How to practice octaves?

[musicioso]

Hallo,

What is the best way to learn play octaves fast and accurately? Does anyone know some good exercices?

Is that a good idea to play chromatic octaves, up and down, for some 30 minutes, or as long as i can? How should i work on the speed? Play as fast as i can? And how to avoid injuries?

Hope you guys can help me a little bit!

[musicioso]

PS: I am not that good at sight reading.

Good octave skills i need for my improvisations.

[Bob]

Every combination you can think. 

down up LH, dn up RH
up down LH, up dn RH
up dn LH, dn up RH
dn up LH, up dn RH


I found it similar to scales.  Speed up octaves the same way you speed up scales.

You can stretch to a 9th or 10th to make the octaves easier too.

[ramseytheii]

Phrasing.

Walter Ramsey

[keyboardclass]

...but you must 'catch' them with the wrist.

[musicioso]

Thank you everyone!




@keyboardclass

What do you mean exactly by cantch them with the wrist? And is that healthy to do that for 30 minutes or longer? How long should i do that to get as good as possible?

[keyboardclass]

To practice start with your hand hanging from your wrist - it should form a 90 degree angle.  Drop the weight of your arm into the keys still with the 90 degree angle.  As the octave sounds relax your wrist (it'll continue down till forearm and back of hand are in a line).  Hang your hand from the wrist and do the next one.  The 'catch' is at the exact moment the note sounds, at which point you release.  It's kind of a Blake thing - 'He who binds to himself...'.

[birba]

I think Ramseytheii hit it on the head.  When you're thinking of where the octaves are going and their final "resting place", they play almost by themselves.  (This, of course, is for advanced pianists who can already play octaves.)  Don't EVER overplay and ALWAYS relax after the passage has been played.  But don't think of the each individual octave.  think of where they're going and the final stop.

[slow_concert_pianist]

I think Ramseytheii hit it on the head.  When you're thinking of where the octaves are going and their final "resting place", they play almost by themselves.  (This, of course, is for advanced pianists who can already play octaves.)  Don't EVER overplay and ALWAYS relax after the passage has been played.  But don't think of the each individual octave.  think of where they're going and the final stop.

My goodness what wonderful advice "advanced pianist" Birba .The only problem is your advice doesn't work. You must simply play as fast as you are able. Your body will scream at you if it's too fast. If you are truly advanced you will listen to your body. If not, you will try to cheat. But cheaters never win....hmmmm except in politics

Technique for playing rapid octaves is all in the wrists and and experiment with 1-4/1-5/1-4 or 5-1/4-1/5-1 sequences to simulate legato touch. Finger strength will come over time particularly in conjunction with Hanon or Czerny technical exercises. You also need to be able to snap down for Balakirev and passages such as the bridge at the start of Beethoven's Appassionata 3rd movement. This needs LOCKED wrists (i.e.measured forearm exertion) and the octaves need to be "punched" out.

[birba]

Words of Wisdom.

[viking]

Play using the muscles of your triceps and back rather than your biceps and pecs.  Also stay as close to the key as possible, release all tension of the thumb.  And PHRASE INDEED.

[nearenough]

Use the 4th and 5th fingers on the black and white keys respectively. Try to relax and wave your hand rather than keeping the wrist stiff and rigid.

I never understood explanations that say play from the back, from the shoulders, arm, wrist or fingers. I would guess you use them all, but use them in a sense of loose rather than stiff.

Also make a video-tape of your playing and look at it and maybe compare it with other players, easily found on You Tube or other sites. A decent camera can be found at $200 and large memory sticks at $30 or so, which offer a teaching device you can easily and profitably operate.

[gyzzzmo]

Chopin opus 25/10, great exercise.

[tsveti]

I think Ramseytheii hit it on the head.  When you're thinking of where the octaves are going and their final "resting place", they play almost by themselves.  (This, of course, is for advanced pianists who can already play octaves.)  Don't EVER overplay and ALWAYS relax after the passage has been played.  But don't think of the each individual octave.  think of where they're going and the final stop.

Exactly true I agree completely... The only thing you'll achieve by overplaying octaves will be tendinitis (I hope this is the right word)

[musicioso]

Thank you everyone for your help. I really appreciate it.


Soon i will make a video of me practicing octaves, and you guys can see my progression and maybe give me some more advice.

[timothy42b]

There's a section in Leschetitzky on octaves with some preparatory work you might find helpful.  I did.

No, I didn't spell it right, I can never remember that one.  But it's close.  There's a free download.  His treatment of crossing the thumb is more detailed and useful than any other text I've seen. 

[musicioso]

@timothy42b

Thank you. I will try to get it.

[carbe]

I've never really practiced octaves, I've just played songs with octaves in it. After one song with much octaves, I'm sure you'll have it in your fingers. It's like everything else; if you do it much, you'll learn it quickly. Good luck!

[byeats]

I think it is a bad idea to play fast octaves with 4th finger on black notes and 5th on white notes. I was taught that way but it failed the experimental test. I had been frustrated with speed and accuracy of the numerous fast 2-hands octave passages in the (quite difficult) Liszt Dante Sonata. When I changed to using ONLY the fifth finger (for both white and black notes), my speed and accuracy improved noticeably.

It is relevant for you to know that I'm male, as males, unlike females, usually have their 4th finger LONGER than their 2nd finger (with finger #1 = thumb). So female pianists have shorter 4th fingers and may be more apt to use only the 5th finger in all cases, to enable a bigger span.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think it is a bad idea to play fast octaves with 4th finger on black notes and 5th on white notes. I was taught that way but it failed the experimental test. I had been frustrated with speed and accuracy of the numerous fast 2-hands octave passages in the (quite difficult) Liszt Dante Sonata. When I changed to using ONLY the fifth finger (for both white and black notes), my speed and accuracy improved noticeably.

It is relevant for you to know that I'm male, as males, unlike females, usually have their 4th finger LONGER than their 2nd finger (with finger #1 = thumb). So female pianists have shorter 4th fingers and may be more apt to use only the 5th finger in all cases, to enable a bigger span.

I've found totally the reverse. It's faster still if I use 345 for a black then two white keys. It's much faster, because the arm can just glide across with fewer quick in and out motions. It's much less dependent on big movements. While I'm nowhere near this level:

I have serious doubts as to whether it could it be done with only 5s. I wouldn't feel bound by the 4th finger for black keys as a "rule" (eg. there's no sense in only using 4s at the end of the black key etude) but I certainly wouldn't throw it out casually either.

[byeats]

My remarks about preferring only 5th, not 4th, finger for fast octaves was intended for the situation where you are rapidly ascending or descending the keyboard. If you are only playing a few nearby octaves it is certainly faster to use fingers 4 & 5 (& sometimes 3) for the octaves.

[nyiregyhazi]

My remarks about preferring only 5th, not 4th, finger for fast octaves was intended for the situation where you are rapidly ascending or descending the keyboard. If you are only playing a few nearby octaves it is certainly faster to use fingers 4 & 5 (& sometimes 3) for the octaves.

For any ascent? For the upper notes I use the same legato fingering from op. 10 no. 2 for chromatic octave runs. It's all about how it aids legato for me. Even if strict physical legato does not always occur, the fingering that would make legato possible involves far less big shifts. While I had always assumed otherwise, I find that the closer to legato the fingering is, the quicker I can move. It eliminates much of the up/down of the whole arm.