Jazz Improvisation

[shadowzerg]

  I wish to learn Jazz Improv but don't know exactly where or how to start. I've been playing for a little while now (Year and 3 months) and can Improv pretty well for the little time I have been playing (I think anyway, I'll record an improv if anyone wishes to evaluate it). I've seen many church pianists play and their play doesn't seem to be structured (Looks quite random actually) but sounds amazing. Most of these people can't read sheets at all and manage it with relative ease (It appears anyway..).
 
  Jazz is so different from classical which is why I don't really know where to begin with it so some suggestions would be highly appreciated. I just wish to know a steady process or method that will allow to improv with a "structured" jazz idiom (Possible?). Some explanation on the improvisational Jazz process would be much appreciated as well. Thanks in advance.

[casaet]

The best way to start learning any kind of music is to do a lot of listening. But it is not possible to answer your question unless you tell us what kind of jazz you are listening to, and what style you would like to play.
casaet

[shadowzerg]

I didn't know there were different kinds of jazz haha. I've heard a lot of Kapustin but o wouldn't know how to classify that. I'm really focusing on freedom and a new style of improv with some classical structure(possible?)

[casaet]

shadow.  I think I get your point. The important thing is improvisation, and I can understand that, since the only thing I am good at, in any style of music, is improvisation.  Improvisation is a very personal thing, and some jazz musicians were and are masters of the art. The same with Bach and other masters of classical music.
Nothing else to do than get going and find your own methods and your own style.
casaet

[xander1984]

Have you mastered 2-5-1 progressions in all keys?
I personally think this is the most important stuff at the beginning.

[piano_channeller]

Hello,
I'm new to the forum and was drawn to your thread. This is my lengthy and ever so slightly hubristic response:

It sounds like you're really looking for a way to incorporate some jazz vocabulary into your own improvisations. In my view the easiest way to do this would be to learn some basic jazz theory and some of the more well known jazz standards, either from real books or recordings.

To me, straight ahead jazz is less about improvisation and more about learning to play in a particular style. Why do I say this? Well, when I was about 15 I could already improvise fluently and play pop songs by ear. So I foolishly assumed that this meant that I would be able to play jazz. Like many other people I was under the impression that jazz was all improvised. Jazz musicians often don't like to dispel this notion because it makes them look more talented and spontaneous then they actually are, in many cases. So it was a shock for me when I sat down with the school jazz band and found that the stuff I was improvising over the top sounded wrong against the group and didn't fit with the jazz idiom at all. This was because, at that point, I hardly knew any of the rules or theory (and I didn't swing). Sure some musicians are able to absorb these rules by ear with no reading or formal training but rest assured that these rules are still there and can be learned by anyone if they so wish. Playing jazz standards doesn't offer much creative freedom to my mind (speaking as someone who came to jazz having already learned to freely improvise) but it will give you  lots of new ideas and inspiration which you can feed into your own music. I'm guessing this is more what you're after anyway, am I right?

Where to start?

1. Straight Ahead Jazz
This website lists the most recorded jazz standards here: https://www.jazzstandards.com/compositions/index.htm
Assuming that this idea of what constitutes “jazz” fits in with your own, “Autumn Leaves” at number eleven on the list is not too hard and is particularly instructive in the use of the circle of 5ths and therefore a good place to start once you've learned your 2-5-1 chord progressions in every key (as xander1984 has already mentioned). This is essential.

Need help with your 2-5-1s? I've attached my awesome 2-5-1 chart, for root, 3rd, 7th voicings, in all 12 keys (technically I probably should have included F# Major alongside Gb Major). LEARN THESE VOICINGS, they are the building blocks for everything else. “All the Things You Are”, at number two, in a similar vein goes through slightly more key changes and would be another good one.

2. Modal Jazz
Download “So What” by Miles Davis from the album “Kind of Blue”, use the D dorian mode (all white notes) and play around with these chord voicings: https://www.grahamenglish.com/images/so_what_scale.gif.
Done.  

3. Blues
Blues is a big part of the jazz vocabulary. Blues scales and theory are fairly straight forward compared to jazz, probably best just to sit back, listen and absorb. Ray Charles' early blues recordings (“Someday”, “Losing Hand”) might be a good place to start. I learned to play the blues from listening to Led Zeppelin!

Too much info? Ah well. I could go on and on! Hope this helps anyway.

I'd be very interested to hear more about what sort of jazz you've been listening to. If you can pin it down I might be able to give a more focused response. I don't know much about Kapustin, I've only just heard about him, mainly thanks to this forum.  

