What primary chords, I IV, V or I IV V7?

[reinvent]

Hi there,
I'm just wondering which primary chords do most of you teach? I IV V -or I IV V7?  If you teach the last set, how do you explain them easiest in theory for a little one?
  Or if you teach the first set, when do you teach them about the V7?

[Daevren]

I would not use V7 before having explained seventh chords. Because it would make no logical sense otherwise.

But I have no experience with teaching children.

[kulahola]

Hi there,
I'm just wondering which primary chords do most of you teach? I IV V -or I IV V7?  If you teach the last set, how do you explain them easiest in theory for a little one?
  Or if you teach the first set, when do you teach them about the V7?

I speak about tonic, dominant and dominant seventh in the very first years.  

[bernhard]

I teach only triads to start with.

I begin with major, then minor, then diminished then augmented. Once these are all well learned (in all keys), I teach inversions (a really big step).

Finally the sevenths: seventh, minor seventh, major seventh, and diminished seventh.

Scale learning goes in parallel, and the way I go about it is through free improvisation (Have a simple chord progression in the left hand, e.g. I – V or I – IV – V, or I – IV – ii – V and do a free tune on the right hand using only the scale notes)

I do not worry too much about theory with the little ones, apart from recognising and naming the chords. Instead I work from the “practical” side of it. Later on the theory can be used to give it all a logical framework. Just like you would learn a language. I call it the “pragmatical” approach. I have described this approach in detail here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1083060519
(See reply #27)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1084072922;start=9
(See replies #7 & #9)

The important principle is that I do not move on to the next step until the previous one has been completely ingrained. So I will only move to minor triads after the major triads have been completely mastered. This means that it may take a bit more time in the beginning, but late progress tends to be amazingly fast. Also, many times the student figures out the theory by him/herself, simply from the patterns in his/her practice (which by the way is the historical method – It took a while and a lot of exposure to music before people could organise the practice of music into a logical theory – the first to organise the material in the familiar form we know today as “harmony” was Rameau in 1726. Lack of a coherent theory did not stop anyone to produce beautiful music).

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[rlefebvr]

free improvisation (Have a simple chord progression in the left hand, e.g. I – V or I – IV – V, or I – IV – ii – V and do a free tune on the right hand using only the scale notes)

Best wishes,
Bernhard

Explain more. I know it should be self explanatory, but I want to make sure I understand this properly.

[kulahola]

Explain more. I know it should be self explanatory, but I want to make sure I understand this properly.

oh nooooo.... bernie will go again with never ending explanations that noone understands anyway...

[bernhard]

Explain more. I know it should be self explanatory, but I want to make sure I understand this properly.

Have a look at these two threads where I explain it in more detail. If you still have questions ask again!

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1087022500
(see replies #22 and #24)

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1088266799;start=8
(replies #3 & #7)

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[reinvent]

Thanks, Bernhard,
Let's see if I am understanding what you're saying..
Are you doing something like this?
Left hand: CEG  Right hand: C
Left hand: dfa    Right hand  f

In other words, playing the triads with the left hand, and playing a melody using one of the notes in the triad with the right hand?

[kulahola]

Thanks, Bernhard,
Let's see if I am understanding what you're saying..
Are you doing something like this?
Left hand: CEG  Right hand: C
Left hand: dfa    Right hand  f

In other words, playing the triads with the left hand, and playing a melody using one of the notes in the triad with the right hand?

yes  yes  it s ok no need to ask the annoying bernardo again please. i cant stand him !!

[JK]

So you can't stand someone who constantly gives friendly and useful information and advice and who obviously has an incredible amount of knowledge and shares it in a very nice way, and who actually takes the time to explain himself fully if asked?!!

I'm sorry I really don't understand you.........

Maybe people would take a little more notice of you if you weren't so unkind about people when there is absolutely no reason.

[kulahola]

So you can't stand someone who constantly gives friendly and useful information and advice and who obviously has an incredible amount of knowledge and shares it in a very nice way, and who actually takes the time to explain himself fully if asked?!!

I'm sorry I really don't understand you.........

Maybe people would take a little more notice of you if you weren't so unkind about people when there is absolutely no reason.

No reason ? This person has actually diffamated me during my holiday abroad, telling everybody (with the same kind of bulleted and detailed and documented style) that I was JS Bach ! I could not even defend myself since i was on holiday! This person has still not apologized yet !

