BBC broadcast of recent concerto performance of Nobuyuki Tsujii

[ubon2010]

Remember Nobuyuki Tsujii, the 22-year old Japanese pianist who was such a sensation at the 2009 Cliburn International Piano Competition?   Tsujii recently performed Tchikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1 with the BBC Philharmonic, and the performance is broadcast today on BBC3 radio and available for 7 days: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00x1ss4
I am aware that the Tchaikovsky 1 is considered an old war horse, but it is still one of the most demanding works for any pianist.  
M. L. (https://sites.google.com/site/nobufans/)

[retrouvailles]

Possibly the most hyped up contestant in the Van Cliburn competition in recent years. And an old war horse with a million recordings.

Pass.

[ubon2010]

This is exactly the reaction that I expected from some.  And I understand.
This may come as a surprise, but there are whole generations of people who have not heard of Tchaikovsky.  This concerto may be an old war horse to some, but a fresh take from an extraordinary artist may just breathe some new life into it.  
I would really like to hear the learned opinions of seasoned listeners of the performance, if they can be objective about it.  Thanks!

[thalbergmad]

This concerto may be an old war horse to some, but a fresh take from an extraordinary artist may just breathe some new life into it.  

I could only last about 10 minutes as I am bored to insanity with this work and it sounded average to me. I would certainly like to know what is "fresh" about it.

Not sure how it is possible to breathe new life into it. Like a rotting corpse in the desert, it has been ripped to pieces by so many vultures there is no meat left on the bones.

I will leave this recording in the capable hands of the generations of people that have never heard of Tchaikovsky.

Thal

[richard black]

Strikes me as a pretty tedious play-through of the piece.

But the broadcast is worth listening to - thanks for the link! Never mind the Tchaik, there's some John Foulds in there which is lovely, and the Howells Requiem is a beautiful piece too.

[ubon2010]

I asked for learned opinions, and I got them - thanks!
But may I suggest this: It may be just why classical music is having such a hard time in these days that those who have been at it for a long time are so jaded - sorry that's the word.  Your derisive attitude to a classical masterpiece is a turn-off to people who are just developing enthusiasm.  By your standard, old popular pieces like the Tchaikovsky 1 and the Rachmaninoffs should never be performed any more because they are so tiresome.  
Okay, I will tell you what's fresh about this performance - it is played by someone who has been blind from birth and yet has found a way to  master "fortissimo 10-fingered chords, double octaves in contrary motion, and sixty-fourth notes runs for both hands"; and the music is beautiful to my ears, which thankfully have not been as burdened as others.  By the way, Tsujii managed to be perfectly in sync with the orchestra without seeing, and he learned and memorized every note of a 45-minute work without sight.

[general disarray]

Haven't heard his performance, but I agree he's
an exceptional musician, as did judge Menachem Pressler.  But when you Argerich's T1 ringing inyiur ears, everyone else sounds run of the mill.  But it's enviable that you can still hear the freshness in this piece.  I had to learn it to realize how effective it still is!  Familiarity, I'm afraid, breeds contempt.

[thalbergmad]

By your standard, old popular pieces like the Tchaikovsky 1 and the Rachmaninoffs should never be performed any more because they are so tiresome.  

Absolute rubbish, nobody has said this. However, anyone who decides to perform a popular piece is bound to be compared to superior renditions.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Okay, I will tell you what's fresh about this performance - it is played by someone who has been blind from birth

How does that make it fresh?? Should the pianist be judged more favourably because he has a disability?

People who hear this are not always going to be aware of his blindness and it is not exactly unheard of.

If he could see, I would think it was average, if he was partially sighted I would think it was average and if he only had one finger, I would still think it was average.

Thal

[ubon2010]

How does that make it fresh?? Should the pianist be judged more favourably because he has a disability?

It is fresh because it is performed by someone who has a different perspective than most people.  Perhaps if you know the background of the artist better, and have attended a performance of his, you would think differently.

If he could see, I would think it was average, if he was partially sighted I would think it was average and if he only had one finger, I would still think it was average.

Thank you - if I were Mr. Tsujii, I would take this as a high compliment.    He is only tweny-two - if he is indeed average now (which I and many disagree), he will have ample time to grow.

[omar_roy]

I listened to it.

