Im sick of the Mozart bashing

[ahmedito]

Im sick of the Mozart bashing... he is one of the greatest composers of all time. His music displays not only great knowledge but great emotion as well. One of the things that has surprised me the most here is the quantity of posts that read something like: I hate Mozart. or I hate Mozart.... except for the Requiem and the Cm Fantasie Sonata... I dont get it, whats there to hate?

The worst of all came way back: "I hate Mozart, he´s so prissy and gay." I was angry all day after having read that. Is it our fault? (teachers hear), are we teaching Mozart so that instead of liking it students hate it? I dont know, but I cant imagine my life as a musician without Mozarts music. His Eb concerto is one of the reasons I started playing.

[larse]

Mozart is, as it is, one of the great geniouses of history. He is supposed to be the nr 1 Wonderchild, followed by Mendelsohn, and so on. They all keep record of this.

The reason Mozart is hated so much, as well as Haydn, I think is because their music is...to put it bluntly...boring. And the only reason people love Mozarts requiem is because it's always too romanticly performed..people love it that way. But I agree, I'm not fond of Mozart, that's my opinion. To call him gay is wrong, as he died of syphilis. But it's the time, it's just like Beethovens early pieces. It's full of alberto-basses and C major scales. It's just not as interresting as Liszt, Chopin, late Beethoven, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Shostakovic, Khachaturean, Schumann, Mendelsohn pherhaps, or something larger and romantic. If we(from a students point of view) want consolation and meditation, we turn to Bach which is Baroque. That makes him the same as the romantics: Full of emotions.

Mozart was also full of emotions. We've all heard it, and there's alot by Mozart which is interresting. Just not his Piano Sonatas. Nor the Serenades, the early symphonies, and some of the masses. Not to forget the Operas(I do not like(not hate) opera). They're all too...Johann Strauss: Too Pop-music. He seems to be sucking up the aristocraty's ass. Which he is.

Sorry.. It's late. I write alot of crap when it's late.

[ahmedito]

I agree, you write a lot of crap.

[larse]

Don't be mad. Mozart has a lot of light spots. Dm Concerto. C Concerto. Actually most of his concertos are great. And there's the Violin Concertos. The recordings of Anne Sophie Mutter which I have are seriously fantastic.

But you must agree. It's alot easier for the untrained listener to fall for someone like Chopin or Liszt rather than Mozart. Mozart is slower and less agressive, and he keeps playing in C, D and G Major.
But you know all this.

[Fastzuernst]

I personally believe that the reason so many bash Mozart is because they think it sounds easy. Beethoven on the other hand is usually portrayed as hard, partially because of different use of chords and harmony, as well as more extreem dynamics.
Also, one of the qualities of the classical period was its restrainment, and simplicity. This dosen't translate as well in our day and age of indulgence. No wonder many pianists prefer the romantic period over the classical period!

It is all a matter of opinion! Don't get offended, and  keep playing Mozart! Maybe you can make those who don't appreciate his music see the light.

[ahmedito]

The thing I see, not to call you inmature, is that Mozart appeals to the completely non-musical because its fun and moving. But it also appeals to the most experienced musicians because after many years you appreciate his genius and start to see other things that you thought you liked when younger as superficialities. Its usually the teenage age group that does not appreciate Mozart, usually because of a search for fireworks and superficial rebelion. 13-15 in my experience is usually the time when students fall in love with Liszt and Chopin, 16-18 is usually Brahms and late Beethoven and Debussy and Prokovieff, in the early 20's you realize Mozart is a genius.... I dont know, these are just generalizations. Its hard to convince a teenager Mozart is great because it seems not all of his music appeals to that age group, but afterwards, those same students fall in love with him. I wonder, any other Mozart lover out there, how could you convince students that Mozart isnt just albertis and sucking up to the aristocracy? (By the way, you couldnt be more wrong on this point... Beethoven was more popular with the aristocracy than Mozart in that sense)

[willcowskitz]

How I see it: Mozart is childish in the sense that the moods and emotions that his music displays are often naive and "overly obvious", which makes appreciation more difficult as one gains age because the child's mind loses it's function. The 'eternal bliss' of a child's mind no longer exists, everything seems to be readily laid out and thoroughly learnt for the adult mind, and the child-like curiosity and honesty start sounding naive. I've understood that Mozart was a *very* intuitive personality and he was both heavily affected by music and expressing himself through music was very easy for him because of this strong communication. I heard he never "grew up" in the sense of adapting to different norms or code of behaviour and etiquette as what's expected to happen in transition from childhood to adulthood, I see him as a little boy with honest, curious shine in his eyes, seeing the reality in some pure, innocent way that reflects in his compositions. I've also heard that children play Mozart better than most adults, which only strengthens the picture I've gotten from his music, and Horowitz didn't think he was ready to play Mozart's music until his very late years. From cradle to grave, as they say, we become children again. When we're old and have hopefully fulfilled our lives well enough, we can open up to the honesty of Mozart's music with nothing to lose.

