Why is there a natural symbol in Mendelssohn Op. 19 no. 6 bar 3?

[lars_o]

I'm afraid this is just me being not so good at music theory...

As the subject suggests, I don't understand why there is a natural sign in front of the F in bar 3 in the "Venetian Gondola Song" by Mendelssohn? The key-signature doesn't have a flat (nor a sharp) for the F and there are no other accidentals before the natural. So why would he place the natural there?

Thanks for your help!

[pianist1976]

That's a warning accidental to ensure that nobody will play an F# by inertia, as a result of the usually raised seventh grade in the minor scales.

[stevebob]

That's just bizarre, especially given that the left hand's simultaneous octave on F bears no such warning sign.

For what it's worth, the natural symbol in question isn't present in all editions.  The edition of Sternberg published by Schirmer doesn't have it.

[lars_o]

Hah! So it's a warning intended for people that know more about music theory (minor scales) then me. From the two flats I am able to tell that it has to be two fifth counterclockwise from C-maj/A-min making it Bb-maj/G-min but after that I'm lost - I just looked at my scales cheat-sheet and indeed, both harmonic and melodic G-min have an F#

Thanks for the explanation!

BTW. since you wrote "usually raised 7th in the minor scales" - on what occasions wouldn't the 7th be raised in a minor scale?

[stevebob]

The seventh would not be raised in the natural minor scale or in the descending melodic minor scale.

[lars_o]

Thanks!

Do you guys know about a good sort of guide-book/tutorial (preferably on-line) I might want to look into in order to improve my knowledge about theory? Something that uses real-word examples would be great...

[pianist1976]

Walter Piston's Harmony is, I think, a very good book of functional tonal harmony, written in a non cryptic language and it comes with several music examples. (but it's not either brief nor online but, in my opinion, it's worth the money and space it costs).

EDIT AND ADD: There's also an excellent harmony book by Diether de la Motte which is thinner (almost a pocket book). But the methodology is a bit different because instead of roman grades (I, II, IV, VII and so on) it uses the terminology by Hugo Riemann. Very recommendable also.

[lars_o]

Tanks again. Will check them out. With German being my native language De La Motte may be a good choice

[keypeg]

I was at that point only a few years ago.  The best way to understand theory is probably to work through it rather than only read about it.  It's a huge topic, and it doesn't help that music has evolved in stages and that it continues to evolve.

I imagine that the piece you are playing has an F# somewhere in the measures before it.  A practiced ear will expect that F# to still be there later on - it's not so much "known" theory as patterns that are sensed.

The Western music we know best (probably) has a constant interplay between harmony and melody.  When you hear a melody in C major, you expect B to lead to C.  When it comes at the end of a song or phrase you have a strong sense of completion - it "has" to end on C or maybe E or it feels unfinished.  Those same notes are part of the V7-I cadence.  Melody is the horizontal movement while chords are the vertical movement that gives the "harmonic motion" - they are interlinked and part of the same thing.

In major scales, the note below the tonic is a half step from the tonic (B to C).  This creates a strong movement toward C.  In a natural minor scale (G minor) this is a whole step (F to G) but by sharping the F (F# to G) you get the strong movement to the tonic.  It creates "tonality" - a sense of a tonal center at G.   Another thing affected is your chord.  The dominant chord is a major triad with a minor 7.  So for G minor this would be D F# A C (hence raising the F to F#).

The composer has to consider other things.  We start with the "natural minor" scale:
G A Bb C D Eb F G
so now we decide to sharp F# = what we call "harmonic minor"
G A Bb C D Eb F# G
But there are now 1 1/2 steps = an augmented 2nd (sounds like minor 3rd) from Eb to F#.  This was frowned on during some periods, and it creates a "foreign Oriental sound".  So to fix it, we can raise the Eb as well, and this gives us the "melodic minor - ascending"
G A Bb C D E(nat) F# G.

Every time we adjust one of those notes, we also affect the chord that contains those notes, and that also does something to chord progression (how one chord flows into the next one, and the feeling and movement that gives).

This is a bit of what is behind the notion of harmonic, natural, melodic minor.

[stevebob]

I imagine that the piece you are playing has an F# somewhere in the measures before it.  A practiced ear will expect that F# to still be there later on - it's not so much "known" theory as patterns that are sensed.

A closer look at the graphic might be warranted.

[keypeg]

A closer look at the graphic might be warranted.

Can you explain?

[stevebob]

Can you explain?

Your conclusion concerning the significance of the superfluous accidental ("I imagine that the piece you are playing has an F# somewhere in the measures before it.  A practiced ear will expect that F# to still be there later on") was based on a misapprehension of its context:

I don't understand why there is a natural sign in front of the F in bar 3 in the "Venetian Gondola Song" by Mendelssohn? The key-signature doesn't have a flat (nor a sharp) for the F and there are no other accidentals before the natural.

[goldentone]

Lars, I believe this is simply the case of a publisher's mistake, as Stevebob pointed
to other editions that do not have the F naturalized.

[keypeg]

Your conclusion concerning the significance of the superfluous accidental ("I imagine that the piece you are playing has an F# somewhere in the measures before it.  A practiced ear will expect that F# to still be there later on") was based on a misapprehension of its context:

I can't know it's context.  There are only about 5 measures there.  I wrote *if* as a guess because I don't know.  In those cases where an F# was previously used, we often see a courtesy natural sign later.  It's something know, but I wouldn't know whether it applies here which apparently it doesn't.

If there is something to be understood in the music that was posted then I would have appreciated knowing it, because I am also a student, and am also learning.  So is there something?

[lars_o]

Well, it's the first line of the piece so there's no f# before this. However, I played around with the scale and chrd progression as you described, keypeg, and I think I can hear why one might want to expect an F# there. So, I wouldn call it an error but rather an editorial choice (which I couldn't appreciate due to my lack of experience)

Thanks again for the great explanations!

[stevebob]

I can't know it's context.  There are only about 5 measures there.  I wrote *if* as a guess because I don't know.  In those cases where an F# was previously used, we often see a courtesy natural sign later.  It's something know, but I wouldn't know whether it applies here which apparently it doesn't.

If there is something to be understood in the music that was posted then I would have appreciated knowing it, because I am also a student, and am also learning.  So is there something?

Yes, I think there is.  Although you claim you "can't know” the context, the extract provided is unmistakably the beginning of the piece.  The indications are the typical ones used in music engraving:  the time signature, the tempo designation, and the opus number over on the right.  Also, this is not an obscure or unidentified item; it's one of Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words, and public domain editions of the entire composition are freely available on the internet.

[keypeg]

Thanks, Stevebob.  I didn't know to look for that.   Now I know, and it seems obvious after reading.

[stevebob]

You're welcome.