Czerny V. Hanon??

[musicluvr49]

I've gotten different opinions about this, and I'd like to know which is better to improve technical skills. Thanks.
 

[thalbergmad]

Oh no, please dear God, not again.

Thal

[musicluvr49]

Oh no, please dear God, not again.

Thal

Huh?? I really wanna know.

[pianist1976]

My very personal opinion: neither Hanon nor Czerny 

[musicluvr49]

My very personal opinion: neither Hanon nor Czerny 

Oh, ok. So just practicing scales and arpeggios, and playing pieces will improve my technique you think?

[allthumbspiano]

Oh no, please dear God, not again.

Thal

Thats the damn funniest thing I heard all day.

[lelle]

In all seriousness though, I've been wondering myself. Though I do neither Czerny nor Hanon I am wondering if I should. Do/did proffessional pianists (Richter, Hamelin, Zimerman etc) do them and did the exercises have a documented effect on the technique in that case?

[djealnla]

In all seriousness though, I've been wondering myself. Though I do neither Czerny nor Hanon I am wondering if I should. Do/did proffessional pianists (Richter, Hamelin, Zimerman etc) do them and did the exercises have a documented effect on the technique in that case?

Unashamedly taken from Wikipedia: 

Piano students all over the world know of Hanon’s famous training exercises for pianists. Both Sergei Rachmaninoff and Josef Lhévinne claimed Hanon to be the secret of why the Russian piano school delivered an explosion of virtuosi in their time, for the Hanon exercises have been obligatory for a long time throughout Russian conservatories; there were special examinations at which one had to know all exercises by heart, to be played in all tonalities at highly advanced speed.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charles-Louis_Hanon&oldid=404177545

[pianist1976]

Unashamedly taken from Wikipedia:  

Piano students all over the world know of Hanon’s famous training exercises for pianists. Both Sergei Rachmaninoff and Josef Lhévinne claimed Hanon to be the secret of why the Russian piano school delivered an explosion of virtuosi in their time, for the Hanon exercises have been obligatory for a long time throughout Russian conservatories; there were special examinations at which one had to know all exercises by heart, to be played in all tonalities at highly advanced speed.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charles-Louis_Hanon&oldid=404177545

This is another example of the little inaccuracies that can be found on Wikipedia. Anybody can contribute without any kind of filter or real obligation to demonstrate the sources. I'm sure this fragment was written by a Hanon fan. It's true that Rachmaninoff stated that he was obliged to do technique exams and that he was obliged to study some Hanon's in every tonality but It's false he stated Hanon's was the key to the "explosion of virtuosi". The book referenced in the article, 1917's Francis Cooke pianists, is now public domain. Lhevinne's pages have no reference to Hanon, and Rachmaninoff speaks about the need for a good technique but he doesn't speak in any moment as Hanon been the "secret", as Whiskypedia states. He only said that Hanon was part of the routine and exams. The other "facts" are interpretations and imagination of the wikipedists, they put in the mouth of Rachmaninoff some words he didn't say (just what one must expect of an encyclopedia, objectivity and accuracy )

And I read two or three times Lhevinne's book, that is also pointed as a reference in the Wikipedia article, and never found a single word about Hanon. He spoke about scales as indispensable. Another great virtuoso from Rach's generation, and an example of the "explosion", Jozef Hofmann, wrote in his books that he recommended playing scales and Pischna exercises. Not a single word about Hanon (again). I'm pretty sure that Rachmaninoff's phenomenal technique was given despite Hanon, not thanks to. Karl Leimer, the legendary teacher of Gieseking, wrote in his books the need to practice scales (again no one mention to Hanon).

There are opinions for all tastes. Sviatoslav Richted stated in the documentary "The Enigma" that he never did a scale or exercise. Also Barenboim.

Oh, ok. So just practicing scales and arpeggios, and playing pieces will improve my technique you think?