[larse]

Ahmedito

First, I wrote at least three pages on your satupidity. Then I deleted it because it made no sense.
But:

Without pulling you down, do not attempt to post me as an inmature listener and point to my underdeveloped musical skill, as I am far beyond that subject. I'm not "discovering Mozart", I did that a long time ago. Mozart has been in my musical vocabulary as long as I can remember. And Mozart came, and Mozart went, as I am not interrested in his light diddle. I like the Dm Concerto because it's got a nerve. I hate the C major Sonata as I was forced to play it 8 years old. I do not like the general Mozart cause it's too damn predictable. And childish. Light storytelling operas with a humouristic content.

Damn. I'm leaving the subject again. The point here is, I made up my mind about Mozart a long time ago, and I have no reason to change it. As I am not a dedicated fan of anything, I would consider myself quite honest in my opinions as well. Anyways, you enjoy your Mozart, and I'll enjoy my Schnittke and Pärt.

[ahmedito]

Hey Larse, I wasnt reffering to you specifically when I said the age group thing (although I stand by it from personal experience). Having said that:

if the shoe fits....  

I like Part and Shnitke too, and Liszt and Chopin. What I simply dont get is how a person can hate such a big part of music and still have a mature opinion on the rest. Mozart is without a doubt one of the pillars of classical music.

[xvimbi]

The thing I see, not to call you inmature, is that Mozart appeals to the completely non-musical because its fun and moving. But it also appeals to the most experienced musicians because after many years you appreciate his genius and start to see other things that you thought you liked when younger as superficialities.

If something needs years of training before one can appreciate it, do not expect that everyone will go wild about it. If beauty and ingenuity are not immediately obvious, it will not appeal to the uninitiated . If you tell students "Oh, one day, when you are a mature and experienced musician, you will like Mozart, so you might just as well start liking him right now, darn it!", you basically flat out tell them that they are too stupid/inexperienced/immature to see the beauty in Mozart. It might be true, but it will hardly encourage them to get to know Mozart better. It is probably best to ignore the Mozart-haters and wait for them to start appreciating him. Then you can say "See, I told you so!".

[ahmedito]

I didnt write that, Will did.

Mozart is one of the composers (along with Vivaldi and few others) that apeals to non-musical audiences. There is something there, you cant say you need time to appreciate it. The thing Ive observed is that children love it, teenagers hate it and adults love it all over again.

[ted]

Willcowskitz:

I think you put that very well indeed. I can only add that, as adults, it is vital for us to hang on for dear life to what you call the childlike "eternal bliss". In fact life would be pretty poor if I did not, at least within my music, retain the ability to feel this way. The whole of the creative impulse comes from it.

The word "childish", of course, is a pejorative word meaning simply puerile. It is not impossible or uncommon for a human being to exhibit both tendencies, as apparently Mozart did, along with a very large number of the finest minds who have ever lived.

I do not, as yet, like or understand Mozart's music myself, but my doors of perception are always open and ready for the day I might do so.

[larse]

Well, I never said I hated Mozart. And I'm aware of his position in musical history, his famous life and burial, his child-like behaviour in public even as a grownup, his wife's sad tale. His operatic influence, the structure of his symphonies, the motive-technique he used for most of his compositions, I've studied scores and compared them.
I do not HATE it, and I do not oversee it. I just don't...'dig' alot of it. I feel alot of it are written from the top of his head, easy solutions. That does not go for everything he wrote, naturally, but alot of it. And, those 'easy solutions' comes from my eyes which are 200 years older. And our times, today, is an entirely different time where others as well seems to cross my road. It has nothing to do with the lack of knowledge and respect for Mozart. I just seem to get bored whenever I listen to his music.

