\"\"
Piano Forum logo

i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;) (Read 2518 times)

Offline idreamofpiano

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 31
i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
« on: December 20, 2010, 01:58:05 AM »

Offline pianisten1989

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1525
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 09:00:13 PM »
First, do the right rhythm, and the right notes.

Offline demimondegirl

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 09:37:12 PM »
First, do the right rhythm, and the right notes.

Scintillating. This two-post discussion (now three) is a perfect miscrocosm of the progression of most pianists, from alpha to omega.

On post one, you are full of "dreams of piano", perhaps naive, although in the best of all possible ways, eager to to show what you can do, and await unabashed praise, or at least constructive criticism.

800-posts later, you are competent and jaded (based on ingenous replies like above you soak up like a parched sponge, as all young people do) and when you see the childlike wonder you recognize as once being alive in you, instead of politely holding your tongue, you leap (leap!) the opportunity to chuff it out! "Fair's fair, right? It happened to me!" This is the rationale behind hazing in all fraternal institutions, which I guess you could say this site is...

And subtle and merely sarcastic or not, that was a haze...

Offline idreamofpiano

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 31
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 04:59:58 AM »
thank you dear!

Offline idreamofpiano

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 31
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 05:04:08 AM »
@the first reply. what year are you and is piano your major? what would be the correct rhythm? and thank you for the sheet music. but i have the exact copy of what you posted. i will be auditioning in jan. so if the speed is to fast/slow. do tell. nicely. :) thanks.

Offline omar_roy

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 298
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 08:20:11 AM »
As blunt, and amusing, as pianisten1989's statement was, he's right.

Play the right notes.  Play the right rhythms.  Counting and metronomes are your friend, not your enemy.

Whether he's studying music professionally or not is irrelevant.

Listen to some recordings.  Any of the big names will do.  Frederic Lamond is also good.

Offline pianisten1989

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1525
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 11:12:14 AM »
@ Demimondegirl: Eh, huh?


And I was dead serious! Many pianists are "Maybe I don't have very good technique, but at least I play with feeling" when they are unable to play the right notes.. Therefore, they mix with the rhythm, and stuff like that.

The right rhythm is the one he wrote. play first only the melody, and then only the other notes Without the melody. Then One hand each. Then hands together SLOWLY, so slow that you always can tell the next note. Then a bit faster.

And what I study has nothing to do with your playing. And I wasn't the one who posted the music, it's automatic posted on this forum.

Offline idreamofpiano

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 31
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 03:24:04 PM »
i need blunt. nicely lol...i'm too advanced for teachers around here and not advanced(apparently) for college level yet. stuck in a rut. so i was so glad when i found this site!- i have till jan. to get this down. i will start from beginning again. and start out very painfully slow. and post again later next week. thanks!         ;D

Offline pianisten1989

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1525
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 08:36:05 PM »
i need blunt. nicely lol...i'm too advanced for teachers around here and not advanced(apparently) for college level yet. stuck in a rut. so i was so glad when i found this site!- i have till jan. to get this down. i will start from beginning again. and start out very painfully slow. and post again later next week. thanks!         ;D
You are NOT too advanced for teachers.

Offline stevebob

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1133
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 09:26:46 PM »
Scintillating. This two-post discussion (now three) is a perfect miscrocosm of the progression of most pianists, from alpha to omega.

On post one, you are full of "dreams of piano", perhaps naive, although in the best of all possible ways, eager to to show what you can do, and await unabashed praise, or at least constructive criticism.

800-posts later, you are competent and jaded (based on ingenous replies like above you soak up like a parched sponge, as all young people do) and when you see the childlike wonder you recognize as once being alive in you, instead of politely holding your tongue, you leap (leap!) the opportunity to chuff it out! "Fair's fair, right? It happened to me!" This is the rationale behind hazing in all fraternal institutions, which I guess you could say this site is...

And subtle and merely sarcastic or not, that was a haze...

I don't know if you're referring to your own post or to pianisten's as a "haze," but I don't think there's any evidence for the progression you posit "of most pianists, from alpha to omega" (though I don't question  your own experience in that regard).
What passes you ain't for you.

Offline demimondegirl

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #10 on: December 22, 2010, 02:06:05 AM »
I don't know if you're referring to your own post or to pianisten's as a "haze," but I don't think there's any evidence for the progression you posit "of most pianists, from alpha to omega" (though I don't question  your own experience in that regard).

"First, do the right rhythm, and the right notes. "

...this is what he's got? That's about it, huh?

Did he expect this reply, perhaps?

"Wow! And here I thought Liszt meant for Liebestraum to be played incorrectly and at a rhythmical random...thanks for clearing that up! I thought that he called it "Love Dream" ironically, that it is to be played more like a chaotic nightmare! I wish someone had told me this before! What a life saver! Thank you!!"

"First, do the right rhythm, and the right notes. "

I mean, if he had taken the time to add the classic smiley emoticon, it would have made a damn good bumper sticker, but as a post it's insulting, and even worse if was well-intended.