[shadowzerg]

WELL! Thanks you guys!! Honestly I haven't heard much Jazz ( I can't really recognize the idiom honestly. I just generally think that if it's not classical it must be jazz/blues/pop or something ) I think...piano_channeller...You said that you could go on and on. Well please do! Your post was highly helpful and I never knew about the 2-5-1 chordal progression. I'll definitely have to look into that. I want to post an improv so I think I'll go record myself doing one in Eb right now(Soon after this post anyway). I just want to know what category it falls in in terms of music(And maybe a small evaluation of it since I don't know how good/bad it is ). It might already be jazzy or highly classical or some type of mix. I don't really know because I just hear in my head and play whatever sounds nice to me.

Thanks for helping me to start on this road. I really do enjoy the "freedom" jazz seems to hold and so this journey is much needed for "this" artist as art is (supposed to be) freely expressive. Not to say that classical isn't  !

Some of the jazz I've been listening to (I think) is Joe Hisaishi(?). Most of his pieces sound extremely jazzy like the twilight shore for instance which can be easily found on YouTube. Thanks for the awesome chart.

[shadowzerg]

Okay guys, heres the vid! I was kinda all over the place huh ? Ah well, I tried haha. Maybe you guys can enjoy and give some tips on how to add a bit of the jazz idiom into it(Or maybe some better chordal progressions....anything to help me grow improvisationally will be useful )

[piano_channeller]

That was nice, kudus for uploading your own playing. You're easily good enough to start working on some jazz progressions. The style I find quite hard to categorise, a while ago it might have come under the heading pop but these days it is just as likely to be described as classical. The rhythms you introduce near the end definitely gives it a pop feel though. There's a touch of minimalism and also a slight Eastern flavour which put me in mind of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGs_vGt0MY8

I think if you want to add a bit of jazz colour to your playing you would need to make much greater use of the upper extensions of the harmony. There are already hints of this in your right hand melodies, which is good, but the underlying harmony contains only roots, 3rds and 5ths, and doesn't include any 7ths or 9ths. Stop me if I'm getting too technical. The Joe Hisaichi piece you mentioned uses a lot of 7ths and 9ths in the harmony (and also has many progressions based on 2-5-1), which is partly why it sounds more jazzy. Try to experiment with some added 7ths and 9ths. So for Cm that would be a chord containing C-Eb-G-Bb-D, in any order you can get your hands around.

Also, your chords in this video mostly move up and down the keyboard in step, ie. Cm, Bb, Ab, Gm, Fm etc. This is fine but doesn't take advantage of all the possibilities of these chords and how they can move. Learning 2-5-1 progressions will help you to move round the circle of 5ths and hopefully open up new harmonic possibilities, especially with regard to the resolution of 7ths into 3rds.

I would also suggest that you experiment with switching the roles of your hands and putting the melody in the LH and harmony in the RH.

That's all I'm going to say for now as I appear to be in danger of writing a whole book on jazz theory. There are plenty of those about already. I hope I haven't overloaded you with technical information. Please feel free to ask about anything I've written. I hope others will feel free to pick apart what I've written, if it turns out to be rubbish.  

[shadowzerg]

Wow, thanks! To be honest I really don't understand what I'm actually doing when I'm improvising. I don't think, "okay switch to Gm7 Harmonize the right bring out that underlying melody...hmm..9th chord would be nice here." My though process on the subject is MUCH more simplistic. It's more like, "hmm...that sounds nice"(Hearing in my head) and play. Minimalism huh  . Tell me more about that(Please and thank you )!

I think if you want to add a bit of jazz colour to your playing you would need to make much greater use of the upper extensions of the harmony. There are already hints of this in your right hand melodies, which is good, but the underlying harmony contains only roots, 3rds and 5ths, and doesn't include any 7ths or 9ths.

That sounds awesome but I'm not entirely sure how to achieve this(Self taught so I have little Music Theory. Everything is from the net and talking to musicians). Btw, I never thought to play 9ths..HMM!

Also, your chords in this video mostly move up and down the keyboard in step, ie. Cm, Bb, Ab, Gm, Fm etc. This is fine but doesn't take advantage of all the possibilities of these chords and how they can move. Learning 2-5-1 progressions will help you to move round the circle of 5ths and hopefully open up new harmonic possibilities, especially with regard to the resolution of 7ths into 3rds.

Yes, the LH. Honestly the repetition of it bores me but it seems that the general populace don't even notice the same constant chords being playing. I would so love to add some spice to it. I was playing around with the intervals on the chart you posted earlier today and LOVED the harmonies! I'm not entirely sure on how to use it (Safely/correctly) though.

I would also suggest that you experiment with switching the roles of your hands and putting the melody in the LH and harmony in the RH.

Ah, yes! I've been wanting to but it's kind of difficult to think like that on the fly(for me anyway). I will definitely try though.

I hope I haven't overloaded you with technical information.

