Cross rhythms in Chopin Nocturne 9/1 in Bb minor

[brogers70]

Does anyone have suggestions for how to learn the 11 vs 6 and 22 vs 12 cross rhythms in the opening of Chopin's Bb minor Nocturne? For 3 vs 4, 4 vs 5, 3 vs 5 I just figure it out mathematically and practice beating the pattern with two hands until I start to feel it as a cross rhythm rather than an abstract pattern. That has worked well. But I can't manage that for 11 vs 6.

How have you learned this? (1) Just feel it and go with the flow? (2) Start as 4 vs 2 4 vs 2 and 3 vs 2 and then try to loosen it up a bit? (3) Figure out which order the notes fall in in the two hands without worrying about exactly which 1/66th of a half measure they fall on? (4) Listen to a recording again and again until you get the sound in your head and then imitate it? (5) something else?

I love this piece and this rhythm problem is the biggest obstacle for me, so any suggestions would be really appreciated.

[stevebob]

This is what Eleanor Bailie recommends in Chopin: A Graded Practical Guide:

There are various ways of grouping the notes through bb. 2 and 3, and each pianist will find their own preferred way ....  Join your chosen RH grouping in pencil to coincide with the relevant LH quavers and then, when the sequence is thoroughly absorbed, the groupings can be more loosely merged to create the most eloquent and natural-sounding effect.  In all instances of these 'free' runs, it is essential that the RH is subject to the rhythmic and musical shape of the LH – thus, while a degree of rubato may be both necessary and desirable, the LH will slacken or increase speed in a rhythmic and not random manner ....  A slight 'drawing out' at the beginning of each run, and slight speeding up during its course, create a natural and free effect.

(Emphasis in original.)

I hope this helps.

[brogers70]

This is what Eleanor Bailie recommends in Chopin: A Graded Practical Guide:

(Emphasis in original.)

I hope this helps.

Thanks very much for posting that. It is helpful indeed.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

:O I struggled with that part all of September!
I tried to play the whole run in one beat with the metronome, guess, divide it into smaller polyrhythms.... it just drove me nuts. Rhythms really aren't my thing.
So I did it in a not-so smart way- mathematically. My teacher laughed when I showed her what I did.
I'm not recommending that you use it, just saying it worked for me.

First I practiced playing hands separately obviously and all that. Then I played 2 notes in the right hand for every left hand note and a triplet at the end, just so I was familiar with where the notes were.
Then I divided the tuplet up... which is the not so intelligent part
For the 11:6, I added 2 tick marks after every note in the right hand, which divides the right hand up into 33 spaces. I drew a line from the first note of the right hand and the first note in the left hand. Then I counted 5.5 spaces and connected it with the next note in the left hand... then I counted another 5.5 spaces... etc etc. I did the same with the 22:12, only I had to do it twice.

If this doesn't make any sense, I've got a picture... It's jsut that it's late and I'm too tired to find it.
The division wasn't so difficult, it took 2 minutes, but practising still was tough.
The point of me dividing it up isn't to know exactly which 1/66th of the measure to play the notes (obviously!), but just to know generally when the left hand and right hand are played. At first my rhythm was really off and wonky sounding because I was trying to fit the hands together, but eventually I evened it out and it became more natural and free over time. After that I just practised with the metronome to make sure that I was keeping a pulse and not randomly speeding up and slowing down to fit the notes in at the right time.

 

[brogers70]

Thanks thinkgreenlove, I ;like the mathematical approach for the 3 vs 4 or 4 vs 5 sort of polyrhythm. I'm starting this as 11 vs 6 as 4 vs 2 plus 4 vs 2 plus 3 vs 2 as you did. Then I'll either try to just loosen it up non-mathematically, or do something like you did. It's a great piece, though, no? I  love polyrhythms, in general, but this one is tough.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

Yes, its a wonderful piece, definitely worth all the hard work! You wouldn't believe how long I spent sitting at the piano just to learn this piece .... This nocturne has everything  that intimidates me: lots of legato octaves and difficult rhythm.

Out of curiosity, how did you divide it up as 4 vs 2, 4 vs 2 and 3 vs 2?
Drawing out the tick marks didn't take long for me, but they involved a lot of tedious counting, so I'm just wondering.  
Anyway, here's a picture of what I did, tick marks and all.
https://oi55.tinypic.com/2jfakw9.jpg
An unrelated question... how do get the picture and link of the nocturne to appear on the bottom of your post?

[brogers70]

Out of curiosity, how did you divide it up as 4 vs 2, 4 vs 2 and 3 vs 2?
Drawing out the tick marks didn't take long for me, but they involved a lot of tedious counting, so I'm just wondering.  
Anyway, here's a picture of what I did, tick marks and all.
https://oi55.tinypic.com/2jfakw9.jpg
An unrelated question... how do get the picture and link of the nocturne to appear on the bottom of your post?

I treated the first 8 notes of the eleven as 16ths and the remaining three as a triplet - that way there is no crossrhythm until the 3 vs 2 at the end, and 3 vs 2 is an easy one. Once I get comfortable doing it this way, I'll relax the rhythm a bit so that the first 8 notes don't line up so rigidly with the accompaniment (at least that's what I'll try to do).

The picture at the bottom appears automatically when pianostreet recognizes the name of a pice in the title of your post.

[franz_liszt82]

Does anyone have suggestions for how to learn the 11 vs 6 and 22 vs 12 cross rhythms in the opening of Chopin's Bb minor Nocturne? For 3 vs 4, 4 vs 5, 3 vs 5 I just figure it out mathematically and practice beating the pattern with two hands until I start to feel it as a cross rhythm rather than an abstract pattern. That has worked well. But I can't manage that for 11 vs 6.

Hello brogers, can you show me how make 3 vs 4, 4 vs 5, 3 vs 5 cross rhythms? I have difficulty in learn this kind of thing. Thanks.

[brogers70]

Hello brogers, can you show me how make 3 vs 4, 4 vs 5, 3 vs 5 cross rhythms? I have difficulty in learn this kind of thing. Thanks.

Sure, consider 3 vs 5. You practice by tapping your hands separately. Let's say your RH will do 5 and your left 3. Divide a beat into 15ths. Count out loud 1,2,3,4,.....15, pretty slowly. Your right hand will strike as you say 1,4,7,10, and 13, and your left hand will strike as you say 1,6,and 11. Write it out in front of you if it helps. Keep cycling through that until you remember the pattern. Then stop counting out loud. Practice it for a few days whenever you have something to tap your hands on. After a while, instead of thinking of it as a pattern, you should naturally start to feel it as 5 in the right against 3 in the left. Once the pattern is in your mind it's easy to switch hands if you need to.

Of course you can do the same thing for 3 vs 4, 4 vs 5, etc. There may be people who can just put this sort of thing together immediately by practicing hands separate and then just joining them, but I'm not one of those people.