Netherlands woes

[thalbergmad]

But where's the proof that such cuts would be "for the greater good of the majority of people"?

Unless you have been recently elected to the Dutch Cabinet, I doubt if you could prove that it wouldn't.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

That's indeed an interesting piece; might you care to declare its authorship?

No.

He knows of you and you know of him. He is a man who loves music as much as anyone else I know.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Berst,

Alistair

Berst,

Thal

[ahinton]

Unless you have been recently elected to the Dutch Cabinet, I doubt if you could prove that it wouldn't.

As you must know, I haven't and nor have you, so I doubt that you could prove that it would.

Case closed.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

No.

He knows of you and you know of him. He is a man who loves music as much as anyone else I know.

Fair enough. A PM if you will - or not if you won't.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Berst,

A mere typo in my case, yet a mis-spelt blood vessel in yours, I suspect.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

As you must know, I haven't and nor have you, so I doubt that you could prove that it would.

It appears an impasse exists between us.

Let us hope it is case closed.

Thal

[ahinton]

It appears an impasse exists between us.

Let us hope it is case closed.

It really doesn't matter - at least not as far as I am concerned; all that I hope is that the case that really matters - i.e. the one about which the petition has been set up and has to date collected almost 19,500 signatures and comments - is far from closed and will remain open until the Netherlands government perceives the error of its ways and swiftly and quietly drops these ridiculous proposals which have already been publicly derided by people in many countries who all quite obviously harbour a profound respect and admiration for what they know of the Dutch way of doing this kind of thing.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The total might eventually equal 1% of the Dutch population, but i guess many people from many other Countries would wish to sign as well, so difficult to say.

Impressive majority anyway. Hope the voice of the people is heard by the authorities.

Thal

[ahinton]

The total might eventually equal 1% of the Dutch population, but i guess many people from many other Countries would wish to sign as well, so difficult to say.

Impressive majority anyway. Hope the voice of the people is heard by the authorities.

That is, at last, the first constructive and helpful remark that you have made on this subject; I agree with you wholeheartedly and appreciate what you write. Yes, of course it's difficult to predict the outcome as of right now, although it is clear that the continuing increase in petitioner numbers is not going away any time soon and that, as you rightly observe, a few of these are from outside the Netherlands - US, UK, Canada, France, Germany, Australia and elsewhere - even Belgium! The best that can be done at present is to sign the petition (as I have done) and to encourage others to consider doing so (as I have also done, with some degree of success); if everyone that you and I know who care about such things did this and 1 out of 10 of those that each of them seek to persuade go head and add their own signatures and comments, the tally will rise substantially, which can only be helpful to the cause - speaking of which, the non-Netherlands contributors which include composers George Benjamin, Colin Matthews and myself, the RCM librarian, Nick Kenyon (the previous Proms director) and a number of conductors including Lothar Zagrosek have now been added to as follows:

Uitgelicht
Sir Simon Rattle tegen afschaffing MCO

woensdag 13 oktober 2010, Niemand minder dan Sir Simon Rattle, chef-dirigent van de Berliner Philharmoniker, betuigde zijn steun aan het MCO. Vanmorgen stuurde hij via zijn iPhone het volgende bericht.

"The entire musical world must be as horrified and puzzled as I am to see such a massive destruction of orchestral and choral institutions in Holland. It is certainly unprecedented in my lifetime, and an incalculable loss to the artistic life of Europe. These institutions, which have been patiently built up over decades, take only a quick signature to destroy,and once lost they are impossible to restore. I would urge those responsible not to weaken Holland's enviable reputation as a cultural centre by this thoughtless and damaging attack."

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

even Belgium!

Why "even Belgium"?

Thal

[ahinton]

Why "even Belgium"?

That's merely a passing (and semi-frivolous) reference to the much-vaunted enmity between the Netherlands and Belgium; as a non-Dutch long-time resident of den Haag said to me quite a few years ago, just as the English have Irish jokes, the Germans have Polish jokes and the Swedes have Norwegian jokes, so do the Dutch have Belgian jokes - except that the French do as well!

Anyway, the petition is now past the 19,500 mark and well on its way to 20,000. I note that Sir Simon Rattle has joined that other Berlin-based conductor Lothar Zagrosek in weighing in on this one.

It will, of course, be no bad thing if, in the interim, those six organisations in the firing line do a little judicious navel-gazing in order to ascertain whether they might be able to find room for more genuine efficiencies within their operations but, even if they do so and they identify and rectify any, the principle that they must remain in place still stands and it is unlikely to make much difference in terms of the total number of euros being spent on them.

