually there is no problem either by "rolling" the notes involved so quickly that it really can't be detected, or playing the bottom/top not in one chord with the thumb of opposite hand. I don't think I've ever run across a score where that has been such a problem that I was not able to include that piece in my reperatoire! Just a mild inconvience! Sometimes, I actually think having smaller hands is an advantage as well.

Kulahona, I've never heard of anyone actually "cutting" the skin between the fingers to lengthen their span! Where do they do this? I know tons of Asian (female) players, and none of them have done this, or spoken of it. Having worked as a nurse for many years, I would think that one's hand would be too sore while healing to play, and after healing, it would be the same as it was in the beginning. To make enough of a difference, you would have to make a somewhat deep cut, to cut that deeply would require stitches. The stitches would rip if they became stretched while playing,....just don't see how this could work. I'd love for you to explain it though, as it sounds so peculiar, it's almost interesting. And now I'm wondering just how this can be done? Does not seem possible.

S

Bullet points LOL!

Weird. I also know tons of Asian players who cut and my best friend is Ukrainian, excellent pianist, with the smallest possible hands, and she also cut the skin between fingers. She confesses that would never have been able to play on the level she is without cutting (she has really really unusually small hands).

[JK]

I'm sure I heard of jazz musicians (stride piano players who have to reach tenths in their LH) doing the skin cutting thing......! ouch!!! It doesn't matter how small your hands are really (except maybe in exceptional circumstances) what does matter is how you use the hands that you have. Askenazy has very small hands and can't reach a tenth, yet he has recorded pieces such as rach3 etc. Also Sriabin had very small hands, I heard he could only reach an octave, yet look at some of the intervals he uses, 12ths and even 13ths! I have small hands too and I have to say that it doesn't really affect me, I certainly wouldn't risk doing stretching exercises and I definately wouldn't consider cutting bits of my hands up!!

[LHSN]

Thank you for your advices. I am assuming that cutting the flesh between the fingers should be done by surgery. I can't be too sure whether to do something so drastic or not, but I am getting more disappointed because as if 12th is not enough someone in here mentioned 13th! Talk about genetical unfairness.
Maybe it is fine to increase the span simply by playing, but the problem is that my bones are going to stop to grow completely very soon and thus perhaps the best method would be the fastest one. Kulahola, could you tell me where can I get more info about that Japapnese method? As a  teacher, could you confirm that it works? The problem is that I have been placing erasers between my fingers for over a year and although at first I could only reach an octave, now I can do 10th (still a with some difficulty, as in Rubinstein's Staccato study, Op.23).  However, how can I possibly know whether the improvement came from the erasers or the regular practice which are considerable? I assumed that erasers did not help and gave them up about 2 months ago. I think I am correct because even after many months of exercises, it was still difficult and somewhat painful to place the eraser between my fingers.
Also, it is the first time I am hearing about cheating. It seems impossible to play a cord as an arpeggio without any notice.

[Shagdac]

LHSN,

Seriously, if you can play a 10th, you should not need to do anything more to alter your handspan. Rolling the notes, or slight altering of fingering in order to accomodate hand size is definately not cheating. You should not feel that it is. Second, you should not be using erasers or ANTHING that is painful. When you feel pain that is a signal telling you to STOP. You could end up seriously injuring yourself, and be worse of than when you started. Sounds like your handspan is fine. Just work on your technique when playing some of the harder reaches and see how you personally can accomodate them. It's different for everyone. You may be interested in Kula's "cutting info", but I certainly wouldn't recommend that. No piece is worth cutting into your own skin just for the sake of reaching a few centimeters more!!! Think about it! Sounds kind of Cuckoo, doesn't it?

Practice the different methods and see what works best. I'm sure with practice you will see good results. Best of luck!

S

[donjuan]

LHSN, you have been given some great advice.  just arpeggiate the big chords- It is perfectly acceptable.  Listen to Jeno Jando play the Hungarian Rhapsodies.  He breaks up the big chords into 2 smaller chords and plays them in quick succession.  It sounds great and doesnt change a thing in the interpretation.  

Stop trying to stretch your hands, and dont even think about cutting the skin between your fingers, or you will end up as crazy as Schumann himself!
donjuan

[DarkWind]

Try playing in the morning. Your muscles are generally larger after rest. Try this experiment if you haven't done it before. Go up to the nearest wall, and put your arms flat out in front of you, so that the finger tips touch the wall. Now, without moving from that area, move your arm so as if to scratch your back, with the elbow pointing towards the wall. With your opposite hand, rub the elbow a bit, then extend the hand again. Notice something? I learned about this one day, but didn't know why. Then a few years later a teacher told me it was about muscles extending, getting tense, etc. I wondered if I could apply that to music. It turns out that during the morning, the Rach 2 chords in the opening movement are much more easier to play than in the night. Specifically the left hand, as I can only reach an octave.

