Using a fist on the piano

[rgh55]

Has anyone every heard of using your first on black keys for a stronger forte? A former student of mine has been doing this with his new teacher.

What are your thoughts?  thanks.

[stevebob]

It's overkill; the loudest possible fortissimo is already achieved using the fingers alone.

As employing the fist doesn't actually make the sound louder, it has no purpose unless (1) it's for dramatic effect in a performance, or (2) the composer specified it by indicating col pugno.

[richard black]

You can certainly play louder with the fist - in fact you can quite easily break the piano, as I found out when still a kid. But why would you want to? Beyond a certain level, the sound of a piano starts to become a bit ugly, which is occasionally appropriate but generally in the realm of 'special effects'. Grainger used this from time to time, but then he was adamant that ugly sounds are also a valid part of music, once in a while.

[stevebob]

There's a physical limit to how loud any given piano can be played, and I still maintain that such maximum loudness is achieved in a conventional way by most people:  through the fingers.  If one's fingers are "weak" (i.e., unable to transmit the body's energy effectively to the keys), then that's likely the only reason using the fist could possibly be louder.  Otherwise, extra force doesn't supply additional loudness; it can't, because the maximum has already been reached.

You might indeed break the piano with the fist, but that doesn't mean the volume of sound is greater—unless one includes the extramusical sounds of stuff being destroyed. 

[richard black]

I was a little unfair to Grainger in my earlier post - there's another, unrelated, reason why he occasionally indicates the use of the fist. Sometimes it is a very useful way of getting an awkward chord in black notes in a hurry. An example is in 'Country Gardens', where he suggests the use of the right fist, suitably curled (not tightly), to play B flat and E flat in the bass, directly after a chord fairly high in the treble. Getting fingers to it would be risky, but a well-aimed fist has no trouble at all. Classic Graingerian lateral thinking.

[stevebob]

I had thought it was Prokofiev who was best known for using the direction.  I wasn't even aware that Grainger had as well (though I might have guessed it ).

[quantum]

I use fists, elbows, forearms, knuckles, and knuckle joints frequently in my improvisations.  Knees and heels when called for as well.  I wouldn't suggest these techniques for the majority of mainstream Western Art Music however.  To me such devices produce tone qualities not possible with the fingers.  Ugly sounds are fascinating to me, thus I've taken some time to explore using other body parts and objects to play the piano.  Yes, there is a risk you'll break something - I've broken many things on my piano, but that's a risk I'm willing to take.  I wouldn't go to such extremes on instruments I do not own.  

I had thought it was Prokofiev who was best known for using the direction.  I wasn't even aware that Grainger had as well (though I might have guessed it ).

At times he can be quite frank with his descriptions such as ffff "get loud lots".  

[drorperl]

I guess its a little bit safer than to go into a boxing ring and decide to use only one finger...

I say whatever works..

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[orangesodaking]

What do you guys think about using the fist in the bottom b-flat (B flat 0) of Ravel's Alborada del Gracioso in that one spot near the beginning?

Also, I use my fist in around 1:27 of this video (P.S. I didn't post this in the Audition Room yet? Off to the Audition Room!) 

[nearenough]

Imitation Tourette's?

Name of piece? Wasn't Ravel. Alkan -- I doubt it. Maybe Joplin

I enjoyed it. Maybe they should be on Conan ("Conanduo") -- just cut the piece in half.

[nearenough]

I forgot to mention that Henry Cowell used fists and arms.

[birba]

In the third movement of the Emperor, the side of the fist on the E-flat is very effective and helps a lot!

[orangesodaking]

Imitation Tourette's?

Name of piece? Wasn't Ravel. Alkan -- I doubt it. Maybe Joplin

I enjoyed it. Maybe they should be on Conan ("Conanduo") -- just cut the piece in half.

The title is in the video itself.

[ponken]

Personally, I am not for using the fists in any piece. I think playing with the fingers is enough to achieve anything.

[gyzzzmo]

Fisting your piano is something Xenakis would come up with.
For any other -serious- compositions, musically you wouldnt really accomplish anything with it (with a little wink at Alistair).

By the way, if you need your fists to emphasize a certain volume, i'd rather rethink the build-up instead.

Gyzzzmo

[prongated]

It's overkill; the loudest possible fortissimo is already achieved using the fingers alone.

It depends on what you mean by "using the fingers alone" I guess...but on the surface of it, not true.

Try playing a black bass note with your finger at a given velocity, and play it again with a hammer (yep, hammer) at the same velocity. The sound is different because there is a lot more weight from the hammer than there is the finger alone. As such, try playing those bass notes as loud as possible with your finger, and try again with your fist - there is a difference.

Granted, I do think that using the fist to play the piano to generate a big sound is overkill for the standard repertory. But of course, pianists who have big sound do not use fingers alone - through proper technique and physical alignment, they have much of their body behind those fingers, giving weight in the same physical way a hammer would.

[stevebob]

I wonder if anyone here has actually performed such a “hammer test.”

I remain unconvinced, and only an unbiased scientific experiment conducted with appropriate measuring instruments would persuade me that any additional volume is achievable through unconventional means.