Trust me, that is SO not possible! I'm truly enjoying this flow of information you're providing me with. It pains me thinking of the wait I'll have to endure to see more tomorrow! And I just thought of something that would really interest me(and probably a lot of the board too). Would it be possible for you to post a vid of you improvising or possibly displaying uses for the 2-5-1 progression? By the way, a detailed explanation on the 2-5-1 progression would be GREAT!!

Thank you so much for the info man. I truly do appreciate this  .

[piano_channeller]

I won't always be able to keep up this rate of information flow.  Hopefully others will add to it. I'll be going away soon and won't have regular access to the internet for a few weeks. However, I'll try and do another detailed reply tomorrow.

In the mean time:

Minimalism huh  . Tell me more about that(Please and thank you )!

Minimalism has been around for a long time in art and music. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimalist_music. It's usually much simpler harmonically then jazz or classical. The piece I had in mind was this one, by Philip Glass, which you may have heard before:

Not really my cup of tea that one, too drawn-out and repetitive for my liking, but it's popular with some of my students.

[shadowzerg]

Thanks. That piece was indeed highly repetitive but it sounds nice. So I understand minimalism now. My cousin introduced me to this one a while back:

&feature=related

Looking forward to tomorrow's reply.  

[piano_channeller]

Wow, thanks! To be honest I really don't understand what I'm actually doing when I'm improvising. I don't think, "okay switch to Gm7 Harmonize the right bring out that underlying melody...hmm..9th chord would be nice here." My though process on the subject is MUCH more simplistic. It's more like, "hmm...that sounds nice"(Hearing in my head) and play.

That's a good process, I'd stick with it.  It's good to work on theoretical things in isolation from time to time though as they can open up many new possibilities. I didn't understand what I was doing when I started out and to this day I improvise at my best when I'm not thinking technically and in some sense "don't know what I'm doing".

That sounds awesome but I'm not entirely sure how to achieve this(Self taught so I have little Music Theory. Everything is from the net and talking to musicians). Btw, I never thought to play 9ths..HMM!

Experiment! That's all I can say; 9ths, flat 9ths, sharp 9ths, 11ths, 13ths...... but also:

I was playing around with the intervals on the chart you posted earlier today and LOVED the harmonies! I'm not entirely sure on how to use it (Safely/correctly) though.

Learn these basic three-note voicings on the chart, thoroughly, first. Listening carefully all the time. It'll take a while but it'll be worth it. Internalize the sound and the feel of these chords and you'll gradually be able to use them however you want to.

Also, with regards to the chart, see how many patterns you can spot. There are many, some more obvious then others. Are there any chords that repeat for example? It might help if I post a blank chart (no chord labels, see attached). You can use it to help you check that you can recognize all the chords. This is all information that needs to be memorized anyway.

Note: the awesome II-V-I chart can be played vertically. Try starting at bar 5 (measure 5) and then playing the bar immediately below it on the 2nd line, then the 3rd line etc.

By the way, a detailed explanation on the 2-5-1 progression would be GREAT!!

How much musical theory do you already know? That'll help me to give a better explanation. 
For now, try to get familiar with the sound of 2-5-1 (every 2 bars on the chart is a 2-5-1 progression, just in case you hadn't already figured that out) and then see if you can hear it in being used in pieces of music. "Twilight Shore" by Joe Hisaishi, which you mentioned, has a few good examples, mostly later on in the piece.

"Autumn Leaves" - Youtube mixtape
This song, as I've already mentioned, uses a lot of II-V-Is (and the circle of 5ths). It was the first piece I learned when I went for jazz lessons. There are thousands of recorded versions of this tune. My jazz piano teacher gave me a mixtape of "Autumn Leaves" recordings when I started out, so this is what I'm going to do for you, albeit in youtube form!

To get a feel for how the original melody goes, without too much embellishment, I would recommend this Nat King Cole version:

Nat Cole's version is in Dm. Usually when jazz musicians play this tune they play it in Gm . Here is a more modern take on the tune with the chords written out underneath:
https://www.jazztheorylessons.com/2009/02/autumn-leaves-chord-progression/
All the chords you need to play through this tune are on the II-V-I chart (you can ignore the flat 5ths and 9ths to begin with and just play basic voicings ie. Am7 instead of Am7b5 and D7 instead of D7b9). This website has loads of good info on jazz theory and has the advantage of a comments section for each of the articles, which also often provides further insight.

Another essential interpretation is this one by Cannonball Adderley, featuring Miles Davis (also in Gm):

This is a recent one that I've found. It's a solo piano interpretation in Gm. The tune is barely recognizable but it's a beautiful version and the pianist has actually taken the time to show us what notes he is playing on a piano chart at the bottom. It's quite advanced stuff but very instructive:

Can't really leave the Gm versions without mentioning this one with Michel Petrucianni on piano:

However, my favourite version from the mixtape is this obscure Dudley Moore one which, by a happy coincidence, has recently been uploaded to youtube. It's in Bm and it's a riot :

Thank you so much for the info man. I truly do appreciate this  .