And anyway I dont think there is any kind of added value in what he is saying, Basically he only does copy pastes of his old threads, he seems to know them by heart. And the funny thing is that he cant even play himself !

[JK]

And the funny thing is that he cant even play himself !

Why's that funny? that doesn't mean that he can't give good and useful advice, it also doesn't mean that his understanding of music is any less, and it doesn't change the fact that he knows a hell of a lot about music and has helped a lot of people on this forum. oh and the copy and paste thing is really just common sense, why type it out again if it's already on another thread? And the thing about him knowing all of his threads by heart, this is probably true as I discovered in another thread that he has an incredible memory.

[kulahola]

Why's that funny? that doesn't mean that he can't give good and useful advice, it also doesn't mean that his understanding of music is any less, and it doesn't change the fact that he knows a hell of a lot about music and has helped a lot of people on this forum. oh and the copy and paste thing is really just common sense, why type it out again if it's already on another thread? And the thing about him knowing all of his threads by heart, this is probably true as I discovered in another thread that he has an incredible memory.

that just means that he is a forum nerd. And doesnt excuse the diffamation. I am still waiting for his public apologies.

[JK]

that just means that he is a forum nerd

And what's wrong with that? Not that I would call anyone here that anyway. As for his apology, this is not really for me to say but I would perhaps suggest that he may have said that slightly toungue in cheek.

[kulahola]

And what's wrong with that? Not that I would call anyone here that anyway. As for his apology, this is not really for me to say but I would perhaps suggest that he may have said that slightly toungue in cheek.

So far I can see only one forum nerd on this forum: Bernie. He behaves as a Supreme Wisdom, it s very difficult to stand that ! I truly think he destroys the whole atmosphere of this forum which could be really nice without a besser-wisser like him.

[m1469]

Okay, I simply can't stand this anymore!  Kulahola, I suppose I can understand a fraction of how you feel, however, have you ever taken into consideration that you are consistently rude to others and have never once apologized for that?  Why should you not be just as responsible for your actions as anybody else?

You write in on this forum quite often, so I don't know where you get off calling anyone a forum nerd!  Besides this, most of what you write in is simply in efforts to pick a fight.

In defense of Bernhard, how do you know whether or not he can play?  You really have no idea!  If you are assuming this under other people's ridicul and assumptions, then why not read more into it all and see for yourself that there is no possible way that Bernhard knows as much as he does without having put in hours upon hours of practice, question, research and deep thought!  

If you have such a true feeling for music and the art, you would respect and be grateful for what Bernhard has accomplished and is generously willing to offer people!

m1469

(sorry, off subject, I won't do it again)

[JK]

So far I can see only one forum nerd on this forum: Bernie. He behaves as a Supreme Wisdom, it s very difficult to stand that ! I truly think he destroys the whole atmosphere of this forum which could be really nice without a besser-wisser like him

Since I discovered this forum I have seen Bernhard give a lot of very useful advice and suggestions to a lot of people, all of which have benefited and have been very grateful. If he weren't a member of this forum (and can I say that the idea that someone shouldn't be here just because they have a lot of knowledge and give out a lot of information is rediculous) a lot of people wouldn't have had the benefit of his knowledge. I'm sorry if this makes you uncomfortable or annoyed or even irritated, but to be quite frank (and I apologise for being so) that is your problem.

[kulahola]

Since I discovered this forum I have seen Bernhard give a lot of very useful advice and suggestions to a lot of people, all of which have benefited and have been very grateful. If he weren't a member of this forum (and can I say that the idea that someone shouldn't be here just because they have a lot of knowledge and give out a lot of information is rediculous) a lot of people wouldn't have had the benefit of his knowledge. I'm sorry if this makes you uncomfortable or annoyed or even irritated, but to be quite frank (and I apologise for being so) that is your problem.

It s appalling to see how you all seem to be completely under the influence of  that guru. Dont you realize that he is just an annoying besser wisser who keeps repeating on and on the same bulleted stereotypes ? Cant you try to think by and for yourself for once ?

And it s interesting to see how you all support this funest person in his diffamation towards me.

Sorry Malabox, my time is precious and if I want to learn something about piano playing, I rather read Neuhaus than old Bernie. at least somebody who can play.

[JK]

It s appalling to see how you all seem to be completely under the influence of  that guru. Dont you realize that he is just an annoying besser wisser who keeps repeating on and on the same bulleted stereotypes ? Cant you try to think by and for yourself for once ?

And it s interesting to see how you all support this funest person in his diffamation towards me.