I have to agree with Thal here, it is pretty average, and I have to confess i've never particularly been a fan of this work in general.  And I fail to see how being blind gives a different perspective.  Maybe if he was deaf...

[thalbergmad]

Perhaps if you know the background of the artist better, and have attended a performance of his, you would think differently.

In order to give an unbiased as possible opinion, I would have thought that it would be best to know absolutely nothing about a pianist before hearing them play.

I have sincere admiration for the man in overcoming a disability to play a difficult work as this, but it does not affect my judgement on his playing.

It is average if I knew him and average if I did not.

Thal

[ubon2010]

I listened to it.

Excellent!  That's what my initial post was about.  Thank you all for providing your opinions.  I am not at all unhappy with the responses.  I know there are people who are inspired by Nobuyuki Tsujii and some who have become enthusiastic about piano music because of him, so he has already contributed to the piano community.  I admire him.

[lostinidlewonder]

Tsujii is a master pianist, recordings of his you can see online are all of very high quality.

If Tsujii wasn't blind then I think he still would have had a wonderful career (I really don't think he would have won the Van if he had the use of his eyes though It is much more fun to see a blind man win a van), because he is blind however and a concert pianist this is a very rare mix. However it has almost a side to it, like a poodle dancing on its hind legs, something to look at and say wow how clever. But really the music should have no connection to his optic nerve functionality, but many people seem to gawk at the disability and be confounded how the person can function.

If people realize that blind people can still see with their other senses they will not put such great power into the disability they think they see.

[retrouvailles]

Excellent!  That's what my initial post was about.  Thank you all for providing your opinions.  I am not at all unhappy with the responses.  I know there are people who are inspired by Nobuyuki Tsujii and some who have become enthusiastic about piano music because of him, so he has already contributed to the piano community.  I admire him.

If you were to put him behind a screen and judge his playing, or do this for a random sample of musicians who have no idea of his backstory or whatnot, how would it turn out for him? Would they be able to tell that he is blind from birth, etc? These are all many gimmicks that just turn him into a publicity stunt and obscure his musical qualities/shortcomings. In the end, those who produce "learned opinions" are only going to go by his musical production and not get caught up in all that other noise. To me, his interpretations are nothing special, nevermind from the fact that he does tend to some notes (without affecting the harmony), or not get them exactly. I know this is not his fault, but still. If any other pianist were to do something like this, some people would go up in arms. Couple his boring interpretations with the fact that he only plays exclusively standard repertoire warhorses, and that makes for a pianist that would not have much new to give to his audience, were it not for his disability. (Don't tell me that Kapustin is not standard repertoire, either.) He can definitely play the piano, but a master? I think not. I give more credit to people like Joaquín Rodrigo and Jean Langlais, who were also blind musicians for most (if not all) their lives. They were composers, and very good ones, in addition to being masters of the guitar and organ, respectively.

Who are you, anyways? His publicist?

I really don't think he would have won the Van if he had the use of his eyes though

Completely agree. I think it is unfortunate that an extramusical trait contributed to his tying for 1st place.

Again, if you don't like my opinions, well, remember. They're just opinions.

[ubon2010]

Who are you, anyways? His publicist?

You flattered me.  I am just an ardent admirer of Mr. Tsujii, and incidentally I am not Japanese.

If you were to put him behind a screen and judge his playing, or do this for a random sample of musicians who have no idea of his backstory or whatnot, how would it turn out for him?

You are entitled to your opinion, which is not new - many expressed the same after the Cliburn.  There will never be any definitive answer to whether Tsujii would have won if he were not blind.  On this I am fairly objective.  I think it comes down to two camps of people: (1) those who insist on disregarding any external factors in piano performances and (2) those who cannot help but see the human condition (i.e., in this case, Tsujii's blindness) as part of the performance.  It is clear that we belong to separate camps.

Couple his boring interpretations with the fact that he only plays exclusively standard repertoire warhorses, and that makes for a pianist that would not have much new to give to his audience, were it not for his disability.

I am not so learned that I can tell whether Beethoven's ‘Hammerklavier’ (performed by Tsujii in the SF of the Van) is considered a standard repertoire warhorse, but I do know that John Musto's 'Improvisation and Fugue' is a modern composition that few have performed; in fact Tsujii was the only one of the 12 semifinalists who chose to perform it, considered among the most difficult of the four choices.
By the way, Tsujii is a composer also, and he plays his own compositions for encores.
I recommend that you try to attend one of his concerts and see for yourself what he has to offer.  You may just be surprised.