In my personal opinion, yes. I think that they improved my control and technique. I think that the best way that worked to me to improve technique were scales, arpeggios and chords exercises, plus some preludes and fugues of The Well Tempered Clavier and some selected exercises, not Hanon's, such as Brahm's, Dohnany and Pischna. Just my two cents

[gyzzzmo]

Theyre both fine, as long as you practise the right way. Czerny has the advantage that you practise the wrong way less easily.

[stevebob]

I think it's funny when people frame a debate of Hanon versus Czerny, as though proponents of technical exercises fall squarely into one camp or another (or as if they were the only two people who ever wrote exercises).

[musicluvr49]

I think it's funny when people frame a debate of Hanon versus Czerny, as though proponents of technical exercises fall squarely into one camp or another (or as if they were those only two people who ever wrote exercises).

Sorry, but these are the only two exercises I've ever heard of. Are there others that you could recommend?

[musicluvr49]

This is another example of the little inaccuracies that can be found on Wikipedia. Anybody can contribute without any kind of filter or real obligation to demonstrate the sources. I'm sure this fragment was written by a Hanon fan. It's true that Rachmaninoff stated that he was obliged to do technique exams and that he was obliged to study some Hanon's in every tonality but It's false he stated Hanon's was the key to the "explosion of virtuosi". The book referenced in the article, 1917's Francis Cooke pianists, is now public domain. Lhevinne's pages have no reference to Hanon, and Rachmaninoff speaks about the need for a good technique but he doesn't speak in any moment as Hanon been the "secret", as Whiskypedia states. He only said that Hanon was part of the routine and exams. The other "facts" are interpretations and imagination of the wikipedists, they put in the mouth of Rachmaninoff some words he didn't say (just what one must expect of an encyclopedia, objectivity and accuracy )

And I read two or three times Lhevinne's book, that is also pointed as a reference in the Wikipedia article, and never found a single word about Hanon. He spoke about scales as indispensable. Another great virtuoso from Rach's generation, and an example of the "explosion", Jozef Hofmann, wrote in his books that he recommended playing scales and Pischna exercises. Not a single word about Hanon (again). I'm pretty sure that Rachmaninoff's phenomenal technique was given despite Hanon, not thanks to. Karl Leimer, the legendary teacher of Gieseking, wrote in his books the need to practice scales (again no one mention to Hanon).

There are opinions for all tastes. Sviatoslav Richted stated in the documentary "The Enigma" that he never did a scale or exercise. Also Barenboim.

In my personal opinion, yes. I think that they improved my control and technique. I think that the best way that worked to me to improve technique were scales, arpeggios and chords exercises, plus some preludes and fugues of The Well Tempered Clavier and some selected exercises, not Hanon's, such as Brahm's, Dohnany and Pischna. Just my two cents

Ok thank you, I'll try that.

[anamnesis]

Bernhard take-down of Hanon/Czerny:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=13583.msg147163;topicseen#msg147163

[geelongfamily]

I'm trying to get my digits moving again after 20 years of total distraction and I'm telling you, any and all exercises, played regularly, are great for me. I'm not saying no to anything that comes my way. If it gets those pinkies flying then I'll play it.

[john11inc]

Not so much which one.  Hanon, then Czerny, if you want to go that route.  You'll almost certainly want to work on studies; the anti-study/etude mindset is not one that's intuitive to creating an exceptionally strong technique and/or good sight-reading skills.  But there is always the argument of how much time one must spend on studies to adequately learn all they have to offer.  If your primary interest in piano is for enjoyment, you'll still want to practice your scales and at least some brand of "studies", but not nearly as much as the liner notes of the Hanon or Czerny studies might indicate.  If you have aspirations of becoming a professional pianist, you'll almost certainly want them, but you'll want to do them with an instructor.

[aintgotnorhythm]

Just spent a year doing Hanon for an hour or so each day, having had no previous experience of Hanon or Czerny. Definitely it helped my dexterity/finger strength, however in the end I just got bored with it.

In retrospect, I think a better approach and one which I am now following is to learn pieces such as the Scarlatti sonatas (or Bach preludes/fugues, etc.). Then make a "Hanon style" exercise out of the tough bars from Scarlatti (e.g. often the right hand plays a phrase which is then repeated by the left hand - put the two phrases together for an exercise in which both hands are playing the same notes).

