Piano Forum



International Piano Day 2024
Piano Day is an annual worldwide event that takes place on the 88th day of the year, which in 2024 is March 28. Established in 2015, it is now well known across the globe. Every year it provokes special concerts, onstage and online, as well as radio shows, podcasts, and playlists. Read more >>

Topic: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch  (Read 4985 times)

Offline keyb0ardfweak

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
on: November 16, 2010, 01:45:49 PM
Hi,

I have came across many people who have perfect pitch and I would like to know if the experiment I have in mind would give any results, even if perfect pitch is not gained, I guess I would have a better relative pitch.



We can remember things, such as sounds that we can reproduce on our mind.
Like a dog bark, a bird tweeting, rain, etc. Also, the voices of people we know.

So, if we are able to do this, to name which sound has been produced, e.g, a siren sounds and we obviously know it is a siren...We should also be able to name notes if we are appropiately trained.


Now, if a pregnant mum is exposed to classical music, it is said that the baby will have good ear. When we sleep, it is like a state where we are like the baby inside the womb.

This means that, if we are exposed to music notes we would have better ear.


By the way, there is a method for learning languages while someone is sleeping.



The problem is that, we can hear the notes but we don't have that name for it. Actually, las summer I tried this experiment, I used headphones and played on my digital piano all the twelve notes, separated each one by 5 seconds.
I noticed some results..but if I continue doing this, would I gain perfect pitch??

I also tried putting always the same piece repeating all over the night, but nothing happened.
I got really stressed with the pieces I played( Sinfonia 15 from Bach and Invention 13)


What do you think about this??
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.” Henry Ford

Offline pianist1976

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 506
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 04:02:10 PM
I think that you must first ask yourself why do you want to have this so called "perfect pitch". Having it will not hurt you, of course but, in my opinion, that will not make you a better musician. Once you get the reference tone, perfect pitch and non perfect pitch people start with the same opportunities (and difficulties). I have seen in my life excellent relative pitch ears and not as good and even mediocre absolute pitch ears. Of course, I've also seen the opposite cases.

Instead of trying to acquire it artificially with doubtful results, I'd rather focus in the real study of music. It's much more interesting and important to understand how the music works (analysis, Harmony, music forms...) and its relative relations than an ability of doubtful utility.

Offline birba

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3725
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 04:57:50 PM
I wholeheartedly agree.  Sometimes it might be useful when you're in the first steps of memorizing.  But that's it.  Martha Argerich doesn't have perfect pitch and she's not bothered by it.  And she still learns by ear.  THAT I will never understand.

Offline keyb0ardfweak

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #3 on: November 16, 2010, 09:26:48 PM
I somehow agree with what you've said.

It's just that it would be really nice and cool to get all this songs, and pieces knowing the tonality, which notes are played and all of that. Also, like Mozart, he composed without even having the instrument with him!!  :o

I am a student in the conservatory and I enjoy studying music. It's just that I would like to have this ability, and if not, a better ear to improve my music skills.
“If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.” Henry Ford

Offline scottmcc

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #4 on: December 02, 2010, 11:11:13 AM
if you do a medline search you'll see that you aren't the first person to have some curiosity about perfect pitch.  let me get you started:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

you'll get more relevant results if you call it absolute pitch as opposed to perfect pitch.

Offline perfect_pitch

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8494
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 12:44:13 PM
I also tried putting always the same piece repeating all over the night, but nothing happened.

I tried that as well... I can listen to a piece and pick it up incredibly quickly thanks to my perfect pitch... however, when you're asleep - there is no way you can still audibly pick up on the music while you sleep. I think you're just too relaxed and too 'shut down' when you sleep to absorb music.

Don't think it could work for anyone.



Although... here's an interesting idea. Get a recording of a sine wav... say A 440hz, and have that on repeat while you sleep. Just that single note - that 'might' help. It may help you start to recognise different pitches. Then try a different note and see if that helps.

I'm just saying this as an experiment - it won't help me at all.

Offline scottmcc

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #6 on: December 02, 2010, 10:27:51 PM
perfect pitch, that's already been done.  you may recognize that a:440 sine wave as the dial tone on your phone (if you still use a good old fashioned telephone with a dial tone).

here's the article about it:  J Acoust Soc Am. 2008 Apr;123(4):EL77-84.
Dial A440 for absolute pitch: absolute pitch memory by non-absolute pitch possessors.
Smith NA, Schmuckler MA.