Again, however, all that the Netherlands government has sought to persuade people is that the total cost to the Dutch taxpayer of these six organisations is 200+ million euros; since nothing appears to have been done to ascertain how much revenue is generated by them, the figure is misleading - and, likewise, if all those people that work for them and some of those who work for organisations that supply them are put out of work, the government will take less tax revenue from them and pay out more in state benefits to them.

It's rather like claiming that there were x immigrants coming into Britain in 2009; even if accurate, the true position is established only when one sets the number of emigrants during the same year against that figure.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Hope the voice of the people is heard by the authorities.

Thal

Well, the elections have been and the new government is due to be installed today. So, with the hindsight of how these things have always gone....

Of course in the case of a financial deficit the government should try and balance things, if need be by making cuts. It always puzzles me, not just with the govs, that those in power never ever consider making cuts from their own considerable fat. If a hospital almost goes broke due to the wages of their "counsil of managers" or whatever, said counsil remains untouched, cuts are made among the nurses and such. Recently here construction on a new road has commenced after 40 years (no typo!) of making and adjusting plans. Guess the loss of money... When the banking (and pension) system threatend to collapse, nothing was changed in running things, but merely taxpayers money was used to plug the holes.

What is so problematical in the proposed scrapping of the MCO is the combined value of it. To compare, we have several provincial symphony orchestras. I would like to retain all, but I also know that the repertoire they offer is overlapping quite a bit, quite a bit of it being the Iron Repertoire. So if their have to be orchestras scrapped, I’d prefer scrapping there rather than in something as valuable as the MCO. The Hague Philharmonic and the Rotterdam Philharmonic are both very good orchestras, but one could discuss the need of two big symphony orchestras in town that practically touch each other. One could discuss merging them, and from the whole make one symphony and one chamber orchestra, for example. If asked: would I scrap the Utrecht, Limburg and North Holland Symphony Orchestras to save the MCO I’d say “yes”, not because I’d like to loose them, but because the MCO is way more valuable that the three orchestras mentioned (not that I like the idea of kicking people on the cobbles).
I have some sort of suspicion that scrapping the MCO is not the plan the govs want, but rather something else, and by way of proposing the MCO let the sector propose other victims instead so that they then can say “well, if the sector itself want to scrap [fill in here], we will act according to their wishes”. Would you call that sleazy politics? Ah, welcome to that wonderful world!
Some things in the way orchestras and such are run must change, its present system being too inflexible and uninventive, and too dependent on governmental support. But both the government and the people who run the orchestras should realise that the present situation is not the fault of the orchestras or the public, but of the government and managers who put it in working. If these people created the problems, they should solve them in such a way that the orchestras and public aren’t the ones suffering. If a doctor gives the wrong treatment, don’t let the doctor go on as he does and kill the patient, but correct or replace the doctor and save the patient.

I’ll ad here an article by Bart van Meijl, business manger of De Nieuwe Philharmonie Utrecht, in De Volkskrant 09-10-2010. De Nieuwe Philharmonie (The New Philharmonic) is a small (20-60 players) new orchestra that was set up and exists outside of the “establishment”, and might function as a example of how things might be changed in the establishment. For those who can read Dutch: https://wp.philharmonieutrecht.nl/

Here’s the article (my translation):


