scales for kids

[ingunite]

Wondering about how other piano teachers approach teaching scales to, say, a ten year old.
I insist on starting on C major scale, one octave, both hands, from the very beginning (it is probably the first thing they learn to play from me), and adding more scales and octaves fairly soon and fast. Also triad chords and arpeggios, of course. My students are able to do it without any unduly difficulties.
However, sometimes I muse about the student's motivation for it. After all, it is not quite the equivalent of learning a "pretty song" satisfaction wise. Of course, I have explained to the students why I ask them to learn and practice scales (hand coordination, mastery of keyboard, learning to use 5 (10) fingers to cover all keys, etc.) and I ask them to play scales at the beginning of each lesson.
But the devil's advocate in me keeps wondering if
1) the young student really has any understanding or appreciation of playing piano scales, and does it only because I insist so, secretly being turned off by it; and
2) is it customary to start kids on the scales that early, to expect them to learn both hands together right away, and do many of you teach this way.

[Bob]

I wouldn't see why not, if they've played through method books and can handle it.

I would really point out in a piece of music that the scale goes with the key signature and all (most) of the notes in the piece are from that scale.  Same with the primary chords if you're including those two.  The chords might be too much for them though. 

I learned scales and primary chords but never really put it together that it had much to do with the music I was playing until later.  Duh on me I guess.

[ingunite]

Thank you Bob, it is an excellent point.
Until you pointed it out, I never thought about relating scales to key signatures of piano pieces (sorry about muddling your thought). I always had to play the scales when I was a student, and they were such a big part of my musical education, I never looked for rationale behind all that work. Never doubted the importance of the scale playing, though.

[lostinidlewonder]

The first scale I teach my students are Bmajor since for the Rh it perfectly defines how the standard fingering should be used. C is a terribly difficult scale even though it is all white notes it feels the worst out of all scales. Personally I have never understood why students need to play scales BH early on. They simply will not come across pieces which demand this type of action, and even later on you don't come across many pieces that request this ability. But of course scales BH is an important technical issue to deal with since changing fingers at different times is always an issue that confuses the beginner and an important skill.
Cmajor scale is good to use to get an idea of the shape that keysignature creates. Often I get students to play a Cmajor scale and add the accidentals of the keysignature to it. This way they get the general shape that the piece plays upon.

[fleetfingers]

Scales are not only good exercises for developing technique, they will become the students' first theory lessons without them even being aware of it. Later, when they read sheet music with key signatures, they will already be familiar with how that key signature looks and feels on the keyboard.

1) the young student really has any understanding or appreciation of playing piano scales, and does it only because I insist so, secretly being turned off by it

Children often don't fully understand nor appreciate the things we teach them...at least not right away. The hope is that later they will. As teachers, we are planting seeds that will eventually sprout and bloom into a deeper understanding of music theory. To make scales more tolerable - even fun for some - I know a teacher who has set up 'challenges' for her students, and they even receive an official award (given at the recital) for each level of challenges they pass. I am not as fun as she is - I simply make my students play a few scales for me at the beginning of the lesson, then we move on to their pieces. 

2) is it customary to start kids on the scales that early, to expect them to learn both hands together right away, and do many of you teach this way.

I don't know what is customary, but I personally don't see any reason NOT to start right away with a ten-year-old. Some of the younger ones might not be physically ready for it yet. My three-year-old is not ready, but I have a couple of six-year-olds, and they handle it just fine. You also mention chords and arpeggios...I have chosen not to have my young ones do them as exercises. They often appear in their pieces, though.

[mcdiddy1]

Well your decision to start with scales that early is your philosophic view which is perfectly valid because scales are fundamentals and kids need to learn them. I personally would not start them on scales because my philosophy is to spark a love for music first and from there they will do pretty much whatever you ask them.

For example after beginning with posture, clapping rhythm, echoing tonal patterns, identifying groups of black keys, finger numbers, singing pitches and all the basics then I teach them a simple song they can play. Success is very motivating and kids get really excited when they can play something the first day. I taught a kid his first lesson the other day and he was begging his mom to listen to the piece he learned( it was Old Mac Donald). I think having that kind of excitement will at least give him a good start into discovering more about music and eventually scales. I think you will find the ideas of mastery of the keyboard, hand coordination, and covering the keys are high on their to do list. Being able to show kids at school, friends, and family they pieces you can play however is.

