teachers who push students, jumpgrades etc

[asianpianoer]

Some teachers push their students to the very limit, making them break down, cry etc.
However these are the teachers that produce students of a very high level.

how do i find one of these.

should all teachers do this to willing students?

[keypeg]

You want a teacher who works with you seriously and asks things of you that are necessary even when they are not fun, and who gives you honest feedback.  That doesn't have to be someone who makes you cry.  Some teachers who make students cry are power hungry bullies, and some do it to mask their own weaknesses as teachers, rather than out of teaching strength.  Making a student cry should not be a criterion.

I think (?) that jumping grades is the opposite of what you have in mind.  Some teachers make students happy by zipping through grades so their students feel they have achieved something, but they don't go deeply into anything.  They will pass a piece while it's still weak and missing things, and lower their standards.

I've thought about this a lot as a student.  I started off going very rapidly through grades - four in the first year - and I feel my learning was superficial.  I need to go back and get basic technical things more solidly because that's what advanced playing rests on.   As a student I would say tell a teacher your goal of wanting to work seriously, and then be ready to follow through.  Some teachers have told me that as soon as they work seriously with a student, the student quits or loses motivation, so they don't quite dare do it.

Recently I happened to be in a music store and I tested the waters while talking to a teacher there.  She suggested I come in to a trial lesson with a wish list of pieces I'd like to learn.  When I said that I'd like to learn what she, as a teacher, thought was important to make a good pianist rather than what I might want, this teacher showed a much different face.  She had a lot to say about what she would want to teach.

Since I'm writing this as a student I'd like to know what teachers think.

[m1469]

I can't say that I've ever been opposed to a teacher who has truly pushed me because they see potential in me, though I think I have a point of diminishing returns for awhile, until somewhere even deeper is reached.  I've been reached quite deeply without tears though, too.  I am neither opposed to tears nor pro tears as a rule as a student nor as a teacher, but it's very possible I have more to learn on this.  What I can say for sure --and for some reason I've just realized this ever so much more clearly as of today-- is that I've had a mega guard up when it comes to my inner pianist.  

I've always known I was somewhere in me quite shy, and I've always known I was protective, but I hadn't actually realized to just what extent I've been so incredibly guarded until quite recently.  That's who I think I have been to some degree naturally (as in, I spent MANY of the hours I was at home growing up, alone in my room), but then a pretty bad experience (something WAY beyond tears or not) seemed to compound the situation tremendously until I became out of reach even to myself.  I think that in that sense, it took somebody to be consistently reaching in, and perhaps that was a not easy job at all.  A huge thank you really to some friends and teachers presently and over the years.  As a student, I feel that I'm definitely a better pianist when I am not guarded like that, but I am practically a little newborn of a pianist without that guard.

As a teacher, I have accidentally made a couple of kids cry as admittedly, I can be perhaps a little "gruff" at times, but how that affects my students is definitely case by case.  I admit that generally I tend to be more serious in persona and what can be percieved as more rough with my more serious students and with the ones who I see potential in, unless there is something very definite that tells me I can't be like that with them.  I generally don't ask permission about that whether they are adult or child or both , but it's easy to find out in the situation.  That doesn't mean though that I am only that way, because I'm not.  We do laugh and sometimes with my girls we'll discuss haircuts and things for a brief time, but yeah, generally I mean business.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Hmmm... I'm willing to be pushed by my teacher, but I don't want to be made to break down and cry! I don't think it'd make me better at piano, maybe the opposite.

I don't think teachers who make their students break down and cry necessarily produce students of a very high level. But that is just me... I think different teachers suit different personalities. I'm quite sensitive.
 I think that if I ended up crying every lesson, it would probably take an emotional toll on me, and whatever caused me to cry would be in my head the whole week whenever I go near a piano---  which is not productive...
I also think I would not be able to be myself when playing in front of my teacher, for fear of being yelled at. 
 
I've never had an extremely strict teacher before though (I have had a teacher who yelled at me, but she did not make me cry, and I'm sure there are much stricter teachers out there), nor do I consider myself a student of a very high level.
 
 However I can say that my teacher pushes me to want to play better. She doesn't sugarcoat anything when giving constructive criticism. Sometimes we laugh at my mistakes, but that makes me remember what I did wrong and doesn't make me the least bit upset. She takes me seriously and understands that I don't just want to play piano, I want to play well. I've told her my goals, and using my goals my teacher's created a plan for me, and told me what her expectations are as well. My parents have told me that if I take piano seriously, my teacher would take me seriously. When I challenge myself, it is in a way challenging the teacher, and she will push and challenge me in return. I think that is probably true... it's a two way thing. I don't know if I'm working harder now because my teacher's pushing me harder, or if she's pushing me harder because I'm working harder. I think it's both.
 