Artsector is subsidy addicted

The new cabinet has announced it intends to introduce substantial financial cuts in the arts sector. The almost impossible to get cooperative but always enthusiastically campaigning artsector is rampant. But is all this really a surprise for the arts business, or is it high time for a drastic adjustment in the present system?
The reaction of the sector is as usual: coffins on the podia, orchestras before the Second Chamber (the Dutch “House of commons” G), et cetera. Remarkable to see that other sectors that face cuts react by cutting their own fat too and react with presenting strategic, to-the- future-looking solutions (such as in health care). Sadly the arts sector rather bogs down in self pity and tries, by virtue of expensive names such as Hans Wijers of Akso Nobel, to save their lives. But if Wijers finds it all so important, surely a sponsoring by Akso Nobel is a better solution than a mere signature under a petition?
Of course the arts sector cannot exist totally without subsidy; parts of it are simply unable to sponsoring or cooperation with the private sector. The outdated Collective Labour Agreement (this is a Dutch system of setting up a set of rights and obligations between employers and employees within a sector or [large] company. G) leads to a situation where orchestras can hardly be flexible or cost efficient. Financial cuts could lead to clear-cut’s that would not have been necessary if the ministry and arts sector had made adjustments in an earlier stage.
The ministry should stimulate the orchestral system, which now operates as a closed on itself, subsidised institution in which long year agreements are made, more with giving out commissions and less by multiple-year subsidy agreements. Exactly the, by the ministry chosen and by the orchestras accepted, system of financing leads to subsidy addiction, in which spaces for new developments need to be minimally utilised.
When the social support level finds itself under pressure, cuts are unavoidable. Both the ministry and the leaders and directors of the orchestras have consciously accepted that an almost infinite subsidy relation is necessary to keep the sector alive, and have taken an unnecessary risk with that.
In the end it are the musicians who are the victim of those financial cuts. Those musicians are day in day out busy putting on artistic achievements on top levels and hardy interfere with developments in politics. So, where the directors of the orchestras and the ministry could have seen these cuts coming, they will appear as thunder in a clear sky for the musicians.
I really do hope that the advocacies together with the ministry this time round can come to a change in the system by which the musicians will be hurt the least and in which some self-searching will be done too.

Yes, things need to change, but not by slash and burn one of the most valuable assets my country has to offer in classical music!

All best,
gep

[thalbergmad]

the Dutch have Belgian jokes

Really, I would love to hear one.

Thal

[gep]

the Dutch have Belgian jokes

And vice versa!

Why does a Belgian have empty glasses on the table? For those who don't want to drink anything.

Why do the Dutch bury their dead arse-up? So they can use them as free bicyclestands later.

Why does a Belgian take a measure tape to bed? To seen how long he sleeps.

How did the Dutch invent copper wire? Well, two Dutchman one day saw a dime lying on the street. They both grabbed at it at the same time. None would let go. Hence, copper wire was invented.

This may give you an idea...

gep

[thalbergmad]

Anyway, the petition is now past the 19,500 mark and well on its way to 20,000.

Number 19586 has now thrown his considerable weight behind the cause.

Thal

[ahinton]

Number 19586 has now thrown his considerable weight behind the cause.

Good for you! - and many thanks. It's perhaps a pity that you felt impelled to admit on it that you've "changed your mind" but, as Sorabji once said in another context altogether, "the great thing about changing one's mind is having a mind to change in the first place", so at least those of us who have read your earlier comments on the subject can - and I'm quite sure all will - be very pleased that you have done so in such a worthy cause.

Let us therefore hope that the considerable weight that you say you have thrown behind the cause will be the final thorn in the now new Netherlands government's aide that persuades them to abandon this proposal; if it is, who knows? - perhaps you'll eventually be duly honoured by the award of the freedom of the city of Utrecht!

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Number 19586 has now thrown his considerable weight behind the cause.

Thal

Well, the harder it is to get a fish on board, the bigger said fish is!
Well done, and many thanks! I for one would welcome a series of concerts/CDs featuring "Unknown piano concerto gems from the Thalbergmad vaults"!

I see in passing that one Robert Johnson finds my country "a society that promotes pornography and sex with children of 13 years". I guess he's American...

Thanks again!
gep 

[thalbergmad]

It's perhaps a pity that you felt impelled to admit on it that you've "changed your mind"

Well, that is really what happened.

Thal

[birba]

And vice versa!

Why does a Belgian have empty glasses on the table? For those who don't want to drink anything.

Why do the Dutch bury their dead arse-up? So they can use them as free bicyclestands later.

Why does a Belgian take a measure tape to bed? To seen how long he sleeps.

Also known as dumb blonde jokes in usa.

[ahinton]

I see in passing that one Robert Johnson finds my country "a society that promotes pornography and sex with children of 13 years". I guess he's American...

...or a pornographer/pædophile; still, he did sign the petition. Elliott Carter has been an American for longer than most people are ever likely to be, but I am sure that he has never regarded the Netherlands in this way...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Well, that is really what happened.

Indeed - and fair enough and all credit to you!

Best,

Alistair

[oxy60]

I think we can relax about those cuts that were proposed. I've never heard of the Dutch Government cutting anything except the welfare payment to a recalcitrant junk who wouldn't apply for a job after rehab. (And that was a freeze not a real cut. No COLA..)

Early on someone said they pulled the English header from the petition. That was a good sign. The petition can then be used to prove "return on investment." Translation = the grant/subsidy is worth the money if it affects X number of people.