[Hmoll]

Mozart was, of course, one of the greatest composers.
His greatest music was his operas, piano concertos, and some of his chamber music.

His best piano writing was in his piano concertos, unfortunately, his piano sonatas, are among his weakest pieces.

[Antnee]

His best piano writing was in his piano concertos, unfortunately, his piano sonatas, are among his weakest pieces.

Exactly. I love mozart. He's so relieving sometimes. Like Hmoll said, since his piano sonatas are among his weakest compositions, and since this is a piano forum... There is Mozart bashing. But people should not say Mozart was a shitty composer for that reason. They should just say, "well I don't care for Mozart piano sonatas". But His concertos and operas and symphonies are among the greatest. He was a genius and wrote music brilliantly. In fact his music is so perfect sometimes, that it turns many people off. But I agree, no more composer bashing... period... Lighten up guys.

-Tony-

[larse]

Well, you should know that I hate alot of music.

I hate Mozart cause he's got no talent.
I hate Brahms cause he never wrote anything serious.
I hate Haydn cause he's too damn modernistic.
I hate Chopin cause he never adds any emotions into his music.
I hate Liszt cause he was no good playing piano.
I hate Schönberg because he's too 'pop'
I hate Sorabij because his music's too easy.
I hate Shostakovic because he was such a good friend with Stalin
I hate Glass because he's too complex
I hate Bach cause he's just no good in contrapuncti
I hate Beethoven because he's too light in his symphonies
I hate Prokofiev because his piano concerto no 1 is so friggin easy
I hate Grieg cause he was too old when he wrote the Am Concerto
I hate Britten cause he's gay (that is actually true)

Naah...just playin' around

[willcowskitz]

I can only add that, as adults, it is vital for us to hang on for dear life to what you call the childlike "eternal bliss". In fact life would be pretty poor if I did not, at least within my music, retain the ability to feel this way. The whole of the creative impulse comes from it.

Yes! I am truly happy that there are people that do still possess this ability, as it saddens me how many around me seem to have lost it or are on the edge of letting go of it, just to turn into mere shells of what is human. Never release your soul!

[xvimbi]

What? Are we done with the Mozart bashing?

I don't think so!!

Beethoven didn't think too highly of Mozart's music...

Mozart bashers seem to be in good company.

[Lacrimosa]

I didn't like Mozart for a long time, and it always bothered me when some old person would say 'O but wait till you're older!'  

I don't think it has anything to do with age. I began to like Mozart when I discovered two things:

1) that I only like period performances (yes, that means I don't like him on the modern piano).

2) That there is much sadness in Mozart. And I don't just mean the Requiem. In many of his sonatas, even during the Allegros, there is a kind of nostalgic, haunting beauty; as though the happiness were ideal, not real.

O, and another thing: not everything Mozart wrote was a masterpiece, so don't expect to be equally pleased with everything he wrote.  

[ahmedito]

Why do you want to be sad all the time? Sad in a sick sense? I mean, thats the romantic aspect that Beethoven hated. Beethoven had a heroic mentality, he wrote various times about early romantics. In his opinion they enjoyed their sadness, wallowed in it, didnt attempt to overcome their problems but just wanting to complain to the world: Im Sad! Im Sad! listen to me. Beethoven on the other hand would see a problem and conquer it. Few of his compositions dont reflect this struggle problem---> solution mentality. Mozart is also sad sometimes, but not in a morbid sense but always in a "consolation" sort of way. He always gives you hope, and something to look forward to, and his mentality (even though he suffered so much) in the sad music is "its not so bad".
Now, I still stand by my theory of most teenagers not liking Mozart (most of them anyway, I loved him back then too) because I feel this is part of the adolescent mentality (I passed through there too), and because of simple observation. Brooding in your sadness, wanting to show everyone how much you suffer, even the word adolescent means that etymologically (adolescent, "dolor" is pain, adolescent literally means someone in pain). Basically, there is not much to relate to for adolescents in most of Mozarts music, because they are eager to stop being children, and Mozart is all about childhood innocence and hope.

The thing about Beethoven not liking Mozart is a romantic myth. There is plenty of proof out there that Beethoven considered Mozart one of the greatest composers out there, but I am not like Bernhard, I am too lazy to go out looking for internet links to post that here. Beethoven actually went for lessons with Mozart first, but they were really in different social circles in that part of Beethovens life, so he wasnt very accesible (unlike Haydn, who took Beethoven in for a brief period). Some commentaries by Beethoven exist, but are taken out of context, since the reason Beethoven disliked Mozart in that particular comment was because his father had forced him in his childhood to perform and practice, trying to get rich like Mozart's father Leopold.