Maybe you could ask your friends for recommendations. But my points are: 1) teachers probably will push you more if you push yourself and 2) good teacher doesn't necessarily mean one who makes students cry!

Disclaimer: I'm not one of those "students of a high level"  (but I try my best!)

[asianpianoer]

i just used cry as an emxample and i guess that yeah i wouldn't want to be hurt every lesson, buti guess each student is unique and somewill thrive on pressure

[pianist1976]

Some teachers push their students to the very limit, making them break down, cry etc.

What are you looking for, a piano teacher or a rugby coach? I agree that a good teacher must be very demanding with the pupil and mustn't pass over inaccuracies and errors that the bad teachers generally overlook (mostly because of ignorance). But a demanding attitude is not conflicted with a good personal treatment. The teacher is very important. No, it's more than important: it's fundamental, indispensable. But the pupil must be also mature enough to be self disciplined and must have a good work culture and be very conscious about only with effort you can reach a result (down with laziness). If someone needs anyone to remember him/her this every day, that's a bad start.

However these are the teachers that produce students of a very high level.

In my opinion (just my two cents), this is "in spite of", not "because of". There are also excellent teachers who doesn't need to make cry the pupil to teach him/her. And there are also unpleasant teachers who act like coaches but they really know little about piano and they usually destroy some pupils' lifes for nothing.

how do i find one of these.

Million dollar question. It's not easy at all. I found mine by chance (after years of awful and useless time losing with awful teachers)

should all teachers do this to willing students?

Absolutely not! (in my opinion). The good pupil knows what he/she wants. It's not necessary to brake him/her down to make him/her know what his/her objectives are.

[m1469]

But the pupil must be also mature enough to be self disciplined and must have a good work culture and be very conscious about only with effort you can reach a result (down with laziness). If someone needs anyone to remember him/her this every day, that's a bad start.

This is both plainly true and not plainly true all at the same time.  It's different in different phases of a person's life and depending on their overall life as a person at those times.  Sometimes a tremendous work ethic is there but buried under piles of discouragement and confusion.  Sometimes it's there but spread too thin between everything else going on in a person's life, and sometimes it's there in the form of the fact that they just enjoy sitting at the piano.  Fundamentally, it can come in a seemingly isolated form where the individual will be very ethical about one thing in their life, but the rest of their life is chaos, and then sometimes a work ethic is deeply rooted in everything they do. 

In my opinion (just my two cents), this is "in spite of", not "because of". There are also excellent teachers who doesn't need to make cry the pupil to teach him/her. And there are also unpleasant teachers who act like coaches but they really know little about piano and they usually destroy some pupils' lifes for nothing.

Crying doesn't necessarily mean that there is mistreatment.  Sometimes it's a sign that the individual's guard has come down and that can be an opportune moment to take everything to a new level.  So, crying aside, I think what you mean is that there is mistreatment of a pupil vs. not mistreatment of the pupil, but I still maintain that the category of a pupil not being mistreated is sometimes very broad.  It can involve some difficult issues, similarly to parenting.  Similarly to an artist needing to dig for interpretation in a piece or style, an artistic teacher may spend some time digging to find a student's learning spot.  And, that may be variable from one session to the next.  And, btw, athletic coaches come in various mannerisms, too.  A couple of my athletic coaches held me together in my adolescent years, and they knew it then and they know it now (though one of them has passed away prematurely since three years ago).  They were kind and compassionate people but also pushed me and saw more in me than I could at the time, but who also cared about me as a person.  They also got mad sometimes.  That is very different from a certain other kind of coach, which I also had.

Million dollar question. It's not easy at all. I found mine by chance (after years of awful and useless time losing with awful teachers)

Perhaps mainly mismatched rather than awful.

Absolutely not! (in my opinion). The good pupil knows what he/she wants. It's not necessary to brake him/her down to make him/her know what his/her objectives are.

Similarly to my first response, this may or may not be true.  What we want changes and sometimes it depends very much on what we think is possible.  Sometimes what the student wants is very scary to admit and is kept secret for various reasons.  Now, that can be some tricky grounds.

[mcdiddy1]

There are probably right and wrong ways to do every approach. I have a had a great deal of teachers but the very top teachers I ever had did make me cry and I can say I grew a great deal from them. I think the big difference is why I cried. This is the situation.