[ubon2010]

Tsujii is a master pianist, recordings of his you can see online are all of very high quality.

Agreed – Nobuyuki Tsujii is a virtuoso.

If people realize that blind people can still see with their other senses they will not put such great power into the disability they think they see.

This interests me – do you have any scientific evidence to support this assertion?  As an extension of my admiration for Tsujii, I have been looking into how his blindness affects his performances and his life in general.  For example: Tsujii said in interviews that it takes him one to three days to learn a very short piece; a week for something longer -- such as a Chopin sonata.   And when asked "how long does it take you to memorize and digest a piano concerto?"  His answer was: "About a month.  But I will be playing all my regular repertoire too at the same time while learning a new concerto."
To the professional pianists on this forum: How does this compare with your pace?

[retrouvailles]

I recommend that you try to attend one of his concerts and see for yourself what he has to offer.  You may just be surprised.

I think not. I once had a blind piano tuner (you hear right) who was also a pretty great pianist, so this concept is not new to me. The advantage Nobuyuki has over my old piano tuner is that he is young and just happened to be noticed by the right people, such as Pressler.

Also, if you have read my other posts, I am a pretty hard nosed critic when it comes to modern compositions, so I am fully aware of the fact that Nobuyuki performed the Musto. I haven't heard his performance, but I just might go and listen to it with the score in hand. I believe that accuracy is even more important these days, so it should be interesting to see how a blind pianist who obviously mostly deals with common practice music dealt with something that one would think would be out of his league. Also, on the note of his compositions, I am already fearful of what sort of post-romantic drivel he probably produced, which is what most concert pianists compose these days, aside from the ones with real compositional résumés. I may be a tough critic, but I think it gets me by quite well in my musical life.

On a side note, I would have really loved to see how he would have learned the Musto. There were no recordings of it when he learned it, and it is obviously not in a common practice tonal idiom.

[lostinidlewonder]

This interests me – do you have any scientific evidence to support this assertion?  

I know blind people personally and they have relayed to me how they "see" the world and in fact that that those with sight often do not actually see what is in front of them. For us with sight we gain so much just from looking we could not imagine what life would be if we lost our vision from our eyes. If you study how blind people dream a lot of them who where blind from a very young age do not dream in pictures but instead in sound, smell, touch etc. Do they miss out on dreaming? Perhaps for those with image vision we may think so but those who are blind would have something different to tell you. You may be interested in this blind boy who could see the world in sound.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=33636.msg394810#msg394810

With regards to piano I can do what a blind person does while I sight read. My eyes are fixed to the score and I do not watch my hands. At high level piano your eyes become somewhat unimportant, especially if you play works you have memorized and know well. I think the greatest challenge for a blind concert pianist is learning your music unless you read the score with your toes while you play I guess. That immediate efficiency of learning that sight reading give you a blind person has to deal without, but there is again no mystery how they do it as I was a bias muscular memorizer before I made the change to the more efficient memory via sight reading. You can feel in your hands what phrases should be like, a blind person would feel it in their hands and also their ears will control how they play it. If you where deaf, now this would be an incredible feat if you could play piano at a masters level, it would be literally beyond belief.

Tsujii said in interviews that it takes him one to three days to learn a very short piece; a week for something longer -- such as a Chopin sonata.   And when asked "how long does it take you to memorize and digest a piano concerto?"  His answer was: "About a month.  But I will be playing all my regular repertoire too at the same time while learning a new concerto."
To the professional pianists on this forum: How does this compare with your pace?

At my maximum output I was learning 24 Chopin etudes in under 4 weeks. This experience I discussed here: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=16476.0
In all honesty if any of us pushed ourselves to our maximum for the rest of our lives we would die of a heart attack. Tsujii's rate you mentioned is nothing spectacular for a professional standard.

[cmg]

To the professional pianists on this forum: How does this compare with your pace?