My english is not good, its not even my second languaje... its my third. Hope the ideas came through right. I love the sonatas. Mozarts ideas were constantly taking shape in his head, even if not on paper and there is a definate progress in his work. Before you post something bashing Mozart I challenge you to listen to these works and not be moved:

Clarinet quintet
Clarinet concerto Eb
Piano concerto 27
The Magic Flute
Don Giovanni
Jupiter Sinfony (The last movement is a very famous counterpoint of 5 different themes)
Requiem

These are some of his most famous works, but try listening to the not so popular movements or parts.

Maybe also the:

Violin sonatas (especially e minor)
The piano sonatas (especially the andantes)
and... well, everything else.  

[liszmaninopin]

Well, I'm probably inviting criticism by saying this, but I really don't care for Mozart's piano music.  Yeah, as a pianist one is rather expected to play it, but that doesn't mean I especially enjoy it.  Really, for me, the primary reason is that his piano music is rather uninteresting.  It's so direct in communication-that it doesn't involve me as a listener or performer.  Listening to most of the great composers' music, every now and then a passage comes along that is so amazingly wonderful, it penetrates one in an indescribable way.  I have yet to be deeply affected by Mozart's solo piano writing, thusly, I do not care for it.

[newsgroupeuan]

Most people here dislike easy music just beacause it's easy to play.

Mozart was quite a good composer. He didn't have to resort to beefing up every phrase with virtuosity to make his stuff sound good

[liszmaninopin]

Did Chopin beef up every phrase with virtuosity?  Particularly in some of his preludes, he used notes in a simple way to achieve a powerful effect.  Even Haydn, to me, wrote piano music that is more interesting and affecting than Mozart's.  Would you accuse Haydn of empty virtuosity?  Some of the shorter Beethoven works lack virtuosity, but they certainly don't lack depth.  Just because I don't care for Mozart, does not mean that I dislike non-virtuosic music.

[rohansahai]

i think that to enjoy Mozart, we should shun the absolute purist ideology and try and make Mozart interesting. Introduce some sharp contrasts and see how lively and interesting the music becomes! It is better to try something different and enjoy it than play Mozart like having medicines!!

[Sketchee]

Mozart wrote a lot of interesting music. Just not for solo piano!  

[Lacrimosa]

Why do you want to be sad all the time? Sad in a sick sense? I mean, thats the romantic aspect that Beethoven hated. Beethoven had a heroic mentality, he wrote various times about early romantics. In his opinion they enjoyed their sadness, wallowed in it, didnt attempt to overcome their problems but just wanting to complain to the world: Im Sad! Im Sad! listen to me. Beethoven on the other hand would see a problem and conquer it. Few of his compositions dont reflect this struggle problem---> solution mentality. Mozart is also sad sometimes, but not in a morbid sense but always in a "consolation" sort of way. He always gives you hope, and something to look forward to, and his mentality (even though he suffered so much) in the sad music is "its not so bad".
Now, I still stand by my theory of most teenagers not liking Mozart (most of them anyway, I loved him back then too) because I feel this is part of the adolescent mentality (I passed through there too), and because of simple observation. Brooding in your sadness, wanting to show everyone how much you suffer, even the word adolescent means that etymologically (adolescent, "dolor" is pain, adolescent literally means someone in pain). Basically, there is not much to relate to for adolescents in most of Mozarts music, because they are eager to stop being children, and Mozart is all about childhood innocence and hope.

Look, you hear in Mozart what you want, and I'll hear in it what I want. Music can be interpreted in infinite ways. It depends on the listener. I am very much a Romantic, and I find it difficult to relate to composers (or writers, for that matter) who remove themselves from the Suffering of this world; I'm not saying they have to be miserable all the time, and I wouldn't say that Mozart was a morbid composer; but yes, I hear a tint of sadness in much of his music, which redeems it from any accusation of frivolity and gives it relevance to my life. But that's just the way  I hear it, and the way I interpret it. You have all right to interpret Mozart's music with your own frivolous innocence I you like. Frankly I don't care.

