According to one of my former teachers, the theory behind "lifting the fingers" is that part of being able to play fast and clear is the ability to quickly release a key after playing it, in addition to the natural flow of the wrist and arm. Anyone can slam their fingers down fast, but being able to release the key quickly is just as important. Eventually the act of releasing the key cleanly and crisply becomes part of playing. This kind of precision is very important when studying Bach and Mozart.
In the Russian school, a flexible wrist is essential, namely to achieve a good tone. Even in Bach and Mozart. How can we play a portamento, for example, without a flexible wrist? How to "under pass" de 1º finger when playing scales without a lift <> 45º of the 1º finger? How to play legato - a good and real legato - with a overarticulation of the fingers? Elbow-Arm- wrist-fingers, all they are essencial in piano playing, I do think.
Everyone in this thread has given only one side of the story though. The most common problem in scales is too much movement at the wrist. Horrible bending into weird positions is the norm for most students- because they haven't learned to keep the wrist well aligned as a mere join in the long chain that exists from fingertip to shoulder. The teacher is absolutely right that students should primarily be striving for good alignment, most of the time. The issue is how they achieve that. A well aligned wrist and flexibility are not mutually exclusive. A student who cannot keep the wrist aligned without locking it will always have problems. Far too much talk is made about what goes on at the wrist itself- but flapping it around everywhere will simply put strain on it and demand various tensions to compensate for the sheer instability. Sustainable freedom only occurs once you have the capability of keeping a simple and consistent alignment throughout scales, with only the most miniscule and subtle changes of alignment- but without any tensions to try to lock that alignment into being. It needs to be the product of good alignment in the whole arm, with well connected fingers- not the product of a locked wrist. This gives far more options than throwing your wrist around all over the place- which can ultimately leads to the worst tensions of all, once you're trying to get around a Chopin Etude.
You are right, but how does one get there? It's not so easy to go from flappy wrists to quiet but flexible wrists... It took a long time for me and I did experience tension and locked wrists while trying to stop the involuntary movements. Needed to strengthen the arms and thumb first, which didn't happen overnight and the thumb is still a work in progress. If my teacher wasn't so unyielding on this issue I'd certainly have given up trying...
You are right, but how does one get there? It's not so easy to go from flappy wrists to quiet but flexible wrists...
You need to practice having a quiet, flexible wrist! In reality this is much harder to do than it sounds.
It definitely is...and I think for us old folks it takes even more time and practice...especially if the wrists have been neglected and misused on the computer for over a decade...
It doesn't matter how low the wrist is, it still needs flexibility and to come up and down, however subtle the movement is.
Yes true but wait till you get old to say you are old outin !!
Besides you also learned these things some time ago, when you were a bit younger, right?
I do get a kick out of the posts where the person wonders if they are too old to take up piano and we find out that they are in their teens or early 20s though. I think one poster was 14 and all concerned that maybe they missed their window !!!!!
Pfft, wrist has to be supple; not taut. Look at any concert pianist. Some have a flatter position such as Argerich and Horowitz, and some have a higher position, such Ashkenazy and Barenboim. None of them however, have taut wrists. The position you describe sounds a lot like what I've read in harpsichord technique books. You can't transfer arm weight properly through a taut wrist AND being taut will cause damage to the wrist, or elbow, shoulder, neck or all of them! I don't want to come across as racist or like I'm stereotyping here but the Asian countries are not exactly renowned for producing world class pianists. (Lang Lang is just a big commercial, over-marketed pop star). Look to the Russians in my opinion! If the student and/or parent refuses to do what you require get rid of them. I don't stand for students arguing with me. Parents can often be the big problem. One student constantly plays like sotto voce. I keep telling him to play louder, just normal even (piano actually means plane NOT soft) so he tells me his mum tells him to play soft at home and that loud practice is unnecessary. I had words with her...
Tense wrists are bad, taut wrists (that exist due to a proper creation of length) are extremely positive and indeed outright essential to advanced pianism.