They will look elsewhere not for cuts but for funding. 1% added to the BTW would do it.

[ahinton]

Early on someone said they pulled the English header from the petition. That was a good sign. The petition can then be used to prove "return on investment." Translation = the grant/subsidy is worth the money if it affects X number of people.

Why was it "a good sign"? It didn't stop people from various places, including England, from contributing to the petition...

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

An enquete done and published in the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant this morning says that 71% of the people is against the current plans to cut sunsidy to the arts sector. Considering the usual ways of governments with the "will of the people", I'm getting more worried...

Something else: Thal, I spent some pleasurable time yesterday listening to Mozart Camargo Guarnieri's 3rd Piano Concerto, do you know that piece? Or any other of his 6 piano concerto's? I should add here that Guarnieri in an open letter warned against the "great danger of modern musical theories". He lived 1907-1993, btw.

How about Geirr Tveitt's Concerti, such as survive?

all best,
gep

[ahinton]

An enquete done and published in the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant this morning says that 71% of the people is against the current plans to cut sunsidy to the arts sector. Considering the usual ways of governments with the "will of the people", I'm getting more worried...

Something else: Thal, I spent some pleasurable time yesterday listening to Mozart Camargo Guarnieri's 3rd Piano Concerto, do you know that piece? Or any other of his 6 piano concerto's? I should add here that Guarnieri in an open letter warned against the "great danger of modern musical theories". He lived 1907-1993, btw.

How about Geirr Tveitt's Concerti, such as survive?

all best,
gep

Somehow I sense this turning into a neglected Dutch piano concerto thread in which all performances of such revived works must be given without any cuts...

Best,

Alistair

[oxy60]

Why was it "a good sign"? It didn't stop people from various places, including England, from contributing to the petition...

Best,

Alistair

In the world of subsidies and grants it's Dutch for the Dutch. Support for the cause from outside is of course welcome and gratefully appreciated. When counting noses for ROI the granting agency wants to see Dutch noses.

[ahinton]

In the world of subsidies and grants it's Dutch for the Dutch. Support for the cause from outside is of course welcome and gratefully appreciated. When counting noses for ROI the granting agency wants to see Dutch noses.

Well, I can easily imagine that this is the case, but the fact that listeners and musicians from outside the Netherlands are contributing should also be of interest and concern to the Netherlands government, because it has a duty of care to maintain the international reputation of that nation's cultural life, not only on artistic grounds but also because it makes good economic sense. In the case of Holland Festival in particular, many people come from all over the world to spend money in the Netherlands when it is on - not only on tickets for events but on hotels, transportation, restaurants and other things - all of which is good for the Netherlands economy. Netherlands Radio can only sell to foreign stations material that it has itself recorded for broadcast. The Muziekbibliotheek is a large-scale facility that is not only used by the Dutch.

So - the petition seems to have pitched itself just right on this front; most of the contributors are either Dutch people living in the Netherlands, Dutch people living outside the Netherlands and non-Dutch people living in the Netherlands, but the fact that there continue to be contributions from non-Dutch people living outside the Netherlands confirms that the proposed cuts are of concern internationally as well as within the Netherlands itself. I would accept that it would not be practical to have additional petition headers in French, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Portuguese, etc. as this would be unwarrantably cumbersome but, in our internet age where so much is presented in English, it seems to me a pity that the English language header was dropped early on, particularly as English is also the most widely understood foreign language in the Netherlands itself.

Hopefully, the 20,000 figure will be reached and exceeded today.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

In the world of subsidies and grants it's Dutch for the Dutch. Support for the cause from outside is of course welcome and gratefully appreciated. When counting noses for ROI the granting agency wants to see Dutch noses.

It would be a bit strange if we asked, say, Belorussian subsidies for a Dutch thing, not?
I wonder how they, if your statement were true, would check if noses were Dutch; would there be half-Dutch noses? And indeed the number of New Zealanders traveling to Amsterdam to hear the RSO is negligable, but the number buying their CDs is not, I think!

I just read we are the world's No. 1 payers in green taxes (5,5% BGP, or €27,000,000,000 a year), perhaps we could chafe a bit from that for the MCO? Or do you really think all that money is used for the environment?

gep

[thalbergmad]

Something else: Thal, I spent some pleasurable time yesterday listening to Mozart Camargo Guarnieri's 3rd Piano Concerto, do you know that piece? Or any other of his 6 piano concerto's? I should add here that Guarnieri in an open letter warned against the "great danger of modern musical theories". He lived 1907-1993, btw.