Then I think you get the same benefits of a Hanon exercise but driven by a piece you actually want to play so it's not so mind-numbingly dull. Also the Hanon exercises rarely use the black notes unless you transpose them.

[countrymath]

Czerny rules (some opus, like Art of finger dex. and School ov velocity)
Hanon sux.

[pianisten1989]

The good thing, no, the BEST thing about piano is that everyone is exactly the same. If I learn more from Hanon than Czerny, everybody else is like that to. Since everyone's hands are exactly the same (how far you can reach etc. is just fake) you don't have try anything out yourself. Just ask at a piano forum, and they will give you the One right answer.

[lostinidlewonder]

hmm, well Czerny wrote many pieces which sound quite wonderful and are very fun to play from a technical/musical standpoint. Many people have performed Czerny in concert but Hanon?? For the early beginner Hanon is indispensable, I would keep away from beginner Czerny because of the blandness of sound. Intermediate students can benefit a lot from Czerny works for example, op299 no 34 is usually responded to well by all of my students who tried it.

[musicluvr49]

The good thing, no, the BEST thing about piano is that everyone is exactly the same. If I learn more from Hanon than Czerny, everybody else is like that to. Since everyone's hands are exactly the same (how far you can reach etc. is just fake) you don't have try anything out yourself. Just ask at a piano forum, and they will give you the One right answer.

Thanks for the sarcasm......

I think I'll just try them both out, since I've got different opinions on this.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I admit I haven't touched my Hanon book for like 2 years. I never finished all of them, I got up to around #50 and then I don't know what happened.... Not saying its a good thing (or a bad thing =P )

I think my teacher either forgot... or just gave up on me and Hanon (Ms, if you're reading this, I think we should just keep it that way =D)

But honestly, scales (and chords, arpeggios, etc) are challenging enough for me... Of course I do other random exercises, as suggested by my teacher, just not Hanon or Czerny. I think the answer to "which exercises are better" depends on you. Could you ask your teacher?

[musicluvr49]

Well my teacher only gives my Hanon, so I just wanted more opinions about it.

[ladypianist]

hello musicluvr49 . Actually a very difficult question to answer. We as human beings are so different. Our hand shape, our arms, our fingers, our wrists. No one rule works for everyone. IF you need these exercises only a good teacher who has seen you play can really answer that question. There are many other method books to choose from.  One must keep in mind when this material was composed. It goes back to the Classical period and inherent in much of what is taught by these books is simply not suitable for the more advanced repertoire starting in the Romantic period.  I myself having been exposed to them as a child had my teachers discard them almost as once.  I know you wish there was a more definitive answer, but you wouldnt expect a doctor to diagnosis you over the phone and the same goes here.

With best regards for your studies, Lady Pianist.

[49410enrique]

.

[mozart12]

its diferrent czerny are little studies and with hanon youll get stronger fingers etc
of course czerny wrote sonatas etc, but mostly, people know him just because his studies,
ive been studiyng both of course, and when i was doing hanon my fingers get stroger and i could study octaves scales etc,
sorry for my english if i did mistakes

[ch101]

i like hanon's exercises because it erases the need of learning those notes that are hard to sight read and actually working the fingers. it is simple and effective.

[sergioral]

Oh dear god!

To me, Hanon it´s the hall of shame! In russia they made all days during 5 years this crap. Curious, a big number of russian pianists said they practiced that but, i don´t saw noboby saying they enjoyed! More, this exercises are a part of the "system".

Czerny, in other side, is less boring BUT, why not work the same patterns im musical context? Like bach, mozart, haydn.... all this composers have pieces from easy to difficult!

Most important.... why over training the fingers when you can use the uper arm, forearm and the wrist? Remeber.... the hanon only trains the forearm, not fingers (the muscles in fingers are only for strenght...the opening movement of).

To me, neither Czerny neither hanon.
The problems are the official piano programs! They are oldfashion.