Abstract
Listeners without absolute (or "perfect") pitch have difficulty identifying or producing isolated musical pitches from memory. Instead, they process the relative pattern of pitches, which remains invariant across pitch transposition. Musically untrained non-absolute pitch possessors demonstrated absolute pitch memory for the telephone dial tone, a stimulus that is always heard at the same absolute frequency. Listeners accurately classified pitch-shifted versions of the dial tone as "normal," "higher than normal" or "lower than normal." However, the role of relative pitch processing was also evident, in that listeners' pitch judgments were also sensitive to the frequency range of stimuli.

PMID: 18396925 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Offline perfect_pitch

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8494
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #7 on: December 03, 2010, 12:33:16 AM
perfect pitch, that's already been done.  you may recognize that a:440 sine wave as the dial tone on your phone (if you still use a good old fashioned telephone with a dial tone).

Yeah, I know that... but I mean while you're sleeping. No one really listens to a dial tone... You could ask people on the street to sing the dial tone, but I doubt they could do it simply because no one really listens to it intently.

Plus knowing the note A, isn't even close to having relative pitch... you'd need to try and listen to a sine wave of all the other pitches too to try and see if it is possible to hear and memorise the tones.

Offline lostinidlewonder

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7498
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #8 on: December 03, 2010, 03:44:31 AM
I personally have never bothered about developing perfect pitch because its application is quite useless unless I could imagine if you are a piano tuner who likes to do it by ear. I have relative perfect pitch that is I know what middle C sounds like and I can relate any note I hear to that no matter which octave. But being able to simply say which note is being played is useless and I don't find it fast enough to be used to aid learning. However when I play things by memory and forget something my sound memory kicks in and corrects the wrong notes, I can hear the wrong notes and correct it with the right one my ear can tell me if that right note is higher or lower. Just being able to say which note you play is useless if it is played right, it is about playing a wrong note, and using your pitch training to help you correct the issue without direct conscious thought over the keys.
"The biggest risk in life is to take no risk at all."
www.pianovision.com

Offline birba

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3725
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #9 on: December 03, 2010, 07:35:01 AM
In my humble opinion, perfect pitch has absolutely nothing to do with memory.

Offline omar_roy

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 298
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 03:58:51 AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Perfect Pitch offers no real-world advantage over a musician that has an excellent relative pitch, that is, the ability to identify pitches, intervals, chords, etc etc given a reference pitch.  This can be achieved through ear training (solfeggio).  If you're in a conservatory, they should be training you in it.

Offline sevencircles

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 913
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #11 on: December 06, 2010, 03:11:44 PM
Quote
Martha Argerich doesn't have perfect pitch and she's not bothered by it.  And she still learns by ear.  THAT I will never understand.

Link to a reference please  ;)

You can learn by ear even if you only have relative pitch, I am just surprised that she can´t identify exact notes by ear  ;)

Offline goldentone

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1689
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #12 on: December 07, 2010, 09:21:24 PM
In my humble opinion, perfect pitch has absolutely nothing to do with memory.

I think this is a very good point.
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come

Offline nanabush

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2081
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #13 on: December 10, 2010, 05:42:53 AM
Ya same;

Also, telling the difference between a siren and a chicken is WAY different than telling the difference between an A and an Ab.  You might be able to tell that a saxophone is playing one of the notes, a tuba the other, but I think that timbre is something you can remember, but I don't think it works that easy with pitches... if it was like that, then WAY more people who have played music for five years would be able to differentiate between 12 tones...
Interested in discussing:

-Prokofiev Toccata
-Scriabin Sonata 2

Offline pianissimo123

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 06:07:47 AM
 :)  I was reading your post here, and I couldn't help but notice that you seem to be the same as myself, in your keen awareness of sound. My abilities in this area seem to be heightened. Believe it or not, I have actually been conducting an experiment and producing a theory of my own. It is with regard to perfect pitch and recollection of sound. I have been working on a detailed thesis on this theory as well. If anyone has any questions or concerns, including you, please feel free to notify me immediately upon reading my response.  ;)
Something good is on the way. I can feel it.
music is a harmonic connection between all living beings.
************************
music is not a machine running by means of inviable mechanisms.Not at all.Music is an organization of possibilities

Offline birba

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3725
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #15 on: December 11, 2010, 02:54:50 PM
Link to a reference please  ;)

She says it in her latest autobiography "L'enfant et les sortilèges".  She also says she can't recognize tonalites, but I really find that far-fetching. :o

Offline fleetfingers

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 621
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #16 on: December 13, 2010, 06:12:17 AM
Is her autobiography available in English? I would love to read it.