Look, I don't think anyone is really doubting the ability of this pianist.  It's the choice of repertoire, isn't it?  If this young man has been blessed by the commercial gods in his competition prize, why stoop to performing a work such as the Tchaikovski, a work rendered asunder for decades by pianists who are legendary?  Anyone who has paid attention to the prolific and impressive output of Hyperion records knows that there are just as interesting and dramatic concerti, ignored and under-performed, waiting for champions out there.  Why is this young man, who has a more introverted talent, lately contrentrating on extroverted, over-played pieces that are the provence of super-virtuosi such as Argerich?  He doesn't have the temperament for this extroverted piece.  Period. 

[cmg]

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=33636.msg394810#msg394810

With regards to piano I can do what a blind person does while I sight read. My eyes are fixed to the score and I do not watch my hands. At high level piano your eyes become somewhat unimportant, especially if you play works you have memorized and know well. I think the greatest challenge for a blind concert pianist is learning your music unless you read the score with your toes while you play I guess. That immediate efficiency of learning that sight reading give you a blind person has to deal without, but there is again no mystery how they do it as I was a bias muscular memorizer before I made the change to the more efficient memory via sight reading. You can feel in your hands what phrases should be like, a blind person would feel it in their hands and also their ears will control how they play it. If you where deaf, now this would be an incredible feat if you could play piano at a masters level, it would be literally beyond belief.At my maximum output I was learning 24 Chopin etudes in under 4 weeks. This experience I discussed here: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=16476.0
In all honesty if any of us pushed ourselves to our maximum for the rest of our lives we would die of a heart attack.

With all due respect, this is utterly unintelligible.

[ubon2010]

I am fully aware of the fact that Nobuyuki performed the Musto. I haven't heard his performance, but I just might go and listen to it with the score in hand.

For your information Nobuyuki Tsujii reprised his performance of this piece just this past October in Fort Worth in the presence of the composer himself, John Musto - see here: https://www.theaterjones.com/pf.php?articleid=20101101093453

On a side note, I would have really loved to see how he would have learned the Musto. There were no recordings of it when he learned it, and it is obviously not in a common practice tonal idiom.

Tsujii did it as he learns any other piece.  The notes on separate hands are recorded on cassettes on separate tapes, with spoken annotations.  He listens to each tape over and over again and syntheize the whole thing in his mind.  Because of this laborious process, he had considerable less time than the other semifinalists to prepare for that part of the competition.  You may know that he won that part also, in addition to his gold medal.

[lostinidlewonder]

With all due respect, this is utterly unintelligible.

I am not after respect online so there is no need to be respectful. You might have suffered the "unintelligble" comments of mine a little by highlighting what is so confusing? Maybe if I simplify?


Strong sight reading skill requires that you maintain your eyes on the score and do not look at your hands, in fact we can train ourselves to get to the point where do not have to look at our hands at all while sight reading, not that everyone can attain this but it is not a skill that cannot be learnt.

I also can play many of my pieces that I know for many years without sight without extensively training myself to do so. I could also play with the keyboard covered with a cloth, in a dark room etc. What is the point of it? It is a skill that one can acquire if you study pieces you know well. So the skill the blind pianist has those with sight can do the same, however since the blind person must learn everything from the blind state there might seem to be a greater challenge, certainly it would be a challenge for us with sight to ever learn a piece completely without sight.

The greatest asset we with visual sight have is to sight read music this is something a blind person cannot have. They cannot read and play the piece at the same time the process must be taken in separate steps. This is not to say it is a bad way, it is less efficient than memorizing via sight reading though. Tsujii will never acquire the rate of learning as the top musicians because he has no sight and I cannot fathom how to make learning music more efficient without sight, if this existed I would be doing it. As an afterthought no one really has to learn at a fast rate, there are plenty of professional musicians who simply play a set of works constantly and learn new works at not really an extraordinary rate. Then you have those who dedicate themselves in memorizing huge amounts, Richter for example. There is no real need to be fast in learning unless it is part of your musical path.

[ubon2010]

>To the professional pianists on this forum: How does this compare with your pace?
Look, I don't think anyone is really doubting the ability of this pianist.  

Funny, I posed that question not implying anything about ability.  I was just interested in how Tsujii's pace compares with other pianists' in general.

It's the choice of repertoire, isn't it?  If this young man has been blessed by the commercial gods in his competition prize, why stoop to performing a work such as the Tchaikovski, a work rendered asunder for decades by pianists who are legendary?  