There's really only three explanations:

1. He literally thinks she isn't aware of the difference between correct and incorrect notes or rhythms, and must kindly point these novel concepts out to her if she is ever to progress.

(not likely)

2. He knows that she knows it needs work, and took a little time out of his day to peck a few keystrokes to deliver at best a little inane, unconstructive criticism, and at worst a haze.

(I assumed this at first, hence my post, but now admit it now seems unlikely)

3. He doesn't mean to be cruel, and genuinely desires to help, and has mastered just enough of the basic buzzwords to be able to, but lacks the knowledge to put it elegantly, or in any way that is likely to help. The blind being led by the barely-more-than-blind.

(I'm convinced of this now)

This forces me to "reposit." Great word by the way, I bet you also know a colon from a semicolon!

This is not the progression from alpha to omega, which of course there is "no evidence of..." This is alpha to beta. I assumed he was further along, based on the formidable pieces he plays that the site "automatically" puts in his signature (like he didn't type them somewhere!)

But anybody, even beta-fish, can play formidable pieces un-formidably, and it stands to reason that if he were an omega, a finished artist, he would have acquired (somewhere in the twenty one years after the Berlin Wall's fall, a rather long time to be alive) something to say that would help someone who aspires to be as him, and a novel way to say it!

Something like, I don't know, an inroads to actually play the correct notes and rhythms? If that advice were all it took, we wouldn't have need of pricey teachers, would we? A cheap, tape recorded loop of the words, "get a metronome, and stay with it" would suffice.

Hmm...you may be onto something there, though you may not want to "posit" it in the teaching wing...

So, to pianisten, I am sorry I underestimated you. I merely overestimated you. Won't you forgive me?

And to bob, you noble wagon-circler, I am sorry I disparaged true omega pianists, who, while perhaps iconoclastic, or even blunt (Richter) are never uninformed, or beige. But what do I know? As you have shrewdly assumed, and have no reason to doubt, I never progressed past alpha!

Offline stevebob

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1133
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 02:15:20 AM »
Now that's "scintillating."
What passes you ain't for you.

Offline demimondegirl

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 02:41:22 AM »
If you knows how, fatboy, why don't you tell her? Than it might be so easy for her as well!

Go on, respond! You're only two posts behind pianisten. Next stop Gamma!

Offline stevebob

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1133
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 04:05:36 AM »
If you knows how, fatboy, why don't you tell her? Than it might be so easy for her as well!

Go on, respond! You're only two posts behind pianisten. Next stop Gamma!

In my opinion, your posts are bizarre and snarky.  I don't know what you think you're contributing to these threads, but it doesn't seem constructive.

Also in music there is something called the basics. I would suggest to you to learn them.

That quotation is from one of the other threads, and that, in a nutshell, is my advice to the original poster as well.  We gotta walk before we run, and there's really no way around the fact that this piece is far beyond her ability.
What passes you ain't for you.

Offline pianisten1989

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1525
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #14 on: December 22, 2010, 05:21:51 AM »
Why do you act like this?
If you read some posts down, you'll see my reply again.
And further on: Helping people who says they're too advanced for teachers, but still doesn't get even the rhythms, or notes, right, is not my bag.. You can use all the difficult words as you want, but it's not really doing it for me.

Offline demimondegirl

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #15 on: December 22, 2010, 07:13:09 AM »
Look guys, of course you're both right. I just like to play the contrarian, I guess. I get bold when I am safely anonymous (online) and write as I never speak.

I suppose I just reacted to what I perceived as snobbishness, and then of course responded in kind! I heard words similar to pianisten's once, and it hurt me. This is my deficit, and not the fault of the words. I got irrational, and then became defensive and reactionary when everyone called me on it. Ah well, it's me and not you. I hope I didn't piss you off too badly...

-Kat


P.S. I still think it was a douchey thing to say! But you are definitely not a douchebag. (Wow, I've never said or written that word until just now! Who knows what I'll say next?) Lord knows I admire your pianism, and that of everyone else who has posted. But while great pianists are rare, good ones grow on trees. And no one here is so lofty and great that they're above a little jabbing.

Finally, it's fitting that her post was a youtube clip. On youtube, you can either give praise and a thumbs up, or if you hate it, vote it down and disparage it. But you reserve the right to be indifferent. Why did you not exercise that right? Was it really that important to put her in her place? Her playing wasn't ghastly. You seemed to be incensed more by her overconfidence than by her chops!

The man who wrote Liebestraum was a great supporter of the young composers of his era. If he saw genius, he praised it, and when he saw room for improvement, he gave good advice. But when he saw irredeemable banality he never cut it to shreds. He correctly ignored it!

Offline stevebob

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1133
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #16 on: December 22, 2010, 12:43:04 PM »
I doubt anyone who commented here on the original poster was motivated "put her in her place" because of perceived overconfidence or wished to be cruel or snobbish in any way.  I honestly think you do her no favors by claiming that her playing "wasn't ghastly," because such an assertion compels people to ponder that precise point—and I am certain that many would share the opinion that in fact it was.