Sorry Malabox, my time is precious and if I want to learn something about piano playing, I rather read Neuhaus than old Bernie. at least somebody who can play.

I for one can very much think for myself and am not influenced easilly. If someone gives advice on a topic then I read it and take it into account whilst knowing that it is not the only side to the topic in question. Please do not try and put down someone who gives great advice by saying they are a forum nerd or that their advice is not as valid as others because they don't play (something which I would appreciate proof of). This is unkind, unfair and unjust. This is the last I wish to post on this subject. (by the way I can't help but notice a hypercritical air in you're posts, you object greatly to being accused of being J.S Bach and yet seem to deem it perfectly acceptable to heap insults on someone else).

[kulahola]

I for one can very much think for myself and am not influenced easilly. If someone gives advice on a topic then I read it and take it into account whilst knowing that it is not the only side to the topic in question. Please do not try and put down someone who gives great advice by saying they are a forum nerd or that their advice is not as valid as others because they don't play (something which I would appreciate proof of). This is unkind, unfair and unjust. This is the last I wish to post on this subject. (by the way I can't help but notice a hypercritical air in you're posts, you object greatly to being accused of being J.S Bach and yet seem to deem it perfectly acceptable to heap insults on someone else).

I can take objections or criticisms, no problem. I am very open minded. But to be diffamated about being someone else is a very serious case and I am still waiting for proper apologies.

[bernhard]

Thanks, Bernhard,
Let's see if I am understanding what you're saying..
Are you doing something like this?
Left hand: CEG  Right hand: C
Left hand: dfa    Right hand  f

In other words, playing the triads with the left hand, and playing a melody using one of the notes in the triad with the right hand?

Yes.

You can actually play anything you want on the right hand as long as you restrict yourself solely to the notes of the scale you are using.

The progression I-IV-V-I will always fit any melodic extemporisation. This has several advantages:

1.      It teaches the student the three most important chords (I-IV-V) for all scales.

2.      It trains the student move smoothly between the three chords.

3.      It teaches hand independence, since while the left hand is moving in a steady, unchangeable way, the right hand is weaving a melody around the chords, with rhythmic freedom.

4.      It teaches the student the notes of the scale, since s/he is only allowed to use those notes.

5.      It gives the student a taste of free improvisation.

6.      It gives the student the opportunity to experiment and get to know the several degrees of the scale (for instance you can limit the right hand melodic notes to be only the mediant, the submediant and the leading note).

7.      It is a SUPER-FUN way to get acquainted with chords and scales.

8.      After a 10 – 15 minutes instruction the student is actually “playing”, and some of the tunes they come up with can be quite impressive – specially after they overcome an initial shyness and realise that they cannot go wrong, since as long as they keep to the notes of the scale, it will always sound good.

9.      It teaches the importance of the tonic – since if it starts to sound wrong, all you have to do is return to the tonic. You can use it to experiment with different melodic patterns: smooth ones where the intervals are small, or jumpy ones where the intervals are large.

10.      There is something very “meditative” and satisfying about this sort of extemporisation

This if course is just the start. You can complicate it in many ways: You can use more complex chord progressions (I often use this exercise using the same chord progressions of the piece the student is learning). You can use different rhythm patterns on the left hand. You can modulate.

Consider this: If you do this on C major, and use the C-F-G chords in the left hand and restrict the melodic notes to CFG on the right hand (tonic – subdominant-dominant) you will get a certain effect. If you now change the left hand to Ab major (Ab-Db-Eb triads) but keep the right hand on CFG, (they are the mediant, submediant and leading note of Ab major), you can demonstrate in a dramatic way the ideas of scale degrees – and why they are important – as well as the idea of tonal centre and modulation as a way to shift the tonal centre.

As you can see, there is really no limit to this approach, which of course is not new. It is the beginning of improvisation as practised by most pianists in the 19th century.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[kulahola]

Yes.

You can actually play anything you want on the right hand as long as you restrict yourself solely to the notes of the scale you are using.

The progression I-IV-V-I will always fit any melodic extemporisation. This has several advantages:

1.      It teaches the student the three most important chords (I-IV-V) for all scales.

2.      It trains the student move smoothly between the three chords.

3.      It teaches hand independence, since while the left hand is moving in a steady, unchangeable way, the right hand is weaving a melody around the chords, with rhythmic freedom.