You may be interested in knowing that his co-medalist also performed the same in at least one of his concerts on the Cliburn tour, along with Chopin standards such as the ballades, etc.  
This is exactly my point in my second post on this thread.  To those of you who have been in this for a long time, the Tchaikovsky and the Chopin and the Rach are old warhorses, but they are popular for a reason: they are masterful and good to listen to. People who are not as well-learned as you deserve to hear them performed by artists of their own generation.  That’s how the art of piano is perpetuated, otherwise we could all just listen to Rubenstein and Horowitz and there is no more need for new pianists.  

I read that there are young people who came out of one of the “Twilight”-series of movies thinking that Debussy’s Clair de Lune - on the sound track --  is a new composition, and love it.  We are fortunate to have young talented people interested in carrying on the art and playing the old repertoire to introduce these masterpieces  to their own generation.

I will also add that in the case of Tsujii, his main audience is in his homeland of Japan, and apparently there is a market there for “old repertoire war horses”.   Classical music enjoys much greater respect in Japan.  I envy people who live there.

[ahinton]

For example: Tsujii said in interviews that it takes him one to three days to learn a very short piece; a week for something longer -- such as a Chopin sonata.   And when asked "how long does it take you to memorize and digest a piano concerto?"  His answer was: "About a month..."

I'm not a pianist but I am well able to question which is the siller - the questions or the answers. How can every "very short piece" be expected to take approximately the same amount of time to learn, regardless of which pianist might be learning it? The same question goes for this "something longer" - that could be Alkan's solo concerto, Szymanowski's Second Sonata, Stockausen's Klavierstuck X, Finnissy's Concerto no. 4, Medtner's E minor sonata or any number of more substantial pieces far les demanding than any of these. As to the question about "memorising and digesting" a piano concerto, should it be assumed that "a month" is also the kind of one-size-fits-all answer that does for the concertos of Mozart, Busoni, Carter, Skalkottas?

It's hard to know who's at greater fault here - the interviewer or the interviewed; if I were a pianist and anyone asked me questions like that I would confine myself to "yes" and "no" answers, even if neither could constitute actual answers.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

My nose is beginning to twitch about this thread.

That normally happens when there is some kind of commercial interest between poster and subject mmatter.

Thal

[cmg]

Funny, I posed that question not implying anything about ability.  I was just interested in how Tsujii's pace compares with other pianists' in general.

I will also add that in the case of Tsujii, his main audience is in his homeland of Japan, and apparently there is a market there for “old repertoire war horses”.   Classical music enjoys much greater respect in Japan.  I envy people who live there.

I understood your point, but was waiting for ahinton (or someone else equally qualified) to respond to it. Learning pace?  It's an absurd question and Tsujii faked the anwer.  No one can apply an arbitrary yardstick of, say, one week for shorter pieces and a month for a concerto!  No one ever mastered Chopin's Opus 10 #1 in one week! Learned the notes, yes, but got it at tempo error-free in front of an audience?  In one week?  Doubt it.  And a month for concerti? Leif Ove Andsnes, a great artist, said he spent 20 years nailing the RachIII before he felt prepared to perform and record it.

I have many Japanese friends and acquaintances where I live (NYC) and, believe me, Japanese reverence for classical music is rather another myth that shrouds that enigmatic and complex nation.  Talk to some ex-pat Japanese about why they left their sexist, conformist society.  Talk to women especially.  You'll get an earfull of "classic" complaints!  

(And, yes, thal, my nose is twitching, too.)

[cmg]

I am not after respect online so there is no need to be respectful. You might have suffered the "unintelligble" comments of mine a little by highlighting what is so confusing? Maybe if I simplify?

Ah, thanks!  Well after respect or not, you do merit it.  Appreciate the clarification.

[ubon2010]

My nose is beginning to twitch about this thread.
That normally happens when there is some kind of commercial interest between poster and subject mmatter.

If "poster" refers to me, the starter of this thread, then I am sorry: your nose has failed you this time.
To reiterate, I am an ardent admirer of Mr. Nobuyuki Tsujii - nothing more.

I have many Japanese friends and acquaintances where I live (NYC) and, believe me, Japanese reverence for classical music is rather another myth that shrouds that enigmatic and complex nation.  Talk to some ex-pat Japanese about why they left their sexist, conformist society.  Talk to women especially.  You'll get an earfull of "classic" complaints! 

