Inherited Piano - Getting it back in Tune

[hoffy73]

Hello all!

This is my first post here, so please be nice!  (& if there is an intro thread, can someone please point me to it!).

OK, lets get down to business.  I have finally gotten in my home the upright piano that my mother gave to me, which my grandparents bought nearly 70 years ago.  The piano is a two pedal Eddyola (if that means anything to anyone.  Apparently these are US made.  I would be interested if anyone can shed some light!!).  This is the piano that I learnt on (not that I am any good, but hey, I am actually thinking of picking it up again) and my two daughters will be learning on.

Now, undoubtable, it is in massive need of a tune as it was last done possibly 20+ years ago.  The key action is pretty good, with only one or two high keys on the treble side a little soft (all keys rebound to the same position).  But one thing is bothering me.  When I started playing it while my daughter was playing an electronic that we have, I noticed that it is a half key out!  I.E., C# corresponds to C on the electronic.  This brought back memories from my time with this piano, as I clearly remembered that it was indeed half a note out way back then (but back then, I knew no better.  I never accompanied anyone or anything, so it wasn't something that was a big deal).

So, my questions are:  Why would have this piano been tuned in this way?  Would this be a case of a dodgy piano tuner trying to pull the wool over the eyes?  Or is there a legit reason to tune a piano in such a way?  My biggest fear is that the piano may never go back in tune.  I am quite keen to get this one sounding right (more so for sentimental reasons), but want to know if I have a lame duck.

Any advice or comments are more then welcome

[Bob]

I haven't heard of that brand.  (Psst... You might want to get a new piano in case this current one turns into a money pit.)

The piano is out of tune.  The pegs inside unwind and the pitch lowers, so a C# key sounding something around a C natural makes sense.  

Twenty years without a tuning is a looooooong time.  The piano is probably nice and comfy with whatever position things have settled into -- And after you have it tuned, it will want to resettle back into its current position.  I'd be very confident in betting that it will take at least two tunings to get it to hold pitch.

Assuming it can hold a pitch.

? You said the piano hadn't been tuned in about 20 years...  They can out of tune within hours or a few days, probably in a few months something will be a little off.  Whoever tuned it didn't tune it a whole tone lower.  It's just settled out of tune.  Actually it could slowly be going more and more flat, although I would imagine it would be moving veeeery slowly after 20 years without a tuning.

Temperature and humidity changes will affect the tuning.  That changes the pull on the strings, the ability of the pegs to stay in place on the board they fit into, etc.  It's like weathering -- slowly over time, the environment is going to force it out of alignment.

Inexpensive keyboards are also not always perfectly on pitch.  I've got one that's a quarter flat.  It's a cheap keyboard though and does what I want it for -- ear training and portability.

If you're really serious about it, maybe have a piano technician take a look at it (except that costs money), and have that person look at it before spending money on tuning.  If it's not worth it, trash the piano (you might not be able to even give it away if it's not great) and invest in a new/slightly used piano.  Or have someone tune it (a couple times at first) and see how it goes.  If you have to keep tuning it though, that will add up over the amount of time the instrument is used, not to mention having to put up with a lesser instrument than some -- It affects your playing.  A lesser instrument will limit what the student can learn.  -- But if you get a decent new/used piano, then you'll probably spend less money tuning it and will have a better experience with the instrument in the long run.  


And if I had to bet.... You'll keep this piano.  You'll probably get it tuned, but it will take at least two tunings.  It might even sound worse after the first tuning -- Some keys will slip back faster than others.  It's a family heirloom.  It sounds like you just want your kids to have a taste of music like you did (not to be insulting).  The piano tuner probably isn't going to tell you if the instrument isn't that great.  (Although for some reason the people I've met who tune pianos don't seem to like tuning them at all.)  The piano teacher probably isn't going to complain too much about the instrument -- They'd probably say something similar to what I'm saying or what others here would say.  Maybe if your kids really make progress you could invest in a step-up instrument, a better upright or possibly even a grand.



Is this it out of curiosity?
https://www.users.on.net/~mec/langholm/eddyola.jpg
Are you in Australia?

[hoffy73]

Correct assumption.  I am in Australia.  From that grainy phone picture, it looks similar, except the one that I have does not have the pianola and a slightly rounded exterior.