I am a fairly advanced player and I picked a piece that I loved, Brahms Intermezzo in A major that was fairly simple. I was playing it for a group class and she stopped me in the middle of my playing, My expectations were fairly high for the my performance of the piece but when I started playing , whether it was neves or whatever I was not playing it nearly as accuaratly as I could have. She stopped me in the middle of the performance and basicly said something that she knows I could play this much better and I would have another opportunity. I left and cryed at first because I was mad at her for interupting my performance but then quickly turned it on myself for not reaching the standards that I had set for myself.

It was really a turning point in my playing because I took my preparation much more seriously because I had new standards to reach she had for me and I had for myself. I learned I didnt have to settle for mediocre playing and what it really takes to be prepared for presenting music. It had a happy ending with me playing for a masterclass and for the school very successfully and in general my playing improved a great deal. It was a similliar situation with my other teacher. Of course teachers that make students cry just to hurt or make them feel bad about themselves is unmotivating but when you feel sad because you didnt live up your own standards that is something I feel is usefull and indirectly have done to students to great results.

As far as jumping grades and pieces, I have learned the hard way that skipping steps often does not work. You will have to learn the basics anyways and it makes things more confusing and difficult.  It you want to change methods and start fresh that is something different. I often switch kids from Alfred to Faber immediatly because Faber moves beyond C position and to start fresh and not allow whatever difficulties they had from the old book follow them.

[asianpianoer]

Similarly to my first response, this may or may not be true.  What we want changes and sometimes it depends very much on what we think is possible.  Sometimes what the student wants is very scary to admit and is kept secret for various reasons.  Now, that can be some tricky grounds.

yeah i guess some goals are scary to admit such as if you want to be number one when it looks like you are hardly anyone at the moment

[m1469]

yeah i guess some goals are scary to admit such as if you want to be number one when it looks like you are hardly anyone at the moment

Number one, eh?  Didn't know there was such a thing.

[asianpianoer]

Number one, eh?  Didn't know there was such a thing.

I just was using that as an example.. I just meant like famous.

[keypeg]

I just was using that as an example.. I just meant like famous.

Some people who are famous know how to market themselves, or have someone who knows how to  market them.  Some people who are excellent musicians may stay in the shadows undiscovered.  It's a lot better to simply want to learn to do everything well, so that you can use those tools for your own musical voice.  It is your own personal journey.  If you think in terms of "number one" even metaphorically then you are skimming the surface.

[pianoplayjl]

No , I don't think so because I reckon a student's emotion is very important. But, on the other hand if you believe a student has a high potential there is noo reason to not push them.

[keypeg]

I don't know if I have ever really paid attention to the title before: "push students, jump grades".  I would think that a teacher who jumps grades is the opposite of a teacher who pushes students, taking them seriously.  That's more in the line of giving the illusion of progress while leaving out important things.

[pianoplayjl]

One of the things I notice is everytime I break down during lessons I always think I'm never going to accomplish anything. the next week later there is a huge improvement. So I think a teacher pushing a student is part of a natural learning process,  a way to get a student to learn better and play better.

[cjp_piano]

asianpianoer -

What is it you actually want? What exactly are you looking for? Do you want pushed? Do you want to skip grades?

I see/hear many students who skip grades, they work on a piece that's really difficult for them, it takes maybe 1 year or 2, and then they play it for every competition, recital and festival. But stick a new piece of music in front of them and they can't even play one measure!

I judged a festival a few times and noticed the SAME student playing the SAME piece, once in 2008 and again in 2010!! Granted, it was better the second time, TWO years later!

[asianpianoer]

i find it hard to express myself in words

grades are hardly something to measure to

and yes i know what u mean by a student playing the same piece many times i have that experience with my peers .. .but in my case it hardly improved

and @pianoplayjl
THAT"S SO TRUE... everytime i feel like S@#$ in a lesson ... the next week there's a massive improvment

[pianoplayjl]

I feel so jealous when students get to jump grades. One of my friends was in in grade 10 school and she was only in 5th grade piano. She jumped 6th and went to 7th. She's probably trying to play catchup although she's a good pianist herself. Also, some people only do 1 exam every 2 grades while I'm forced to do an exam for every grade. I managed to pass each time which was good, considering I'm a S@#%y pianist.
I used to break down more often when I was little and sometimes towards exams. During that period my pieces feel like getting nowhere And somehow in the last few weeks it just manages to come together.

[cjp_piano]

Also, some people only do 1 exam every 2 grades while I'm forced to do an exam for every grade.

Why are you forced? Does your teacher force you? Parents? Exam system?

[pianoplayjl]

Probably my teacher insisted. He knew I'd come out Ok. I'm nervous as hell as I go into exams.