4.      It teaches the student the notes of the scale, since s/he is only allowed to use those notes.

5.      It gives the student a taste of free improvisation.

6.      It gives the student the opportunity to experiment and get to know the several degrees of the scale (for instance you can limit the right hand melodic notes to be only the mediant, the submediant and the leading note).

7.      It is a SUPER-FUN way to get acquainted with chords and scales.

8.      After a 10 – 15 minutes instruction the student is actually “playing”, and some of the tunes they come up with can be quite impressive – specially after they overcome an initial shyness and realise that they cannot go wrong, since as long as they keep to the notes of the scale, it will always sound good.

9.      It teaches the importance of the tonic – since if it starts to sound wrong, all you have to do is return to the tonic. You can use it to experiment with different melodic patterns: smooth ones where the intervals are small, or jumpy ones where the intervals are large.

10.      There is something very “meditative” and satisfying about this sort of extemporisation

This if course is just the start. You can complicate it in many ways: You can use more complex chord progressions (I often use this exercise using the same chord progressions of the piece the student is learning). You can use different rhythm patterns on the left hand. You can modulate.

Consider this: If you do this on C major, and use the C-F-G chords in the left hand and restrict the melodic notes to CFG on the right hand (tonic – subdominant-dominant) you will get a certain effect. If you now change the left hand to Ab major (Ab-Db-Eb triads) but keep the right hand on CFG, (they are the mediant, submediant and leading note of Ab major), you can demonstrate in a dramatic way the ideas of scale degrees – and why they are important – as well as the idea of tonal centre and modulation as a way to shift the tonal centre.

As you can see, there is really no limit to this approach, which of course is not new. It is the beginning of improvisation as practised by most pianists in the 19th century.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

so boring to read you .... and only old ideas that we all know already....

[Hmoll]

I've got to stop reading this. I'm about to hyperventilate with giggles.

So, let me get this straight: poster A accuses poster B of not having any knowledge of piano, being neither a piano student or a piano teacher, and posting from a mental institution, and what poster B objects to is being called JS Bach.


OK, continue.

[Daevren]

I think kulahola is quite the paradoxal puzzle.

[kulahola]

I've got to stop reading this. I'm about to hyperventilate with giggles.

So, let me get this straight: poster A accuses poster B of not having any knowledge of piano, being neither a piano student or a piano teacher, and posting from a mental institution, and what poster B objects to is being called JS Bach.


OK, continue.

Dear Liszt sonata,
Maybe you did not follow all the developments. Some  member used JS Bach as a pseudo while I was on holiday. I didnt read the whole threads but apparently the besser wisser Bernie got on his nerves, which is fully understandable. Bernerd wrote a long argumented post where he explained that I was JS Bach!!!

I couldnt believe to be diffamated that way when I came back from my holiday.

About my piano knowledge, I dont have to prove the whole forum with this kind of posts:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

that I know this, and that, and also that.

[Daevren]

Isn't being JS Bach a good thing?

And you say Bernard doesn't post anything useful because he said you are (like?) JS Bach?

You make no sense.

[kulahola]

Isn't being JS Bach a good thing?

And you say Bernard doesn't post anything useful because he said you are (like?) JS Bach?

You make no sense.

OK, I re-explained again. JS Bach was just a stupid pseudo chosen by a member who unfortunately left us because of Bernerd. Anyhow, Bernerd diffamated me telling the whole world that I was that person.
And that was only one example of his useless posts.Since he considered he reached his limits, as he confesses in another post, he should leave the forum for the good sake of everybody else.

[Shagdac]

I'm thinking then Bernhard you would also have them change and do the opposite...playing the chords with the right hand, and the melody notes with the left...just for variations? Also, at what point when you are teaching the improvisations (using chords), do you beging to have them play (not sure how to explain this), the outside notes of the chords and the middle note like a filler? Also, do you spend much time having them create/play with doing different rhythms with chords, like for example Cmaj. instead of simply playing C-E-G all together, doing C, then G, then E, them G  or something similiar repeated throughout? Can exercises like this be helpful also in teaching chords or not as much? I always found it very interesting how much one could change the way a piece sounded, just by the way you varieted on the the order and/or rhythms of the chords or notes IN the chords of the left hand.