No offence taken either.  I am, though, hopeful that my daughters take it further then I do, but at this stage its more about having fun and learning.  The problem is that the little yamaha that my youngest is using has no action.  Its just sprung keys and that’s it.  I don't want her to get used to something like that.  I suppose I need to look at what budget I am prepared to spend to get it up to speed.  If I spend $1k, compared to new basic electronic boards with weighted keys, I am on par.  Anything over and then I am sinking money into a black hole.  I have looked locally at traditional pianos.  New uprights start at $4k.  Second hand are a fraction, but then again, I at least know the history of the one that I have.

[quantum]

So, my questions are:  Why would have this piano been tuned in this way?  Would this be a case of a dodgy piano tuner trying to pull the wool over the eyes?  Or is there a legit reason to tune a piano in such a way?

Tuning the piano lower than A440 may be necessary if the strings are in such condition that a pitch raise would cause a majority of them to break.  In this case, you either have to live with a lower pitch or consider string replacement or other major repairs to the piano. 


Raising the pitch of a piano that is near one semitone flat is not a standard tuning.  Make sure your tuner knows about this before he/she comes to the house.  It takes more time and will likely cost more.  It will take a couple rough tunings to raise the pitch then a fine tuning to even things out.  The piano may need further tunings to keep it at pitch, as it has had 20 years to settle at the lower pitch. 

[Bob]

I ran across a piano that apparently was in decent shape.  Older, well-used, but still had life in it.  It hadn't been tuned in probably two years and it took two tunings before it would hold pitch.  It went a little whacky right away after the first tuning.

I think the tuner may have broken a string then too.  The post above jogged my memory. 

And then isn't it true (although I don't know how much it would affect this case) that a new string will sound a little different?

[quantum]

And then isn't it true (although I don't know how much it would affect this case) that a new string will sound a little different?

It is true.  I broke some strings in my old upright and had them replaced.  The newly replace strings sounded different, actually they had a fuller tone than the originals. 

[hoffy73]

Thanks for your advice guys.  It is indeed some food for thought.  As I implied above, I need to work out whether it is worth the immediate hassle.  I like the romance of a traditional piano, but am concerned about the ongoing maintenance

Cheers

[Bob]

Depends on the room too.  If you can keep the room ideal for temp and humidity that will slow down how fast it goes out of tune, except controlling the environment that much costs money too.  And a better instrument probably deserves a better environment. 

I think I'm always assuming the students will continue on and the most ideal music situation possible in a house.  Not quite realistic though.

[hoffy73]

Thanks Bob.

[john90]

If you must have the pitch raised, then tuning it yourself is a good alternative to throwing it out. I have done that, and really enjoyed the experience. I know I tuned the centre octave from the middle out, left it a couple of weeks, then did a few more notes either side. Perhaps go up 1/4 of a tone max first pass. Starting at one end is a bad idea. It needn't take long, rough tune, 40 minutes every couple of weeks. As you add in extra notes either end, the others can go lower. Ignore and  keep adding an octave a week max.

[silverwoodpianos]

You most likely have an instrument with loose tuning pins. If this instrument looks like the posted photo link of the cottage type upright, then I would hire a local technician of your choice to inspect the instrument and determine if the tuning pins are lose by way of an inch pound torque wrench.  Specifically, you want the friction resistance of the tuning pins in the pin block to be measured. The minimum is 60lbs resistance. If you don’t have that reading then get another instrument.

In most cases folks stopped tunings these instruments because they would not hold tune. That was one of the main problems with the cottage uprights; they were built cheaply and performed cheaply.

Around the Vancouver Canada area no-one services instruments of this type any longer; there are too many good used instrument to be had cheaply so why fight with something like this here? For your area there the situation might be different.

I could not encourage you to spend any monies on a piece like this one. If it can be tuned and hold a tuning, that is all I would do until such time as you have determined that the children have a desire to continue with lessons. Then look for something better.

Half a tone low is a lot of added weight for an old frame like this one.  To get this one up to A440 one has to add around 8000lbs of weight to the frame by way of increased load on the strings, sounding board, bridges and plate. Will it hold? The only way is to have this determined by an attending technician with the proper tools.....

Best of luck.