Piano for $10,000

[DarkWind]

I am currently looking for a piano, upright preferably but not necesserarily, that is around the price range of $10,000, give or take around a $1,000. Anyone have any reccomendations?

[donjuan]

For that price, you will be looking at Korean grand pianos and expensive european uprights.  

I cant remember, but in another thread, I thought you mentioned you lived in an apartment in New York. (pls correct me if if I am wrong)

well, if I am right, you should look at the Uprights, because they produce less sound in general and take up less room.  You could afford a Petrof upright which is a VERY nice piano.  It has a smooth renner action and beautiful tone.

Assess your needs -> what do you value in a piano?
donjuan

[DarkWind]

I USED to live in an aparment. Right now I live in a house in Connecticut. What I value most in a piano is good condition, strong sound, great, comfortable keys, and good response. Also, where could I get a Petrof? However, there is a Steinway Piano Galler very near me, about a 10 minute drive. Would you reccomend the Boston or the Essex?

[donjuan]

Petrofs are made in the Czech republic.  I heard about them from a dealer in my city.

Boston and Essex are both very nice pianos, but are both very expensive.  For the price of an Essex Upright, you could get a Yamaha Grand of considerable length.  I havent actually played on either Boston or Essex, but I know they are supposed to be very respectable pianos.

I am having difficulties suggesting great pianos for you, but judging from your values, I would say - Stay away from Kawai.  The sound is poor, the touch is poor - very stiff.  you sound like you really do have your heart set on getting a steinway, but it really is not in your price range.

Since you value comfortable keys and a good response, look for uprights with renner action, or modified renner action.  You wont be able to find any grands in your price range with renner action,

also, check out the local library for a book called "The Piano Book" by Larry Fine.  I found this book especially useful for finding the right name for me.  I ended up going with Yamaha, but in your case, 10 000$ is too much for a Yamaha Upright (If you are going to pay so much for an upright, get a GOOD upright), and not enough for a decent grand.

donjuan

[DarkWind]

Well the Boston/Essex cost anywhere from 10-17,000. It's rather in my price range. Also, what is renner action? And is that Yamaha piano good? I'm willing to go for less, less work and time for me :p. The few Bostons I got to play on needed quite a bit of force to play on, sort of felt like the key landed on mush. That was just one of them, but I didn't get a chance to see the others as the store closed. I can go for say, $12,000 at the most, $10,000 preferably, and anything less than that is still ok with me.

[donjuan]

ok, well you could actually buy the same piano I did!
I have a Yamaha C2 5'8'' grand piano, and I bought it for about 18 000 CANADIAN, so what would that be in US dollars - 12 000? 13 000?  
I love this piano!! It has a great tone, a nice touch, needs little maintenance, what else can I say? It was certainly the best piano for the money.

Renner action is supposed to be the greatest action in the world.  Bosendorfers, Steinways, Bechstein, -all the expensive names use their own version of the renner action.  I love the renner action, but sadly Yamaha doesnt have it.  I know you would like it because it is very comfortable, and allows you to have maximum control of the tone.  I was thinking about buying a Petrof Grand 5'3'' for 20 000 Canadian, because petrof has the renner action, but we decided to go with yamaha for resale value, and it is cheaper and is 5 inches longer.

donjuan

[DarkWind]

Where would I fit it though :p. It's an option, yes. What would you recommend for an upright?

[donjuan]

Well, you could get a REALLY nice upright for the price of my C2.  All I can suggest is to get a hold of a copy of Larry Fines book, and try out the uprights with Renner Action.  I like Petrof because it is within my price range and has all the features I could ask for, but it doesnt sound like you have a dealer near by...

If you really like one of those Essex or Boston uprights, I suggest you go for it--> I have reason to believe it is worth it.
donjuan

[Axtremus]

(donjuan: I don't get it... size for size, how can Petrofs be more expensive than Yamaha's C-series?)

Personal opinion here: As for Renner vs. Yamaha's action -- I don't see Yamaha's as inferior. I played many new Yamaha's and their actions are very good compared to everything else out there. Not all "Renner" branded actions are equal. Renner makes different actions at different quality levels using different spec's from different piano makers at different price points. Yamaha does just find with its own action.

Boston -- sold by Steinway to compete in the mid-price market, but made by Kawai. Get it if you like it, but compare with Kawai's comparable models (i.e., K- and RX-series, similar sizes) first. Size for size, you can usually get Kawais cheaper than you could Bostons.

Essex -- sold by Steinway to compete in the low cost market, but made by Young Chang. Get it if you like it, but compare with similar-sized Young Chang and Pramberger pianos (also made by Young Chang) before you decide.

For up to $10,000 (assuming US Dollar and that you're shopping for a new piano in the US), that's a lot of money for an upright. Go try the Italian Schulz-Pollmann (48" or taller), go try the Yamaha U3 or U5 (52", if you can find it), go try the Kawai K-60 or K-80 (52", if you can find it). Those big Yamaha/Kawai pianos can give you big sound.

For grand piano in the under $12k price range, not many good choices out there. See if you can find the discountinued Weber 5'7" (made by Samick), may be RX-1 or the G(something) series from Kawai. Not even sure if you an get a C1, may be Yamaha's G(something) series might work in that price range. But you should be able to get a pretty good used Japanese piano (10+ years old, perhaps 6 to 6-1/2 foot grand). Small (under 6-foot) Eastern European pianos like Petrofs are also possibilities.