More, This exercises are all made in 19th century! In the beggining of the piano technique (after the 18th century) the piano players don´t know almost nothing about technique and human anatomy!

I hope it helps!

Please, read the thopic: "pianists from: germany, italy...".....help is needed

cheers

[thalbergmad]

Czerny, in other side, is less boring BUT, why not work the same patterns im musical context? Like bach, mozart, haydn.... all this composers have pieces from easy to difficult!

Switching that statement around, why treat the works of great composers like exercises?

Thal

[sergioral]

NO! Not like exercises!
Simply you can learn the same skills in musical context!
Technique outside music means nothing! :S

[thalbergmad]

Simply you can learn the same skills in musical context!

That rather depends on the repetoire you are working on.

Why not gain the skills via exercises before you come across problems in repetoire?

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Technique outside music means nothing! :S

To some yes, but to others, no.

That was a huge statement you made that is not always true. Read some of the experiences that some members here have written about. Not everyone can develop in the same way.

Some people say exercises have helped, others not.

To deny a possible route to pianistic competence is blinkered in the extreme.

Thal

[becky8898]

Oh my goodness. Listening to all these posts makes my head spin.  Hanon, Czerny, Piscna, Crammer, Clementi  gradus, and any other exercise book, or method book, are tools. If you use them correctly they help you. If you use them incorrectly they can do the opposite.  Thats what a good teacher is for. To know what tool to use and how to use it.  Hanon vs Czerny is like asking Chopin etudes versus Liszt etudes.  It makes no sense.  There are no easy hard and fast rules.

I know that doesnt help much, but it does make sense.  Hope this sheds some light on this .

Cheers, Becky

[countrymath]

Oh my goodness. Listening to all these posts makes my head spin.  Hanon, Czerny, Piscna, Crammer, Clementi  gradus, and any other exercise book, or method book, are tools. If you use them correctly they help you. If you use them incorrectly they can do the opposite.  Thats what a good teacher is for. To know what tool to use and how to use it.  Hanon vs Czerny is like asking Chopin etudes versus Liszt etudes.  It makes no sense.  There are no easy hard and fast rules.

I know that doesnt help much, but it does make sense.  Hope this sheds some light on this .

Cheers, Becky

Agreed.

[thalbergmad]

There are no easy hard and fast rules.

Wise words and I would add that one must forge their own path.

Thal

[1plus]

If you have enough confident in your teacher: listen the what your teach said
If you do not have enough confident in your teacher: change teacher....

I give up Hanon for a well, but i pick it up randomly some times per month.
I personally suggest Czerny 821(8 measures) for late-intermediate or early-advanced pianist. My teacher give me some exercies on this for each course and i'm pretty sure that it helps me. You will be work on a specific technique for each 8measures.

[lousyplayer]

Hum, I never tried Hanon, but I played Czerny because my teacher insisted when i got to level 5 and I hated it. I can't stand the nonsense of it. Scales at least sound like something while Czerny is just stupid. Now I just practice the piece I am doing now very well and that's it, eventually my technique improves from one piece to another. oh, and I so scales and arpegios.

Another thing, my body physically rejects Czerny, not the fingers themselves but there is something in my nervous system that goes literally bust. I will be like kicking the piano!

[robson]

Czerny V. Hanon?? none of them.

[pts1]

.

[amelialw]

working on Czerny op.299 before I go back to chopin etudes and it has benifitted me alot...really has made quite a difference to my technique; am working on it at the same time as Haydn though

[robson]

At one point in my life, I had developed a quite professional virtuoso technique, and I'll tell you how I did it. It is not the ONLY way, but it works and gives you a great deal of technical competence and "freedom" to express yourself musically.

My daily practice regimen was 6 hours per day 6 days a week.

Everyday, I practiced the entire Hanon book.
...

completely waste of time and energy...
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=46198.0

[pts1]

robson

How impressive, to dismiss a couple of hundred years of the basis of the Russian School of Piano -- a well developed and varied technique -- by saying its "completely waste of time and energy".

LOL

Its obvious that you've never developed anything near a virtuoso technique.