Consider that idreamofpiano is planning to use this piece for some sort of an audition next month.  I think that's highly unwise, and I can't imagine any way (short of magic) in which it could be brought to a standard of reasonable correctness in such a short time frame.  Giving her false hopes would, I believe, be unkind, as perhaps she can still attempt to prepare a different piece that is within her capability to present well.  And, under the circumstances, that's what I would urge her to do.
What passes you ain't for you.

Offline demimondegirl

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 05:02:12 PM »
I doubt anyone who commented here on the original poster was motivated "put her in her place" because of perceived overconfidence or wished to be cruel or snobbish in any way.  I honestly think you do her no favors by claiming that her playing "wasn't ghastly," because such an assertion compels people to ponder that precise point—and I am certain that many would share the opinion that in fact it was.

Consider that idreamofpiano is planning to use this piece for some sort of an audition next month.  I think that's highly unwise, and I can't imagine any way (short of magic) in which it could be brought to a standard of reasonable correctness in such a short time frame.  Giving her false hopes would, I believe, be unkind, as perhaps she can still attempt to prepare a different piece that is within her capability to present well.  And, under the circumstances, that's what I would urge her to do.

All of course correct, I suppose. But then, not really. It's your "white man's burden" to steer her straight then, any means necessary? Even if it was true that she was misguided enough to use the piece as is in an audition (which she is not) it is not your duty to save her from herself. Especially if you do it as pianisten did, in a way that is impossible to help, and could quite possibly hurt her  (thank God it did not)? Do you honestly think what he said was worth anything?

Better to think of yourself as a musical doctor. Your job is not so much to create a "musical cure," but more to at least "do no harm." You'll notice I have not been angered enough to post based on any these kind of posts, when they are directed toward older, less potentially fragile people, even though they are all on a par. Who cares in this case? Say what ever the heck asinine ridiculousness you want to those who are above the age of consent. But in this specific, very ad hoc case, just hold your aching tongue and ignore. Even if she has an audition in a month, let her crash. It will force her to reevaluate on her own, and her progress will be more organic. A little failure never killed anyone, though a little well placed discouragement could ensure she never makes another attempt.

But, if you actually have something real to say, and that is at least innocuous, then please God, say it! We're starved for it. If not, just please, for once, tie up the windbag.

"First do the right notes, then right rhythms!" ain't doing anybody no favors either, I assure you.

Offline pianisten1989

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1525
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 06:40:33 PM »
"First do the right notes, then right rhythms!"
That's not what I said. I said "First, do the right rhythm, and the right notes."
The dot in the end is the most important, and that she should correct them at the same time is also important.

Offline demimondegirl

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 07:12:21 PM »
That's not what I said. I said "First, do the right rhythm, and the right notes."
The dot in the end is the most important, and that she should correct them at the same time is also important.

Look, you are absolutely correct. Lord knows you are strong player and I am not, and if that's really all it takes to become strong, it would be insane for me to continue to argue.

I guess I've just continued in this noise because I have admitted to all you accused me of, and you have not even once, none of you, conceded an inch.

Would it hurt? There's no way, it's impossible, that you, or your apologist, actually believe any of your attempts at justification. Change how you respond to absolute newbies, or don't. Whatever. But for God's sake, don't try to convince me, or yourself, that these initial posts (whatever the order, or punctuation) are worth the infinitely small amount of server space they now take up.

I myself will backtrack this one last time:

I have been in the wrong on this, but for the right reasons. Just the same as you.

I don't anymore doubt that you guys are interested to help, but your method betrays you, makes you seem worse than pedantic. I'm no longer mad about it. You are not her teacher, nor her guide, and it is not your duty to dazzle and enlighten her with your wisdom-nuggets.

The whole latter part of this Ménage à trois has been my futile attempts to point out to you both that if you are truly keen on helping out, you might want to tweak your delivery a bit.

This will be my last try.

It's becoming clear to me now, that it's next to impossible to teach a man what he thinks he already knows.

Offline pianisten1989

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1525
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #20 on: December 23, 2010, 08:19:34 AM »
Dude, chill :P

Sometimes I get bored. When I get bored I try to find someone that disagrees with me (and who's, hopefully, get annoyed easily) and then just keep throwing back at them, whatever they said.
I really don't agree with anything you said, but you don't have to take that personal, I disagree with many ppl...

Offline demimondegirl

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
Re: i need suggestions on the way i play liebestraum......;)
«Reply #21 on: December 23, 2010, 09:24:42 AM »
Dude, chill :P

Sometimes I get bored. When I get bored I try to find someone that disagrees with me (and who's, hopefully, get annoyed easily) and then just keep throwing back at them, whatever they said.
I really don't agree with anything you said, but you don't have to take that personal, I disagree with many ppl...

You like to get the goats of people you disagree with? Cool! Me too!!

I clearly have a talent for it, and I'd be happy to give you a few pointers.

You're good, but not too advanced for a teacher!