Funny, I can say the same about the U.S., where I live - no country is perfect.  Suffice it to say that there are multi-hour TV programs in Japan about classical music and artists, there are multiple classical music magazines, including one named “Chopin", and most children take lessons in musical instruments.   Of course this does not mean that everyone in Japan loves classical music.

(Re: the pace of learning a piece) It's an absurd question and Tsujii faked the an(s)wer.

Okay, then allow me to rephrase the question, just out of curiosity: how long did it take you (or would it take you)  to learn the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1? 

[omar_roy]

Okay, then allow me to rephrase the question, just out of curiosity: how long did it take you (or would it take you)  to learn the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1? 

I'm not sure how this matters.  No audience cares about how fast you learn or how long it took you to learn a piece.  They don't care if you practice for 10 hours a day or 1.  What they care about is whether or not your performance is any good.

His was average.  Technically solid, musically sound, but average.  There were no moments where I thought "wow."

It is impressive that he can do such things being blind, but that has no effect on my opinion of his musicality.

[richard black]

Having posted above rather unenthusiastically, I should say that I am very fond of the Tchaikovsky concerto. I would cheerfully go and hear a performance of it tomorrow if someone told me there was one happening nearby. But the thing is, there are different standards of performance. To be considered one of the greats, you have to give a performance which from every point of view stands comparison with Horowitz, Argerich etc. I don't feel Tsujii achieves that, nor even comes very near it. I'm sure the audience at that gig generally enjoyed it (and I dare say I would have done had I been there in person), but just because a performance is good enough to entertain an audience one night in Manchester (or wherever) it doesn't necessarily mean it's good enough to stay in the annals as one of the truly great performances of all time. 'Entertaining' them is not the same as setting them on fire.

[omar_roy]

'Entertaining' them is not the same as setting them on fire.

Critical Review of Horowitz doing Tchaikovsky by Harold Schonberg:
Upon the end of the performance, I had concluded that the roof was, indeed, on fire.  We, the audience, needed no water.  We were content to simply let that mother f*cker burn to our chants of "the roof, the roof, the roof is on fire."

A fiery performance, and no less.

[ubon2010]

To be considered one of the greats, you have to give a performance which from every point of view stands comparison with Horowitz, Argerich etc. I don't feel Tsujii achieves that, nor even comes very near it.

Heavens, no.  I made no such assertion and Tsujii himself never made any claim like that, to my knowledge.  Nobuyuki Tsujii is a 22-year old university student!  Even to an ardent admirer like me, he has room to grow (he says so himself, often).

I'm sure the audience at that gig generally enjoyed it (and I dare say I would have done had I been there in person), but just because a performance is good enough to entertain an audience one night in Manchester (or wherever) it doesn't necessarily mean it's good enough to stay in the annals as one of the truly great performances of all time. 'Entertaining' them is not the same as setting them on fire.

Excuse me.  Did anyone claim that  the performance is the greatest of all time?
The performance was in Hanley – it’s mentioned on the broadcast.  By this account from there (https://notesfrommiddleengland.blogspot.com/2010/12/nobu-fever-hits-hanley.html) the performance did have the audience stamping their feet in the end, considered the ultimate compliment in that neck of the woods; but, no, it is probably not the greatest performance of all time.  Is there one such performance agreed to by all the learned people on this forum?
I said this in a previous post: There are two camps of people: some insist on disregarding all external factors in a piano performance, others can’t help but take into consideration the human factors.  There are plenty of people in my camp.

[ubon2010]

>Okay, then allow me to rephrase the question, just out of curiosity: how long did it take you (or would it take you)  to learn the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1? 
I'm not sure how this matters.  No audience cares about how fast you learn or how long it took you to learn a piece.  They don't care if you practice for 10 hours a day or 1.  What they care about is whether or not your performance is any good.

Nowhere in my question did I mention Tsujii!  I just asked the question so there is something specific to compare by, since a question such as "how long does it take you to learn a piece" is deemed too general to answer.  I just want to hear from the learned pianists on this forum their answers to this specific question, for reference.