You're using the wrong word and thus ending up tarring one of the most important positives of all as a negative.Tension in the wrist is bad- however it's frequently FAILING to get the wrist taut that causes a locked up wrist. Tense wrists are bad, taut wrists (that exist due to a proper creation of length) are extremely positive and indeed outright essential to advanced pianism.
I do agree taught is a dangerous word to use. But I think what Nyiregyhazi is referring to is the terrible confusion that so many pianists suffer from regarding the proper use of the wrist. Many seem to misinterpret the necessary freedom and elasticity of the wrist which the virtuoso does possess, and confuse it instead with an improper playing position in which the wrists are held extremely high, rendering them completely stiff and inflexible.
I'm quite sure 'taut' and 'tense' are synonymous. Despite the interpretation of the word, I think it's a dangerous word to use. It seems that you are using 'stable' and 'taut' interchangeably: Your use of 'stable', I agree, with, but 'stable' and 'taut' are two different things. Certainly, I agree tense wrists are detrimental and while there are rare and brief occasions that call for a taut wrist arise, it is a matter of extent. The wrist needs to adapt to the changing demands of a passage; it can't do this if it is taut. 'Supple' is word Arrau used a lot. 'Stable', absolutely, 'secure', even better. Advocating that "taut wrists are extremely positive and outright essential to advanced pianism" is a bit presumptuous and short-sighted...
As a very experienced practitioner of yoga, not mention a possessor of a modicum of common sense, I know 'lengthening' to be a muscular contraction and hence, can only be brought about by tightening (tautness) of muscles. i.e. 'creation of length' is creation of tension. Now, if you are referring to the creative experience of lengthening - that's an equally important but very different matter.
Nobody claimed that not a single muscle shortens in pianism, so forget the strawman.
Well, I think you got me there! How can an argument against something mythical actually hold up? Take the unicorn for instance - to really argue against its existence you've got to formulate an idea of one. That idea must always be of straw as the original or authentic doesn't exist. Hence the boy who constantly has to cry "Straw!".
No muscle contraction about the wrist is needed in order to make a wrist taut and thus automatically balanced (if alternative muscle contractions create length from elsewhere in the chain of the whole arm). A taut line does not require localised muscle contraction in the wrist. It requires creation of length from elsewhere in the chain of the whole arm. If you insist that only muscle contractions in the wrist can cause that, you also have to argue in favour of the living dead, in order to explain how a corpse's wrist can be suspended in the very same way.
It's muscle that brings about 'tautness', end of story.
Resort to smoke and mirrors, if you will, but this objective fact will not go away. It's the rational explanation as to why "awesome " was able to develop his technique so much further when he stopped flailing with a wrist that was slack and instead learned to support it as a taut suspended midpoint within a lengthened arm (ie in a stable position that occurs without fixing the wrist into stability via localised tensions).
Whether everything he says is "scientifically justified" or not is not important.
One of my teacher's last articles before she died was entitled 'Pianist's wrist - The second breathing organ'
And how would you know that? This is pure conjecture. Where is the science?
Too little is still known about how we generate power. "Contraction" as a point of focus doesn't seem like the right solution, especially if the contraction happens in the wrong places. We need a spiral movement to generate power, and (too much) contraction (in the wrong places) hampers that. People interested may want to read something about the Alexander Technique and tennis. Here are some excellent articles that prove that N. is quite right in what he states. Whether everything he says is "scientifically justified" or not is not important.https://www.tenniswithouttension.com/articles.html (down the page. Especially "Using the Alexander Technique to generate power" is quite revealing)@ N.:You may want to think of something else to examplify your case. I have a very serious argument against your example of a corpse: "Pianist Zombie knows only two songs, and they're both groaners." (c)
Sounds beautiful in wording, but I see a deeper meaning here: we should leave it alone. Just imagine what problems we would have if we could deliberately control the muscles that make our "first breathing organ" work!