You're welcome. 

[shadowzerg]

How much musical theory do you already know? That'll help me to give a better explanation.  Smiley

Hmm, well it's difficult to answer that question because it's a lot and a little(To me anway). If you asked in a list format it would be much easier to answer.(I.E. Do you know what a major triad is, minor 3rd...etc). For now I can say that there's not much I "see" on sheet music other than the notes, rhythms, ornaments, and musical vocab(weird I know but I mean like, mp, ffz, presto, largo, etc.).

My jazz piano teacher gave me a mixtape of "Autumn Leaves" recordings when I started out, so this is what I'm going to do for you, albeit in youtube form!

Thanks!    Also, thanks for the jazz theory site. I have to say, my GOD the instrumental version(With Keith Jarret) of Autumn Leaves was GREAT! It was "melt my heart" good...Oh I can't wait till I can do that haha. Upon further looking on the site it truly is awesome...thanks again!

The Cannonball Adderley version was just...ahh....You've opened a new realm of music for me. My heart has been touched on this day(And I mean that in the most manliest of ways haha). This music is just so good! I honestly don't see why people have classical and jazz "wars." I equally enjoy both.

I entered into a trance like state of tranquility as I listened to the piano solo version(Huge sighs..real calming mood). God, I'd love to improv on this theme...I'll do so one day and send it to you(piano_channeller) if I'm able(stick around haha).

Okay, the piano one with Michel Petrucianni was great. So far it seems like you posted these links with a steady scale up of how good they sound(to you at least-just trying to keep things opinionated here). I really love how many interpretations this theme has adopted. I think I'll do one next month or so(whenever I feel I'm capable) and do another two years later as a small experiment. Just to kind of see my improvement and offer two very different and new interpretations.

WOW! Dudley Moore's version was a riot indeed! Such a vastly different take! I found myself bobbing to the theme unconsciously(Until I consciously noticed it anyway ). I actually like obscure music...one of my many quests as a musician is to bring some of the obscurities to light. Preferably on stage but YouTube can be a fair enough venue...for now anyway. Thanks for the various links sir. This is just absolutely awesome. Now I just have to learn how to use it all and I'll be on my way. Thanks for paving the road for me! Any other "signs" you can offer me on my path will be much appreciated. Thank you SO MUCH! 

[piano_channeller]

Other "signs" from me will have to wait as I'm going away for a while. I'll check back in in the new year. Good luck. 

[shadowzerg]

Okay thanks! Until then.

[mcdiddy1]

You have nice classical improve. It you wanted to jazz it up, you could start by

increasing the amount of space between the notes
adding some tension filled harmonies ( 9ths, 7ths, 13s,)
playing more blocked chords in the left hand  using comping techniques
play with a beat( many keyboards have a beat you can play with)
learn some licks to through in there ( you have to listen to jazz you want to emulate)
throwing in some slides- sliding up chromatically , things like that

[marioshand]

Jazz is like life, you don't know what will happen in the next minute, it's based on improvisation.....But try to be a little bit more "dissonant", this word is sometimes negative, but in jazz, it's a quest, dissonance is a very interesting quest, to get a richer atmosphere....

[becky8898]

Hi Shadow. improv playing or playing jazz is very different depending if your playing solo or in a group. If your playing solo you can pretty much do what you want, but if your in a group you need to stay with them . To me Jazz which is one kind of improv is like walking thru the woods. You see a beautiful sight and walk off the path to explore it. The real secret is to get back on the path smoothly after your done.  Listen to the jazz greats and no matter how far out they get , they always get back on the main path.  All the posters here are right, there are plenty of rules to learn, but great improvisation  is knowing when to break the rules. Learn the rules first and then feel free to explore your own ideas.  You can learn the rules in a book, or use your ear.

Cheers, Becky

[shadowzerg]

You can learn the rules in a book, or use your ear.

Thanks becky8898 . Could you tell me what some of these rules are? I'm solo for now by the way and would prefer to play that way until I get a little more mastery of the jazz idiom.

[drorperl]

In a nutshell....

The best book I know of that can introduce jazz piano in the best way is:

jazz piano book by mark levine

check it out...I think that if you'll seat down and practice this stuff it can really open the door to jazz piano world for you. 

The other thing...people above mentioned listening ! I strongly agree. Get familiar with some Jazz Pianists works...(not only pianists...but definitely as a pianist I'll say...start from there)
In the mark levine book he's naming a lot of the best things to listen to as well...


good luck..i'm sure you'll have fun





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Dror Perl. Pianist, Composer, Teacher.

https://www.sheerpiano.com/

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