But I am insulted, Ahmedito, by what you said against Romantic composers being 'sick' & 'complaining' without 'attempting to overcome their sadness'. Maybe one day when you have experienced true Hopelessness, you will  understand  a little better.

[ahmedito]

1. I did not reffer explicitly to you about the sadness in Mozart. I see how you could think that Lacrimosa, because your post is right above mine, but I was actually reffering to the half dozen of people who dont like Mozart cause its too happy. My english is not that good. In spanish there is a different word for plural you and singular you. Sorry bout that, if you thought I was insulting you personally.

2. I did not say those things about the romantic composers, Beethoven did. It is not my opinion. It is Beethoven's. Its in the history books. Its in Beethovens letters. I did not say I thought that, I said Beethoven thought that (since someone back there posted that Beethoven didnt like Mozart.... he didnt like Schubert, Schumman or Mendhelsson either.) The early romantics idolized Beethoven, Beethoven disliked their music very much. Although their virtuosity and capacity for improvisation impressed him.

3. It is dangerous to accuse people of not having had true hopelesness on such an impersonal thing as an internet forum. It is stupid, because you have absolutely no idea what I have been through and only demean me; please dont do it, keep this at an impersonal level... unless you want to hear my whole life story, then make an opinion based on that.

[ahmedito]

On the subject of hoplessness.

I unfortunately have passed through very bad times in my life, as everyone else. I would like to think that I am now at a moment, having seen enough suffering in others and myself, to be able to diferenciate hopelessness from teen age angst. True sadness always invites consolation, which is what I hear in Mozarts music.

Nothing frivolous about that.

False sadness is just about being sad for the hell of it. I dont think this is the case in the romantic composers, but I understand Beethovens use of these terms to describe them, considering his background. Someone who has trully suffered (as he did) seems to be in a position to think this way.

[ayahav]

As pianists, narturally, we have only Mozart's piano music to play. This amounts to the Sonatas, the two Fantasies, the Concerti, and a few other works. I think I will be able to establish a concensus concerning Mozart's piano music in relation to his other works. Except for the concerti (which have an orchestra), Mozart's piano music lacks the changes of timbre that we enjoy hearing in Beethoven (for instance). The quality of the compositions that Mozart has written for piano solo is inferior to the quality of composition displayed in his operas and his symphonies. I emphasise that this is my own opinion, but I have met quite a few people of the same opinion. Now, I will also stress that this isn't necessarily Mozart's fault. The instrument that Mozart had was not quite like the instrument that Rachmaninoff had. Rachmaninoff's piano was much like an orchestra, we must remember.
On a different note (no pun intended), the first post in this thread seems to (consciously or not) imply that people enjoy certain compositions by Mozart more than others. Namely, people find his works in a minor key of better quality than those in a major key. These works, the ones in a minor key, are special not only because of the greater expression that is demanded for their performance, but also because of they minor-key nature. Not many works from the period of Mozart and Haydn are in a minor key. In fact, it can be argued that the tendency towards minor keys in the Romantic era is a direct result of the strong emphasis on major keys in the Classical era.
I will stop at this point, just to touch on a little detail: Mozart hardly, if ever, composed in a minor key unless he was in a time of distress. His mother had to die for the A minor sonata, for example. He was paranoid, and that's how the Requiem came about.
For this reason I think the works mentioned are the gems of Mozart's repertoire, and some other music by him is inferior to those works and inferior to his best work (the operas and the symphonies, in my opinion).

Amit Yahav

[Tash]

well i am a teenager still and i like mozart. love his symphonies, they're great to study to! don't really like playing his piano sonatas but don't mind listening to them. thus not all teenagers dislike mozart. and i can't say i ever really let their personalities interfere with my thoughts on their music so whether mozart was 'prissy' or whatever i don't really care.

[ahmedito]

thank you.

By the way, in the classical era, the minor key was regarded as imperfect and not appropiate for many events. Even so, Mozart, while bound to the rules of his profesion wrote in minor keys constantly as modulations inside major key works. Something frowned on very much by his contemporaries.

