Realistic to get good?

[rayneval]

Hi,

Sorry for second post but this one is a little different.

I'm wondering how realistic it is for me to get to an advanced level?

Basically, I started piano at around 4, and got my level one a couple of years after that, and learnt various level 2 pieces. Stopped for quite a few years, and then later ~14 taught myself fur elise in a couple of months, and moonlight sonata of just right hand (using right-left combined never attempted left). I also learnt right hand of the start of fantasie impromptu.
Earlier this year i picked it up again (almost 18), and taught myself the first half of clair de lune, which i can play quite well. also, i am able to play very quickly so the fast parts i can do pretty well with minimal mistakes if i do it a few times - thanks to extremely fast typing skills But struggle with hands together quite a bit, i learnt "comptine d'un autre été l'après midi around this time too in about 2 weeks to get close to perfect, im sure this is a really easy piece here but it was an achievement for me. and it took a couple of hours for the first half page of noctourne in g minor with both with my teacher's aid when i had her.

I struggle to read music, (as i made a thread about), but want so badly to be able to play pieces including those i posted, and one of my favourite pieces of all time 'ballade no1 in gminor'

So, given this, how realistic is it for me to learn this piece?
How much each day would i have to practice to get to a level to be able to play this?
How should i learn to play these pieces, should i jump into them like i was trying to do or start of gradually, what should i learn?
on my list is noctourne in g minor (the entire thing), finishing clair de lune, then attempting this ballade.
will it really take many years of practice to achieve this level?
or how long would it take for me to learn this piece? (time/day for x years/months)

im a very quick learner, and i had a piano teacher earlier this year to help me start off but said i was better off self-teaching since the speed i was learning clair de lune at. i play with a lot of feeling, so it makes me sad that i cannot express this in other pieces rather then these same old.

thank you so much if you can help me, i'd do anything to be a great pianist, but i fear it is too late for me.

please be honest - its better to realise truth now then to find out later it was never possible.

R

[fleetfingers]

I have to say that I think it's strange for a teacher to advise a student to self-teach. It sounds like you have a lot of strengths, but that you also have some weaknesses that a good teacher could help you with. See if you can find a teacher who is excited about having a quick learner and will be able to help you reach your goals.

[wiggityp]

I agree that, a teacher who does not leap on a student who is clearly passionate and (at least in her estimation) talented, probably has some underlying motive. Maybe she is tired of teaching? Either way, the g min. nocturne is not terribly difficult from a strictly technical perspective; the real challenge (as with many of the nocturnes) is just listening to the music and not overdoing one's interpretation. Which can be very easy to do with the nocturnes.

The g min. Ballade, however, is an entirely different story. Aside from being long and containing many different segments, with a corresponding multitude of techniques, it is also a very forthright bit of music that requires a strong will to fully master. One must see the ballade, the events in the story, which after all is what a ballade is, must unfold organically from within a specific pianist, who is the storyteller. I think the ballade is a prime example of a long term project piece. Indeed for me it is rather the quintessential romantic piano piece, and certainly one to have in your repertoire. I think that based on what I understand of your abilities (which is of course very limited, having never heard a note you've played) I'd say that to make the jump from pieces like Clair de Lune and Chopin's nocturnes to his ballades is a big jump, bigger than it probably seems at first. The sheer length of the ballade will also have to be met with considerable physical and artistic stamina; there is a world of difference between playing and learning 3-4 min pieces and 9-10 minute pieces.

I would suggest you find a the best teacher you can. One who will get excited about teaching you when present him/her with obvious passion for piano study. And I think a great first piece to bring to that teacher would be the g min. ballade. However, I too am currently self-taught and so can not, and would not, speak against self-progression; but having had the enormous benefit of studying under several extremely proficient piano pedagogues, I can definitively attest to the enhanced progress which can be made under a teacher.

To give you my best guess as to the time it might take you to learn the g min. ballade (and again having never heard you play, such estimates are very likely not accurate):

-maybe 3 months (assuming a good hr+/day on the ballade) to have it reasonably under your fingers.
-maybe 6-8 months to have it really comfortable under your hands, with very few if any mistakes.
-but probably only like 3-4 months to get you to that point if you have a teacher to see your mistakes for you, and who ostensibly would have the appropriate solutions in those situations.

Seriously, good luck. The g min. ballade is one of my all time favorites as well, and the best thing to to do is to learn at a pace comfortable to you, so you don't burn yourself out on it. I think polishing up that nocturne as well as some other smaller Chopin pieces (more nocturnes, preludes, maybe a few of the mazurkas) to saturate your mind and hands in his style would not go amiss to learn prior to starting the ballade.

LD

[stevebob]

To give you my best guess as to the time it might take you to learn the g min. ballade (and again having never heard you play, such estimates are very likely not accurate):

-maybe 3 months (assuming a good hr+/day on the ballade) to have it reasonably under your fingers.
-maybe 6-8 months to have it really comfortable under your hands, with very few if any mistakes.
-but probably only like 3-4 months to get you to that point if you have a teacher to see your mistakes for you, and who ostensibly would have the appropriate solutions in those situations.

My own guess, given the limited amount of information available, is that these estimates are very unrealistic.  That ballade is advanced repertoire requiring advanced technical development, and the original poster doesn't have it.

@rayneval:  You may be underestimating the time, effort and discipline that go into serious musicianship.  You gotta walk before you run!  A progressive course of study builds the necessary foundation, and a typical student would reach the point of readiness for difficult repertoire after several years (assuming the requisite amount of natural aptitude).

Self-teaching is inefficient for many people, and it doesn’t appear effective for you; like others, I recommend you find a good teacher and start putting in the work you need.  Learning to read music with greater facility should be a high priority, so be prepared to deal with the baby steps and building blocks of a structured, methodical approach.  Anything less is likely to continue to be frustrating and unsuccessful.

Nobody can predict how far or how fast you will advance.  The hard reality is not that it’s “too late,” but simply that there are no shortcuts to the goal.  Start taking the steps that have proved likeliest to lead to the results you seek, and enjoy the journey.  There’s lots of great music to explore at every level along the way.

[rayneval]

Thank you both for your replies,
so then how do i learn this ballade properly? should i start off doing something easier, or can i still attempt it? is getting a teacher a must since i'm not at an advanced level?

what techniques can i use, i hear that Ernest Hutcheson's book - Piano Technique is good, will this help for a piece like the Ballade?

any other advice is helpful !!

[scottmcc]

you should probably be able to force yourself through the first page or so with minimal difficulty, but once you get to the "hard parts" you'll quickly hit a wall.  I'd suggest you work your way up with some "stepping stone" pieces.  look at what the technical demands are in the ballade, and find a different piece that you like which addresses the same technique.  for instance, the left hand often has a waltz character accompaniment.  why not learn an easier chopin waltz, such as op 69 #1 (L'adieu) to familiarize yourself with this style, as well as gain insight into chopin's writing in general? (also, that waltz is a great little bit of music as well)  both the ballade and this waltz are very typical of his writing style.  obviously, you will need more stepping stones than just this, but this is a small example of the process. 

I left you a reply on your other thread regarding sight reading, hopefully that is of some help.

[rayneval]

Thank you, I printed that off and it doesn't seem to bad. I'm quite slow though but oh well - i'm quite confident i can learn this without too much trouble.

Should i learn the right hand first and then left for each page before together, is this a bad way to do it? I've heard someone before say it is, but i don't know how i could go about both at the same time to start.. Does it really matter?

I've also noticed my fingers don't form the proper curved shape, i find it difficult to play like this so they are more flat but i can play fine with.. should i try and change this, does this really matter?