I’ll continue to believe that maximum volume is already via the usual apparatus alone (i.e., torso-arms-hands-fingers).  And maximum, by definition, cannot be exceeded (though I accept that people may imagine that the fist, hammer, etc. makes it louder).

[quantum]

I wonder if anyone here has actually performed such a “hammer test.”

I attended a masterclass with a visiting Caribbean pianist.  At one point he demonstrated the martellato sound he wanted by using fists in a Liszt piece. 

[orangesodaking]

I wonder if anyone here has actually performed such a “hammer test.”

I remain unconvinced, and only an unbiased scientific experiment conducted with appropriate measuring instruments would persuade me that any additional volume is achievable through unconventional means.

I’ll continue to believe that maximum volume is already via the usual apparatus alone (i.e., torso-arms-hands-fingers).  And maximum, by definition, cannot be exceeded (though I accept that people may imagine that the fist, hammer, etc. makes it louder).

Would you agree that it does increase the "harshness"? (I'm not sure if the decibel measurement would be different or not... But I think it would produce a harsher tone.)

[stevebob]

Would you agree that it does increase the "harshness"? (I'm not sure if the decibel measurement would be different or not... But I think it would produce a harsher tone.)

I'm not sure!  I don't even know how harshness figures into the physical properties of sound or how it is quantified.  Louder does seem to equate to harsher (on pianos, in any event), but I wonder if the harshness component isn't also maxed out in a conventional fortissimo.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

(3.52)

Surely definitive 

[birba]

I hope you're saying that it's NO.  That orage has to be the most vulgar and unmusical playing I have ever heard in my life.  And I saw there's even a fan club for this guy?!
I had to listen to Lazar Berman and Aldo Ciccolini to get it out of my head.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I hope you're saying that it's NO.  That orage has to be the most vulgar and unmusical playing I have ever heard in my life. 

I wouldn't say those videos amount to a recommendation for using the fist. 

And I saw there's even a fan club for this guy?!

There is???

The Orage is quite funny though.

[jbmorel78]

Has anyone every heard of using your first on black keys for a stronger forte? A former student of mine has been doing this with his new teacher.

What are your thoughts?  thanks.

Most of the time (99.999999%) unnecessary, but if it is inspired in the moment of performance, do it!

[prongated]

I wonder if anyone here has actually performed such a “hammer test.”

Me obviously After a friend (and later a prominent teacher) demonstrates that to me. Just get a hammer and try what I suggest for yourself on a decent grand piano - it's not hard at all.

I remain unconvinced, and only an unbiased scientific experiment conducted with appropriate measuring instruments would persuade me that any additional volume is achievable through unconventional means.

What, with a decibel meter or some wave form? You do realise that when it comes to perception, we're not just talking about volume, but the kind of sound, which cannot be picked up by those measure instruments? But I guess if you believe more in measuring instruments than what human perception can pick up, there's nothing I can say...

I’ll continue to believe that maximum volume is already via the usual apparatus alone (i.e., torso-arms-hands-fingers).

Yes, I absolutely purport that this is the apparatus you need to get the most sound out of the piano. So I guess you will agree that the weight (and perhaps also the kind of weight) you put on the keys will determine the sound you get out of the piano? Hence partly the purpose of my suggesting such experiment with a hammer, constrasting the sound with using just the finger, and finger alone.

I'm not sure!  I don't even know how harshness figures into the physical properties of sound or how it is quantified.  Louder does seem to equate to harsher (on pianos, in any event), but I wonder if the harshness component isn't also maxed out in a conventional fortissimo.

Yeah, I do think it gets rather subjective here. Generally when most people I know say the sound is harsh, it's when the volume is loud and the articulation too aggressive (as a result of putting so much weight without releasing it when depressing the keys very quickly). The sound usually doesn't ring or sustain very well, but instead you get a very substantial initial hit when the hammers strike the strings.

[retrouvailles]

Fisting your piano is something Xenakis would come up with.

WRONG

Xenakis has never specified in his piano works that he wants any of his chords played with fists, or even forearms or anything other than fingers. As a matter of fact, I don't think I have ever even seen any clusters (in the Henry Cowell sense) written in his piano music. Now, please, don't say such stupid, underhandedly pejorative statements without having a solid basis. That said, there are still a lot of composers that have wanted pianists to specifically use their fists to strike the keys. A famous example: Villa-Lobos.

Getting back to the topic, I have seen pianists use fists in repertoire that hasn't specified it. For example, I saw Jean-Yves Thibaudet use a fist to hit some black keys in a piece (whose identity escapes me, but it was a work that was tonal and had no clusters), and the tone quality was noticeably different from other performers who had used purely their fingers. I really don't see any problem with that, for there isn't some unwritten rule somewhere that says that the only thing you are allowed to play the piano with is your fingers (or hands, by extension). I once attended a recital where the pianist played an etude by David Rakowski, and there is one part where the pianist is required to play a melody between their hands with their nose! Yes, the piece was tonal. All that being said, feel free to use what you want to play the piano. No person is going to jump out from the shadows and say "HEATHEN!!" if you use your fists to strike some black keys.