I have heard of those composers, but do not recall hearing anything.

My experience of composers born in 20th Century is rather limited and those that I have experienced are mostly British.

Thal

 

[birba]

there's actually someone who's first name is Mozart?!

[oxy60]

It would be a bit strange if we asked, say, Belorussian subsidies for a Dutch thing, not?
I wonder how they, if your statement were true, would check if noses were Dutch; would there be half-Dutch noses? And indeed the number of New Zealanders traveling to Amsterdam to hear the RSO is negligable, but the number buying their CDs is not, I think!

I just read we are the world's No. 1 payers in green taxes (5,5% BGP, or €27,000,000,000 a year), perhaps we could chafe a bit from that for the MCO? Or do you really think all that money is used for the environment?

gep

I was pondering the concept of half-Dutch?

The Dutch never seem to tire of paying taxes. I can't remember there being an anti-tax rally nor the TOTAL tax taken ever being lowered.

[ahinton]

I was pondering the concept of half-Dutch?

Well, if there's such a thing as double-Dutch...

20,337 now and still rising...

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

I was pondering the concept of half-Dutch?

As in having one Dutch and one non-Dutch parent? Hmm, I don't think that would matter one bit!

The Dutch never seem to tire of paying taxes.

No, we just love paying it! In fact, most people would want to pay more!
But seriously, no most do not like it but, hey, as long as it is used for the greater good!
(hmm, which of those sentences is the most cynic...)

I can't remember there being an anti-tax rally

That's because the first one was initiated in 1920 but the organising committee has yet to complete filling out all aplication forms, run all procedures, get all permissions and whatnot. Rally is now due in 2060, Brussels willing.

nor the TOTAL tax taken ever being lowered.

Neither do pigs fly, for the same reason...

One Dutch new-minted minister now has promised to try and save the MCO. He's Minister of Defence, so he might get listened at!

all best,
gep

[gep]

Well past 35,000 people have signed by now, and it seems that everybody has been "misunderstanding" the new governmenst intentions (i.e. "we want to scrap the MCO" is not to be understood to mean "we want to scrap the MCO").

all best,
gep

[ahinton]

Well past 35,000 people have signed by now, and it seems that everybody has been "misunderstanding" the new governmenst intentions (i.e. "we want to scrap the MCO" is not to be understood to mean "we want to scrap the MCO").

Well, of course it doesn't! Surely anyone knew that right from the start! When a government says it's going to do something, it usually means it's going to do something else. Black is always white except when it's green. It's abit like UK's HM Treasury claiming (as it has done in writing) that a certain UK regulatory organisation is "independent of government" (by which it presumably means that it is not funded by the taxpayer) but then claiming (in the same document) that said organisation is "asnwerable to Parliament"; what price "independence"?

Anyway, the petition tally is now 36,229 and among those who have spoken out against the proposals are Pollini, Abbado, Accardo, Rattle, Haitink, Zagrosek, Eötvös...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

36,230

[ahinton]

37,437.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Concert announcement:

WORLD PREMIER - December 19th 2010

Elias Parish-Alvars - Piano Concerto in G Minor Op.90

Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Mariss Jansons

Pianist - Mr T Mad

Tickets: £25 - £90

Beards available at door.

Thal

[ahinton]

Concert announcement:

WORLD PREMIER - December 19th 2010

Elias Parish-Alvars - Piano Concerto in G Minor Op.90

Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Mariss Jansons

Pianist - Mr T Mad

Tickets: £25 - £90

Beards available at door.

You'd better hope that Mæstro Janssons is not a member here or knows anyone who is! As to the availability of beards, have you never actually heard of "grow your own" and would you not consider this a more appropriate way for those wishing to acquire them to do so, especially in the current economically strained times?

Anyway, hastily returning to topic, I see that Anne-Sophie Mutter is one of the recent petitioners who at the time of writing are approaching 38,000 in number.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You'd better hope that Mæstro Janssons is not a member here or knows anyone who is!

Why?

Tickets too cheap??

Thal

[ahinton]

Why?

Tickets too cheap??

Obviously that is not the answer; I simply do not think that Mæstro Janssons could necessarily be guaranteed to appreciate your sense of humour in associating his name with this non-event, available beards or no available beards.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

OK, I remove the beards.

Thal