[ubon2010]

Remember Nobuyuki Tsujii, the 22-year old Japanese pianist who was such a sensation at the 2009 Cliburn International Piano Competition?   Tsujii recently performed Tchikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1 with the BBC Philharmonic, and the performance is broadcast today on BBC3 ...

Another BBC broadcast of a performance by Nobuyuki Tsujii is currently available, and will be so through March 27, 2011 -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00zm2rn/Performance_on_3_BBC_Philharmonic_Mendelssohn_Rachmaninov_Berlioz/
It is a performance at a concert in Japan held on March 6, before the earthquake struck Japan on March 11.  A member of the BBC Philharmonic is interviewed and speaks about the earthquake experience and Tsujii's piano playing.

[ongaku_oniko]

Is he fine from the Earthquake?

I personally have listened to some of his playing, including his own compositions. I think they're wonderful, and he really gives a lot of hope to not just pianists, but everyone and anyone to do the best they can at what they love.

It's laughable to call him "average". "average" people don't even know how to play the piano. Average people don't know who Rachmaninoff is.

You can say he's "average" compared with other master pianists, "Average" compared with the best of the world, but that is meaningless. He is a great pianist, and i think there's a point where you can't objectively say who is better or who is worse, it's all personal preference at a point.

Honestly, people's opinions are "blinded" (no pun intended) by Tsuji's playing because he is blind?
Well, people are just as "blinded" by the big names of Argerich, Horowitz etc.

If we had two recordings you never heard before, swapped the names, do you really think you can tell? I highly doubt it.

Tsuji is awesome, and I'm sure he's better than all of you.

[ubon2010]

Is he fine from the Earthquake?

I personally have listened to some of his playing, including his own compositions. I think they're wonderful, and he really gives a lot of hope to not just pianists, but everyone and anyone to do the best they can at what they love.

Tsuji is awesome, and I'm sure he's better than all of you.

I am not a publicist for Nobuyuki Tsujii, just a fan in awe of this young man's brilliance.
For those who think Nobuyuki Tsujii has nothing special to contribute to the Tchaikovsky Concerto No. 1, I invite you to see these newly available videos:

I am humbled by the musicality and courage of Nobuyuki Tsujii.

Nobuyuki Tsujii is fine - he was about to perform in a concert in Japan when the earthquake struck on March 11 - see a full account here: https://sites.google.com/site/nobufans/
He is in the U.S. now (March 25) and will very soon be touring our continent to perform in California, Colorado, Pennsylvania, New York, Texas, Massachusetts, Arizona, and Canada - Beethoven's "Tempest" Sonata is on his recital program this time - see https://sites.google.com/site/nobufans/home/2011-spring-u-s-tour

[retrouvailles]

Tsuji is awesome, and I'm sure he's better than all of you.

Are you sure about that? You have never heard me play (unless you've dropped by my concerts in California unbeknownst to me).

Like I said, fame these days is not so much talent as it is publicity.

[ongaku_oniko]

Are you sure about that? You have never heard me play (unless you've dropped by my concerts in California unbeknownst to me).

Like I said, fame these days is not so much talent as it is publicity.

Let me rephrase;

I firmly believe that he is better than most, if not all of you.

No, I am not "sure" that he is better than you. But since I have never heard you play, I obviously can't judge. I would not take your word for it though, until you've shown me some of your playing.

I agree (to a certain extent) with your statement in that fame is not so much talent as it is publicity. This is why I thoroughly detest these untalented rap singers, as well as most pop singers.

However, I hope, that as an avid classical music lover, I can make a relatively informed decision on my own as to whether I feel someone really is good.

For example, Chinese pop singer Jay Chow was a piano major, I believe. I've heard him play. He's extremely popular in the sino-sphere, I'm not sure if you've heard of him. But I know he isn't that great a pianist (though I can't say he's a bad pianist). Similarly, even thoug Lang Lang is so famous, I don't think he is anywhere near the level of Li YunDi.

However, I also believe that the really talented will always find a way to become famous.

I wouldn't say susan boyle is even extremely talented, but certainly she isn't good looking, like most singers should be. Yet she was able to succeed and become known, because of her talent. Well, maybe also because of the fact that she wasn't pretty, but that doesn't undermine her talents.

So it's not like all famous people are not talented. Li Yundi is talented. Rubinstein is talented. Chopin, Beethoven, Bach... all talented.

don't dismiss him just because he's famous. It doesn't automatically make his music bad.