I agree completely on the fact that Mozarts piano was very limited, hence Beethovens timbrical genius in comparison. We owe Mozart many of the changes that were brought about on our instrument though. In Mozarts time, and Clementi's, the way of writing for the piano was like for an orchestra (a classical one), and Im sure we can find this in his piano works. The fact is, that many teachers see Mozart as perfect pedagogical material and play it blandly without any respect for the timbrical variety that Mozart expressed in other genres.  And they use the piano of that time to justify playing a boring Mozart, with no dynamics or timbre. Believe me, Ive had a lot of trouble with other teachers at the schools Ive been in because of the way I like to play Mozart (and the way my teacher likes it) not to mention so many great pianists... Brendel, Alicia de la Rocha, and my FAVOURITE Mozart interpreter Dame Mayra Hess.

The piano sonatas really suffer when played wrong. The go from full of life to dead, just like that.

[xvimbi]

The fact is, that many teachers see Mozart as perfect pedagogical material and play it blandly without any respect for the timbrical variety that Mozart expressed in other genres.  And they use the piano of that time to justify playing a boring Mozart, with no dynamics or timbre. Believe me, Ive had a lot of trouble with other teachers at the schools Ive been in because of the way I like to play Mozart (and the way my teacher likes it) not to mention so many great pianists... Brendel, Alicia de la Rocha, and my FAVOURITE Mozart interpreter Dame Mayra Hess.

Your mentioning of bland interpretations opened my venting valve. What annoys me is the clinging of many performers to conventions that are often dubious at best. I constantly hear "One MUST play Chopin this way", "One MUST play Mozart that way", often followed by "That's how he intended it to be played" or "This is how everybody has done it for the eternity of time". If you dig deeper, it turns out that many of these "rules" are hotly debated. E.g., scholars even today argue about whether appogiaturas in Chopin's or Beethoven's music are played on or before the beat.

It seems to me that there are many unfounded rules that severely restrict the interpretative possibilities, hence all those bland performances. Yes, Chopin didn't like the over-use of rubato, but - honestly - his music is even more interesting when using a lot of rubato. We are living today, we play on today's instruments, so let's play Chopin, Beethoven and Mozart how we feel today.

I am not talking about distorting the composer's intentions, I am simply arguing that there is much more freedom in music than many teachers, performers and scholars make us believe.

This is really a topic for another thread, and I am sure I'll get angry responses (again) for my rattling the ivory towers, which I love to do

[ahmedito]

Nope... I quite agree.

My famous musicians usually give new life to the music the play.... Glenn Gould, Nigel Kennedy (best rock and bach violinist on the planet) for Bach for example.

The problem I see, and this applies to Mozart as well, is that many people stop regarding music as something that is alive, but as something to be viewed as in a museum.

[liszmaninopin]

I know what you mean.

Bach gets similarly mangled very frequently, I regret to report.

[Lacrimosa]

1. I did not reffer explicitly to you about the sadness in Mozart. I see how you could think that Lacrimosa, because your post is right above mine, but I was actually reffering to the half dozen of people who dont like Mozart cause its too happy. My english is not that good. In spanish there is a different word for plural you and singular you. Sorry bout that, if you thought I was insulting you personally.

2. I did not say those things about the romantic composers, Beethoven did. It is not my opinion. It is Beethoven's. Its in the history books. Its in Beethovens letters. I did not say I thought that, I said Beethoven thought that (since someone back there posted that Beethoven didnt like Mozart.... he didnt like Schubert, Schumman or Mendhelsson either.) The early romantics idolized Beethoven, Beethoven disliked their music very much. Although their virtuosity and capacity for improvisation impressed him.

3. It is dangerous to accuse people of not having had true hopelesness on such an impersonal thing as an internet forum. It is stupid, because you have absolutely no idea what I have been through and only demean me; please dont do it, keep this at an impersonal level... unless you want to hear my whole life story, then make an opinion based on that.

I don’t care if Beethoven said it: you obviously quoted him to defend your own argument that adolescents cannot appreciate Mozart. And I didn’t take your remark against  ‘sick’ people who ‘do not attempt to overcome their problems’  as ‘referring explicitly’ to me (even though I was the first and only person who answered in this thread to bring up specifically the subject of sadness in Mozart): I understood it  as referring to anyone, listener or composer, who has a ‘brooding’ ‘Romantic aspect’, or ‘adolescent’ mentality, as you termed it. It was certainly you who were the first to have entered a ‘personal’ level over the internet by what seems to me to imply, in exceptionally good English, that us brooding Romantics should, basically, stop whining over puberty and grow up!