For under $10k, you can definitely get new Chinese-made grand pianos, possibly around 6' in size, plus/minus a few inches. The ones made by DongBei, but branded "Nordiska" or "Hallet Davis" are the more reputable ones I hear people (piano technicians) talk about as being "a cut above the rest of Chiinese pianos." What I've heard is that they need some rather thorough voicing/regulation work after purchase, but should work well after that. (I've never played them myself, just relaying what I've read/heard.)

Play lots of different pianos before you decide.

Words cannot sufficiently describe sound and touch. You won't know what you like until you try lots of different brands/models.

Play lots of different pianos before you decide.

Good luck!

[donjuan]

omg If I wasnt on vacation, I would have responded to this post a LONG time ago.

(donjuan: I don't get it... size for size, how can Petrofs be more expensive than Yamaha's C-series?)

Petrofs can be much better than the C series.  They are made in the Czech Republic, whereas Yamaha sends their pianos to many countries to be made for less labour costs.  I love Petrofs so much- and yes, a 5'3'' Petrof will cost more than a 5'8'' C2.

For grand piano in the under $12k price range, not many good choices out there. See if you can find the discountinued Weber 5'7" (made by Samick), may be RX-1 or the G(something) series from Kawai. Not even sure if you an get a C1, may be Yamaha's G(something) series might work in that price range. But you should be able to get a pretty good used Japanese piano (10+ years old, perhaps 6 to 6-1/2 foot grand). Small (under 6-foot) Eastern European pianos like Petrofs are also possibilities.

I played on Kawai RX Series, and I hated it!!  The action was stiff and the keys were yellow to begin with- they use some new material that emulates ivory, butit feels like and looks like crap.

I also Played on a 6' Yamaha G series and was dissatisfied with it.  The G series is basically a cheaper brand f the C series, made with cheaper woods and less care.  The one I played had a horrible buzzing soundboard, and a bent keybed that made it squeak like a mouse when certain keys are played.  

Personally, I think Samick makes too many pianos, and focusses on Quantity rather than Quality.  If you do choose to go with it, spend a lot of time playing it and see if there are any little problems with it because if they bug you now, they will only get worse and lead to expensive repairs for a piano that is really not worth it.

donjuan

[Axtremus]

donjuan, welcome back.

donjuan wrote: "Petrofs can be much better than the C series. They are made in the Czech Republic, whereas Yamaha sends their pianos to many countries to be made for less labour costs."

With regards to "Petrofs can be much better than the C-series," you are certainly entitled to that opinion. Yes, Petrofs are made in the Czech Republic. Yes, Yamaha have production facilities in Japan, the US, Indonesia, and China. BUT, all the C-series are made in Japan. It is Petrof that enjoys the cheaper labor cost in the Czech Republic, not Yamaha with their entire C-series being made only in Japan. (And, no, "cheap labor" does not necessarily mean "bad piano," and "expensive labor" does not automatically mean "good piano.")

donjuan wrote: "I played on Kawai RX Series, and I hated it!! The action was stiff and the keys were yellow to begin with- they use some new material that emulates ivory, butit feels like and looks like crap."

You hate the Kawai RX series, I like them just fine. Our opinions differ, we have different likes and dislikes, and that's OK.

donjuan wrote: "I also Played on a 6' Yamaha G series and was dissatisfied with it.  The G series is basically a cheaper brand f the C series, made with cheaper woods and less care.  The one I played had a horrible buzzing soundboard, and a bent keybed that made it squeak like a mouse when certain keys are played."

Yes, it is also my understanding that the Yamaha G(something) series are designed to be produced at a lower cost than the C-series, and priced cheaper than the C-series to cater to the lower price market. For what it's worth, I've played a new Petrof II and a new Petrof III about two months ago where the pianos gave out strange high-pitched buzzes and have sticky keys -- while the Yamahas (both c- and G(something)-series) in the same room all played fine! So am I to conclude from that one experience alone that Petrofs are crap? No! It simply means that those two particular Petrofs need a little work by a competent piano technician to get them up to par. I've played many more Petrofs before that one experience and I've seen how good they can be under proper care. Similarly, I have also played some well-cared-for G(something)-series Yamaha grands in the past that performed very well, even the puny GA1E.

donjuan wrote: "Personally, I think Samick makes too many pianos, and focusses on Quantity rather than Quality.  If you do choose to go with it, spend a lot of time playing it and see if there are any little problems with it because if they bug you now, they will only get worse and lead to expensive repairs for a piano that is really not worth it."

Quantity and Quality need not be mutually exclusive. Samick makes many different lines of pianos at different quality levels to compete at different price points. The Samick "World" series and the "Knabe" brand made by Samick are among Samick's better models and more expensive lines of products. (Same could be said of the "Pramberger" line from Young Chang, also from Korea. I'd suggest that DarkWind to also check out the "Prambeger" line, especially the "Pramberger Platinum" series. Special circumstances might bring this line of pianos into your price range. )

[donjuan]

donjuan, welcome back.
You hate the Kawai RX series, I like them just fine. Our opinions differ, we have different likes and dislikes, and that's OK.

sounds good

donjuan

[c1ciprian]

I sell a Steinway & Sons New York upright piano, 52"  Upright Grand, excellent condition, #76,733(1893) Ebonized, 3 pedals, sostenuto pedal(center), $2500, transport included.