Your instincts about children being not being interested in scales are dead on , so its up to the teacher to make them fun like saying we are going to play frog scales ( scales staccato) or sticky scales ( legato) or whatever to get them interested in them and actually practice them. Of course they do not know what why you are making them do or why they are doing it but you know and thats most important.

I don't think it is customary to start kids that early on scales because if they come in with a blank knowledge of music and technique being able to remember finger numbers, thumb crossings is difficult for them particularly when doing both hand and especially during the first lesson.

Of course that is your right as a teacher to do that but most modern method books start with simple pieces they can learn and not scales.

[ingunite]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, McDiddy...
I see your point, but personally I prefer the traditional way of starting with the scales early.
Of course, it is easy to say so, because my students have voiced no objections and have no difficulties with the scales (they are not very young, 11+ years old).
And about Old Macdonald & the Co... oh, how that particular tune grates on my nerves and my dainty ears! Why is it every other kid's first tune? For a penny I'll make a solemn public promise not to do it, ever. I'd rather go with "Au Clair de la Lune"... or how about "Jesus Joy of Man's Desiring" - my daughter's first...
Again, I sincerely appreciate everyone's suggestions and replies. 

[mcdiddy1]

Yea I agree...some pieces in my opinion should be banned such as Fur Elise, Canon in D, and  Ode to Joy. They are wonderful pieces but I am sick of teaching them like they are highlights of piano literature and they really aren't that great. Maybe because of over exposure.

[dbmusic]

My best successes have been when I teach holistically, relating the theory to what the student is  currently doing. I never start with scales. Kids learn to talk one word at a time - we don't teach the grammar before we allow them to play with words so I like to treat the language of music the same way. I aim to have a child leave their first lesson able to play something, however simple - but not a scale. As they reach the stage where they're playing pieces using both staves and are ready to take on board a sense of key then we start deconstructing the piece to find out all the exciting ways it was put together! Play the piece and give it a 'wrong ending'. Play a few bars of music in the same key and leave out the last note. Ask the student if they can find it! Introduce the building blocks for the piece - aka the key  - and play the scale. Play the scale hands separately for one octave only ascending and descending. Have them play follow the leader and 'chase' you up the keyboard. Play it with different rhythms/articulations. Have fun with it.............then take the scale in isolation.......
Of course the next thing is that they can easily transpose a simple tune using a scale they have had fun with in a previous lesson. How exciting is that!

[rsp1]

(I know this is an older topic but I thought that I would add my two cents)

I like to teach scales early.  First thing I relate them to is familiar melodies.  The ability to play scales allows easy access to "Joy to the World" and "Away in a Manger".  In this way, they are more than just dry busy work.  Also, besides specific melodies that are made of scales, there are melodies that have a scale as part of its DNA.  Take "Do-Re-Mi" from "Sound of Music"  The student can play the ascending scale while singing the melody.  This forms a basis for ear-training -- if the student learns to hear such a pattern as a scale behind a melody that may seem complex, then they can begin to recognize the details.

As far as teaching the crossing.  I begin with the R.H. descending!  In this way they continue down to the thumb when they have to do something.  Also, they do not need to remember the crossing point in the beginning.  When they are comfortable with that, which I have found to be fairly quickly, then we work on the ascending R.H. scale.  The L.H. scale does the same thing ascending -- play 5 to 1 then you figure out the crossing.

[dbmusic]

(I know this is an older topic but I thought that I would add my two cents)

I like to teach scales early.  First thing I relate them to is familiar melodies.  The ability to play scales allows easy access to "Joy to the World" and "Away in a Manger".  In this way, they are more than just dry busy work.  Also, besides specific melodies that are made of scales, there are melodies that have a scale as part of its DNA.  Take "Do-Re-Mi" from "Sound of Music"  The student can play the ascending scale while singing the melody.  This forms a basis for ear-training -- if the student learns to hear such a pattern as a scale behind a melody that may seem complex, then they can begin to recognize the details.

As far as teaching the crossing.  I begin with the R.H. descending!  In this way they continue down to the thumb when they have to do something.  Also, they do not need to remember the crossing point in the beginning.  When they are comfortable with that, which I have found to be fairly quickly, then we work on the ascending R.H. scale.  The L.H. scale does the same thing ascending -- play 5 to 1 then you figure out the crossing.

Loved your comment about 'dry, busy work'. That's exactly why I enjoy teaching scales as part of the bigger musical picture. Taken out of context they come across as a chore which is exactly what we don't want scales to be! Far better for the student to feel they've just been given the key to the toy box!