Maybe we should just turn our backs and agree that we both simply disagree on anything that has to do with Mozart (except, of course, that we both like him). You think that the dynamics on the fortepiano make Mozart sound ‘boring’; I think that the fortepiano is the only instrument on which he should be performed. You like Alicia de la Rocha’s interpretations of Mozart; I think they stink.

[willcowskitz]

About interpretation and how one is "supposed to" play a piece:  I have met people who try to follow tempo and dynamics markings as strictly as possible, and are even ready to tell someone if they're playing it "incorrectly" because they're not paying attention to these descriptions of how the composer (or *sigh* the editor) thought the piece to be played. For me, tempo and dynamics markings are nothing but suggestions that complement the actual notations, they're hints of what the piece is trying to communicate and how to effectively bring it out best. However there is always more to music than the composers themselves possibly realized, that's why we DO have interpretations from different artists (whose art is this act of interpreting same old notes in new fresh different ways), and I often "disagree" with the markings on a sheet music. All I want from the sheet is what keys I should be pressing and in what order - the rest is up to my imagination and what the particular piece communicates and means to ME.

[Saturn]

I think that the fortepiano is the only instrument on which he should be performed.

Heaven forbid good music be played on the wrong instrument...

It seems to me that there are many unfounded rules that severely restrict the interpretative possibilities, hence all those bland performances. [...] I am not talking about distorting the composer's intentions, I am simply arguing that there is much more freedom in music than many teachers, performers and scholars make us believe.

Here here!

[ahmedito]

Ugh.

Lacrimosa, what the hell is your problem! you seem to take everything personally.

1, When reffering to romantics, I obviously mean the composers of the romantic period, not you or any other people here who consider themselves romantic.

2, I have cleared it up, cant you understand? I dont think that about the romantics I said Beethoven did! And I put it up because Xvimbi said that Beethoven disliked Mozart so Mozart haters are in good company, not to defend the argument that teenagers see more in romantics than in Mozart.

3, I did not say I dislike the fortepiano. I said that many teachers take its reduced dynamic range as justification to teach a bland dynamicless Mozart. I love the fortepiano.

I still think that most teenagers, having been one myself, dont want happy music or hopeful music as much as they want sad or bravura music. I think it goes with the age, and the "impetuosness of youth"...


I cant understand why you think what I post reffers to you, and how you misinterpret everything I say as something insulting to you.

UGH!


And if you think Alicia de la Rocha's interpretations of Mozart stink you:
a) have not heard them at all.
b) don't know what the hell youre talking about, seeming to be one of those people who thinks period performance automatically equals good music.

[arensky]

BUMP

[Jacey1973]

I hadn't realised that some people didn't like Mozart on this forum - he always seems to be praised from what i've seen.

However, if this is so perhaps it is an age thing. I remember a piano lesson i had with an old piano teacher a few years ago and he told me i was to learn a Mozart sonata. I wasn't particulary keen at the time because as a teenager i perceived his compositions to be "easy" or even "boring". My teacher said that he found he appreciated Mozart more with age - when he was a young pianist he wanted to learn all the romantic, virtuosic, exciting, dramatic, showy pieces (Liszt, Chopin, Rachmaninov etc).

Now i'm older i really understand what he means. These days i adore Mozart i can't believe i ever found his music tedious or easy - i now know how much skill is required in being able to play his piano repertoire. Learning Mozart i find, teaches you to achieve great skill and technique. There are alot of young pianists on this forum who perhaps have the same mind set, and maybe have not fully explored more than just a handful of Mozart compositions...

[Jacey1973]

BUMP

Ah...damn you arensky! 

[gruffalo]

I hate Shostakovic because he was such a good friend with Stalin

that one made me laugh.

Anyways, i am going to give the wise words of a teenager, as i am currently 17.
Mozart...well first what i have to say is that the teachers brought us up listening to the piano sonatas which are pretty rubbish. They are too happy clappy and are too simplistic for me.

Its all about maturity. even when i started to listen to the Piano Concertos i was still not liking Mozart much. But whats happening to me now, i notice that as i get older, my appreciation of composers moves further and further back down the timeline. i still dont love Mozart, but i am beginning to appreciate it and what we have to understand is that not all of it is complex because it was all NEW AT THAT TIME. to them it was GENIUS music. i still think it is, but the fact that we have heard such complex music from the likes of Chopin, Rachmaninov etc, means that Mozart appears so easy to us. i can compose a Mozart piano Sonata off the top of my head, but i didnt accept until now, the fact that there was no other music like Mozarts at the time, it was all new and original. and i think in a few hundred years time people will be bashing Chopin saying thats boring and unoriginal.