Offline birba

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3725
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #17 on: December 13, 2010, 07:28:23 AM
Not yet, at least.  Maybe I'LL translate it.   ;D

Offline svita

  • PS Silver Member
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 3
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #18 on: December 18, 2010, 06:01:55 AM
Perfect pitch is 100% learned skill. Most toddlers will develop it naturally if exposed to a tuned piano and taught.  Of course capacities and result may vary.
I was not trained  to it properly, so Im trying to learn it deliberately now. Pick up one or two pitches and hum them now and then and check  back with piano. Repeat for several days/weeks - eventually you'll get it. Add more notes.
Also there is app for Iphone called "perfect pitch".

Offline perfect_pitch

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8494
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #19 on: December 18, 2010, 06:44:12 AM
Perfect pitch is 100% learned skill. Most toddlers will develop it naturally if exposed to a tuned piano and taught. 

Erm... No. It isn't 100% learned skill. I never had a piano lesson, nor did I know ANYTHING about piano and yet I have it to this day. In the first 8 years of my life I had probably touched the piano for about a minute or less in total, and yet I can listen and learn pieces without touching the keyboard.

I didn't even think it could be taught... Relative pitch can be taught, but Perfect Pitch? I somehow doubt that.

Offline scottmcc

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #20 on: December 18, 2010, 11:11:52 AM
an interesting fact I read once related to perfect pitch is that people who are native speakers of a tonal language (such as mandarin or Vietnamese) are significantly more likely to have perfect pitch.  the explanation given was that pitch recognition is much more important, as it can change the meaning of the word spoken significantly.  I'm sure I'll botch the actual numbers, but the ballpark figure is that 1:10000 english speakers (population at large) will have perfect pitch, but up to 10% of professional musicians do.  for chinese speakers the numbers are something like 10% and 60%.

so to me, assuming the above is true, I think that perfect pitch is probably something that can be taught to a certain degree in some people, but there are clearly others who develop it in spite of their environs.  furthermore, there are others who are incapable of developing it.  I'm definitely in the latter category, and my mom even tried very hard to expose me to lots of music from an exceedingly young age--she even put the headphones on her belly when she was pregnant!

Offline birba

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3725
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #21 on: December 18, 2010, 11:28:12 AM
  --she even put the headphones on her belly when she was pregnant!
I've always been curious about the results of this.  Not so much for perfect pitch (in fact, NOT for perfect pitch, because you are born with it and no one will ever be able to change my mind to the contrary!) but as far as appreciation of classic music goes.  Did you always have this love for music  from when you were really little?  Did your mother notice any difference when she would put the earphones on her belly?  Like as if you were "listening" or at least aware of the music?  What kind of music did she play?

Offline fleetfingers

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 621
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #22 on: December 18, 2010, 07:31:21 PM
When I was pregnant, I played the organ at church. I would sit on the bench and wait until it was time to play and when I was not playing, I didn't feel any movement. As soon as I hit the first few chords, my baby would kick very hard for the entire song. It could've been the music, but it's also possible that he would've had that reaction to any loud noise. He is almost ten now, and plays the violin well (he begged me to get one for him when he was six). He also has taught himself all of the pieces I am teaching my beginning students by ear - on the piano and on the violin. And he plays his violin pieces on the piano, too. He sings in tune. He doesn't have perfect pitch - I've checked  ;D - but he has a good ear. I personally believe musical inclinations are inborn and only enhanced if a mom plays music while a baby is in the womb.

Offline birba

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3725
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #23 on: December 18, 2010, 08:26:47 PM
YES!!!!!!  I knew it!!  ;D

Offline scottmcc

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: EXPERIMENT: Perfect Pitch
Reply #24 on: December 19, 2010, 10:58:31 AM
I've always been curious about the results of this.  Not so much for perfect pitch (in fact, NOT for perfect pitch, because you are born with it and no one will ever be able to change my mind to the contrary!) but as far as appreciation of classic music goes.  Did you always have this love for music  from when you were really little?  Did your mother notice any difference when she would put the earphones on her belly?  Like as if you were "listening" or at least aware of the music?  What kind of music did she play?

she mostly listens to bach and beethoven (still does, although with a more normal stereo configuration).  I've always loved music, as has everyone in my family, although we've all got slightly different talents and tastes of course.  I don't know if I reacted or "listened" in utero--it was a long time ago!

but i do know that when I have kids, I will do my best to give them an appreciation for great music from an early age.  to do otherwise would be cruel in my opinion.
For more information about this topic, click search below!
 

Logo light pianostreet.com - the website for classical pianists, piano teachers, students and piano music enthusiasts.

Subscribe for unlimited access

Sign up

Follow us

Piano Street Digicert