Thank you,
S

[bernhard]

I'm thinking then Bernhard you would also have them change and do the opposite...playing the chords with the right hand, and the melody notes with the left...just for variations? Also, at what point when you are teaching the improvisations (using chords), do you beging to have them play (not sure how to explain this), the outside notes of the chords and the middle note like a filler? Also, do you spend much time having them create/play with doing different rhythms with chords, like for example Cmaj. instead of simply playing C-E-G all together, doing C, then G, then E, them G  or something similiar repeated throughout? Can exercises like this be helpful also in teaching chords or not as much? I always found it very interesting how much one could change the way a piece sounded, just by the way you varieted on the the order and/or rhythms of the chords or notes IN the chords of the left hand.

Thank you,
S

Yes, the sky is the limit . You can:

1.      Swap hands
2.      Use different chord progressions
3.      Use different rhythms (including dance rhythms) on the LH (if that is the hand doing the accompaniment)
4.      Using different patterns (broken chords, arpeggios, Alberti patterns, Nocturne figurations, whatever is the figuration that is prevalent in the piece you are working at the moment, etc.)
5.      You can miss notes from the chords, or as they advance add notes (sevenths and ninths)
6.      Eventually you can start adding chromatic notes (notes that do not belong to the scale) if you want to turn the focus from scale/chord learning to improvisation/composition.

However there is one principle (or rule) I always follow in these exercises. And this is the principle of limitation. The student is not allowed to do anything s/he wants. S/he is circumscribed by very limiting boundaries. And the more a beginner s/he is the more limits I will impose.

So a total beginner will not even be allowed to do a chord progression. We will start with (say) the C major scale. He is allowed to play any note of the C major scale with the RH (the white keys), in any order and in any rhythm s/he wants. But the left hand can only play a steady, repeated and even bass C as an ostinato accompaniment. From this we will proceed to playing a broken octave on the LH (C – C), and from there we might do a broken chord (either C-G-C or C-G). This frees the student to put his/her full attention on the RH (which has great freedom) and at the same time in a subliminal way gets the LH used to the interval of a fifth, and to play steadily and undisturbed no matter what the RH is doing. Form there we move to a very simple chord progression: tonic – dominant (C-G followed by G-D). You get the idea. As the student becomes better and better, the boundaries are relaxed and new challenges are provided. Eventually (and hopefully) the student will have at his fingers a whole repertory of possibilities that can be produced instantly – without him having to think about what to do next. I expect students to spend at least 5 minutes a day on this sort of work. However this is usually so enjoyable that sometimes this is all they want to do! (I suspect that Ted does a lot of that – with much more sophistication of course).

Finally the other way to work on chords is to ask the student to harmonise a piece. If you start with Nursery rhymes and folk songs, most can be harmonised with I-IV-V. As the student becomes fluent and used to this simple chords, you can then start other chords and again expanding the boundaries. Eventually you will be developping the skill to do arrangements.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[rlefebvr]

So the right hand can play any note right, not just from the Chord.

Ex: C-F-G chord.

Left C, right c d e f g a b (in any combination)

Left F, right c d e f g a b(flat)  (in any combination)

Left G, right c d e f g a b (in any combination)

[bernhard]

So the right hand can play any note right, not just from the Chord.

Ex: C-F-G chord.

Left C, right c d e f g a b (in any combination)

Left F, right c d e f g a b(flat)  (in any combination)

Left G, right c d e f g a b (in any combination)

Almost.

You see, you must use only the notes of C major on the right hand. So, when you play the F chord in the left hand, you are still using the C major scale notes, and therefore no Bb, but still B natural. Likewise as you play the G chord in the LH, you should not sharp the F, but still play F natural. Why?

Because if you flat the B when you play the F chord, the F chord stops being a subdominant chord and becomes a tonic chord. You will have effectively modulated the tune to F major and shifted the tonal centre. (By the way there is nothing wrong with that – except that it breaks the limitation I imposed to only improvise within a definite scale). Likewise, using a F# in conjunction with the G chord would have the same effect: the G chord instead of being a dominant chord would become a tonic chord and the tonal centre would shift to G major.

Does that make sense?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[rlefebvr]

All clear.

I knew I was getting it wrong.

This really helps,


It's amazing how many teachers forget to teach music. I have almost 8 years of music in me between school band (Trombone and flute), classical guitar and piano and no one ever explained MUSIC to me. I was under the impression it was a gift from God for a select few. It can be learned. Go figure. Between my new teacher and this forum, I have learned more about music in 6 months than I have in all my previous years of instrument playing.

[reinvent]

Thanks Bernhard for your thoughtful posts.
  Great ideas!  Good way to get away from the method book and work strictly on piano playing for awhile!