[donjuan]

Try playing in the morning. Your muscles are generally larger after rest. Try this experiment if you haven't done it before. Go up to the nearest wall, and put your arms flat out in front of you, so that the finger tips touch the wall. Now, without moving from that area, move your arm so as if to scratch your back, with the elbow pointing towards the wall. With your opposite hand, rub the elbow a bit, then extend the hand again. Notice something? I learned about this one day, but didn't know why. Then a few years later a teacher told me it was about muscles extending, getting tense, etc. I wondered if I could apply that to music. It turns out that during the morning, the Rach 2 chords in the opening movement are much more easier to play than in the night. Specifically the left hand, as I can only reach an octave.

The stretching thing didnt work for me, darkwind.  I didnt notice any difference.  I understnad why I am taller in the morning- because the joints havent had the weight of gravity against them all night.  I havent really noticed any difference in my handsize throughout the day, however..

[LHSN]

That morning thing was very interesting. Believe me, if in the morning my neighbors weren't seeing sweet dreams I would definitely bang at the keyboard as early as 6 am. To avoid being thrown out of the building I will only touch the keyboard with the greatest span possible to see if it works for me tomorrow morning.
I have been interested in hand span so much that I studied the anatomy of the hand. If you just look in an x-ray or an anatomy book, you will see that the bones of the fingers go all the way to the wrist. So essentially, all of us who have short span actually have a lot of finger length in reserve. The limitations are skin and cartillege. I have even talked to a doctor about the possibilities and he has confirmed that theoretically it is possible to span the fingers very far apart. The only problem is the practical way of actually achieving that. You talk to a surgeon and he'll just say that the tendons connecting two adjacent fingers have to be cut to increase the span. But a surgeon that does not play a piano can't have any idea whether that would be a good idea or not. I am sure that by now someone somewhere has discovered the best method to overcome this limitation. I also have read Chuan C. Chang's entire online book where he gives some good advice about span expansion. It still is not concentrated enough though.
If there is no hope at all, I guess I have to cope with arpeggio. I am sure that each of us still strives to be as close to the ideal as possible.  People like Liszt and Rachmaninoff were trully lucky to have such big hands. Sometimes I see people with really large hands who have never touched a piano in their lives and never will. Then I begin to think about the jokes that God likes to play with us.

[kulahola]

That morning thing was very interesting. Believe me, if in the morning my neighbors weren't seeing sweet dreams I would definitely bang at the keyboard as early as 6 am. To avoid being thrown out of the building I will only touch the keyboard with the greatest span possible to see if it works for me tomorrow morning.
I have been interested in hand span so much that I studied the anatomy of the hand. If you just look in an x-ray or an anatomy book, you will see that the bones of the fingers go all the way to the wrist. So essentially, all of us who have short span actually have a lot of finger length in reserve. The limitations are skin and cartillege. I have even talked to a doctor about the possibilities and he has confirmed that theoretically it is possible to span the fingers very far apart. The only problem is the practical way of actually achieving that. You talk to a surgeon and he'll just say that the tendons connecting two adjacent fingers have to be cut to increase the span. But a surgeon that does not play a piano can't have any idea whether that would be a good idea or not. I am sure that by now someone somewhere has discovered the best method to overcome this limitation. I also have read Chuan C. Chang's entire online book where he gives some good advice about span expansion. It still is not concentrated enough though.
If there is no hope at all, I guess I have to cope with arpeggio. I am sure that each of us still strives to be as close to the ideal as possible.  People like Liszt and Rachmaninoff were trully lucky to have such big hands. Sometimes I see people with really large hands who have never touched a piano in their lives and never will. Then I begin to think about the jokes that God likes to play with us.

I dont want to make you disappointed but in your age it s probably too late to make your hands fully flexible. I train my students span at each lesson but they are 7-8.

Japanese schools I was mentioning are for already trained professional students. Another thing about Asian spans is the bath. As you know Japan is a bath culture and Japanese pianists spend an awful amount of time in their bath. They do a lot of stretching exercises with their fingers along the bath, while they are relaxed.

But you should stop now your obsession, for you it s just too late and doesnt make sense. Everybody breaks. One piece I would prefer not to play than break is Rach 2 (just the beginning need playing withou breaking according to me - so well i just dont play this piece). And of course pieces like Scriabin the ninth study--- would be funnny to hear with breaking...

Imagine you would like to become in your age an Apsara ballet dancer. You know thse wonderful Khmer dancers who can bend their fingers backwards. They train that from babyhood and it s a long and painful process. Should you try now you would just risk injury and could never achieve the same flexibility. Too late.

[Hmoll]

If you've only been playing for a year, you are not at the point where you should worry about spanning a 12th.
Speed, span, sound, musicianship are all things that you grow into organically through hard work, but not by forcing.
If you can span a 10th, you will ba able to  play most everything, once you have the chops.
You have no business even thinking about Rach. 3 after just a year of playing. Certainly, you should not consider mutilating your hands to play a piace. No piece of music is worth it.