[Jacey1973]

that one made me laugh.

Anyways, i am going to give the wise words of a teenager, as i am currently 17.
Mozart...well first what i have to say is that the teachers brought us up listening to the piano sonatas which are pretty rubbish. They are too happy clappy and are too simplistic for me.

Its all about maturity. even when i started to listen to the Piano Concertos i was still not liking Mozart much. But whats happening to me now, i notice that as i get older, my appreciation of composers moves further and further back down the timeline. i still dont love Mozart, but i am beginning to appreciate it and what we have to understand is that not all of it is complex because it was all NEW AT THAT TIME. to them it was GENIUS music. i still think it is, but the fact that we have heard such complex music from the likes of Chopin, Rachmaninov etc, means that Mozart appears so easy to us. i can compose a Mozart piano Sonata off the top of my head, but i didnt accept until now, the fact that there was no other music like Mozarts at the time, it was all new and original. and i think in a few hundred years time people will be bashing Chopin saying thats boring and unoriginal.

See! Exactly what i was saying.  Gruffalo you're becoming wiser already - give it a couple more years and you will adore Mozart!

[leahcim]

i can compose a Mozart piano Sonata off the top of my head, but i didnt accept until now, the fact that there was no other music like Mozarts at the time

Pedantically you can't, because you're not Mozart. You can write Gruffalo sonatas.

It seems likely that anyone can compose a piano sonata in whatever idiom they wish. A few lines of c code have managed it after all.

But it's like comparing learning the rules of chess versus being Kasparov.

If that was sufficient and necessary to be Mozart [or any of the other great composers] then there'd be English composers of note

[panic]

I think Mozart is exactly where he belongs in the popular mindset. I cannot love most of his works but I respect all of them. I guess my main problem with Mozart is not that his music is not "difficult" to play or something, but that 1) it's so ingenious that a lot seems too quickly conceived and contrived in final form and 2) I rarely hear anything daring in it. I've heard that Mozart could write whole symphonies in four days and while that is amazing, it seems as though he would not stop and think "Now, what are alternate ways that I could phrase this that haven't been done before and that would be even more powerful?" because he already knew what it would sound like with tried-and-true techniques and was dead-set on using them. Beethoven, in the second movement of Sonata Pathetique, had the right hand doing part of the texture as well as the melody, something that hadn't been done before. If Mozart had composed the same movement, he probably would have come up with the whole concept in a matter of hours, such was his genius, but he would have missed that little example of the avant-garde that Beethoven used. He probably would have had the right hand playing straight melody and the left hand playing straight accompaniment. That's what a lot of his music sounds like to me. It seems to be so ingeniously caught up in practices of the time, and contrived so fast, that there's not really enough to distinguish one work from another in terms of texture or layout.

[bearzinthehood]

If a robot composed music it would sound just like Mozart's piano sonatas.

You have to be mature enough to appreciate Mozart's music?  Please, if maturity is what it takes to prefer a tesselation to a wonderfully organic painting then I don't want any of your brand of maturity.

[leahcim]

OTOH, drawing a circle or a straight line without a compass and a ruler is difficult, whereas anyone can scribble a few fancy organic looking curves and people will see symbols in it.

[pita bread]

Some people like Mozart, some do not. Some people will change their opinion, some will not.

However, this age and maturity stuff is bullshit.

[pitifulpaul1]

OTOH, drawing a circle or a straight line without a compass and a ruler is difficult, whereas anyone can scribble a few fancy organic looking curves and people will see symbols in it.

Making a sculpture of Ronald McDonald out of raw cookie dough might be tough as hell but... mmm, raw cookie dough...

Cookie dough is delicious, especially when its homemade.  The best is feasting off the spoon used to stir the pot of cookie dough.  I don't really like the artificial stuff.  One has to be weary of the quantity consumed since the raw eggs apparently can give you salmonella.  Becoming morbidly obese is also a concern.  In small amounts, though, cookie dough is ecstacy.

Oh yeah, and Mozart sucks balls.

[leahcim]

Making a sculpture of Ronald McDonald out of raw cookie dough might be tough as hell

It might, but I suspect it'd be relatively soft in texture. At least compared with the burgers.