And as I said, it doesn't have to be Hanon or Czerny, just a thorough regimen that develops all pianistic technical challenges.

Are scales a waste of time?

Are arpeggios a waste of time?

Are double thirds a waste of time?

Are trills a waste of time?

Are tremolos a waste of time?

Are double sixths a waste of time?

Are repeated notes a waste of time?

Is being able to sit down and already be able to play these technical challenges when you encounter them in a piece of music a "waste of time".

[survivor23]

What to keep in mind, is to try to different techniques, until you find something that works for you. The key is to be mindful about what is working and what doesnt. What works for me may not work for someone else.

So the key is, to try, and if you dont see improvement right away, try something else.

I have found that when I try something different to improve a particular technique, I see improvement within one day, and if not one day, then at least within a week.

I use Hanon, Czerny, everything I get my hands on.

I find it funny when people argue, "THIS IS RIGHT, THIS IS WRONG!"  There is no such thing. Usually people with such definite positions, they usually invested in someway, (like maybe they wasted a ton of time and dont want to admit it, or they want you to struggle the way THEY did), etc.

[lousyplayer]

 
[/quote]
I know you are calling me ignorant, but I absolutely agree with you: those exercises are great for your hands and will turn you into a virtuoso pianist or whatever. But I cannot physically do them, they get on my nerves. May be the solution would be to play with some cheese in my ears? what do you suggest?

Also, I correct when I said I started Czerny for my level 5 exams, its not level 5 because I did it in Spain, here must be level 8 or something because I practiced almost all Czerny schol of velocity and on pianostreet.com most are level 8 and above (I recognized the music sheet). I am not familiar with Hanon. Btw may be someone could help me identify what level is which, I am a bit confused. Which level is Bach 3 voice invention?

Also, why do you say that Czerny doesn't practice both hands at the same time? it absolutely does!

[lousyplayer]

I absolutely agree with you! c'mon, nobody came up with a different set of exercises since the 19th century?? what do music teachers at the Royal Academy of music research about? Are they just taknig on other people's work? Besides, there is so much 20th century and 21st century repertoire  including jazz that requires different skills!

These exercises might even be wrong from an anatomical point of view and nobody seems to question them.

[pts1]

lousyplayer

I prefer the Czerny over the Hanon in terms of being more interesting.
However, the Hanon is more efficient eventhough a number of the Czerny etudes are more difficult.

His question was about choosing one or the other.

And though there are Czerny exercises that do exercise both hands equally at the same time, many do not, whereas all of the Hanon do.

Back when I was really working hard at the piano, we had no choice but to develop a professional technique. It was either that or get kicked out. So I had to be like an elite small muscle athlete, and train like crazy to achieve this, and I chose playing through the Hanon once each day with focus and athleticism, and doing so worked wonders.

I would bet money that if a lot of these people saying that exercises are unnecessary or vulgar or some other such nonsense were faced with having to develop an elite technique in a few months, they'd find they had to work long and diligently at some all-inclusive regimen just as all successful pianists have done for a hundred years or more.

There remain those who "talk the talk" and those who "walk the walk".

[marik1]

There remain those who "talk the talk" and those who "walk the walk".

It seems that so far it is actually you, who "talks the talk" rather than "walks the walk". Indeed, you are so good in accusing others in snobbery and dilettantism, and constantly implying how awesome you are. Why wouldn't you start "walking" yourself?--post something worthwhile--recording, or write something nice...

Best, M

[pts1]

,

[robson]

pts1, does your mommy know you're out?

[ajspiano]

pts - I think you'll find marik's elements of tone production were to do with variants in the fine movement patterns that you so fondly speak of in horowitzs playing.

The complexity exists in the enormous variation possible within the human apparatus, which is in turn used to create the key strike. Not in the function of the piano mechanism itself.

Also - you're shaking the ivory tower a little - marik has been a valued member of the forum since 2004, and to the best of my knowledge is an EXTREMELY competent pianist and teacher. I doubt he feels the need to substantiate his knowledge, because he has done that already, time an time again over 1000 or so posts..