So maybe he isn't the world's #1 pianist. Or maybe there are pianists who are better than him that are less known. So what? That doesn't mean his own playing is bad. Again, you can never say that people at that level are just "average". The number of people who can play the piano properly is already so low. And I would like to think, though I've never been at a conservatoire, that Nobuyuki Tsuji is not just an average conservatoire student's playing level.

I am not a publicist for Nobuyuki Tsujii, just a fan in awe of this young man's brilliance.

I'm not sure why you said this, but it mae me laugh.

[ubon2010]

>I am not a publicist for Nobuyuki Tsujii, just a fan in awe of this young man's brilliance.
I'm not sure why you said this ...

Because a dozen or so posts back on this thread some learned individual wrote: "My nose is beginning to twitch about this thread. That normally happens when there is some kind of commercial interest between poster and subject matter."

So maybe he isn't the world's #1 pianist. Or maybe there are pianists who are better than him that are less known.

Nobuyuki Tsujii has been invited to perform on the Perelman Stage in the Carnegie Hall this November, in the Virtuosos  series.  The other pianists in that series? Pierre-Laurent Aimard, Jean-Yves Thibaudet, Yefim Bronfman, András Schiff, Richard Goode and Maurizio Pollini 
https://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/series/brochure/ser_744.html

[ongaku_oniko]

Because a dozen or so posts back on this thread some learned individual wrote: "My nose is beginning to twitch about this thread. That normally happens when there is some kind of commercial interest between poster and subject matter."
 
Nobuyuki Tsujii has been invited to perform on the Perelman Stage in the Carnegie Hall this November, in the Virtuosos  series.  The other pianists in that series? Pierre-Laurent Aimard, Jean-Yves Thibaudet, Yefim Bronfman, András Schiff, Richard Goode and Maurizio Pollini 
https://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/series/brochure/ser_744.html

I'm not sure why you're quoting me when you're responding to a post "a dozen or so posts ago"

I'm also not sure why you're arguing against me, when we are in clear agreement that Mr. Tsuji is a great pianist.

Or are you trying to say that he IS the world's #1? Do you think there is an objective #1 pianist in the world?

[prongated]

I firmly believe that he is better than most, if not all of you.
...
However, I hope, that as an avid classical music lover, I can make a relatively informed decision on my own as to whether I feel someone really is good.
...
So maybe he isn't the world's #1 pianist. Or maybe there are pianists who are better than him that are less known. So what? That doesn't mean his own playing is bad. Again, you can never say that people at that level are just "average". The number of people who can play the piano properly is already so low. And I would like to think, though I've never been at a conservatoire, that Nobuyuki Tsuji is not just an average conservatoire student's playing level.

I appreciate where you're coming from. It is truly important as an audience to be able to get something meaningful, beautiful, or at least pleasant out of such performances.

At the same time, you're still wrong. Well, not wrong wrong, but perhaps not quite aware of what it really is like out there for us musicians. Your last statement there says it all. You just need to drop by some of the best conservatories around to hear Gaspard, Chopin and Liszt Etudes and Sonatas, Rachmaninoff concerti being practised everywhere in the hallways. Drop by some of the students recitals and masterclasses in such places and appreciate for yourself the high level of piano playing around.

Well, it's probably not comparable to the likes of Rubinstein, but it's where you will finally be able to put the word "average" into perspective. Of course, the average person on earth can't do what Tsujii does, but the average piano student at such an institution probably can. What's more, realise that there are many such institutions around the world, with many good students, and even many more once you start counting in the rest in other institutions. So yes, the number of people in this world that can play the piano properly is low, compared to people who can do accountancy, but given the market size of classical music, the number is way too high!

For example, Chinese pop singer Jay Chow was a piano major, I believe. I've heard him play. He's extremely popular in the sino-sphere, I'm not sure if you've heard of him. But I know he isn't that great a pianist (though I can't say he's a bad pianist). Similarly, even thoug Lang Lang is so famous, I don't think he is anywhere near the level of Li YunDi.

However, I also believe that the really talented will always find a way to become famous.
...
So it's not like all famous people are not talented. Li Yundi is talented. Rubinstein is talented. Chopin, Beethoven, Bach... all talented.

Interesting. I think that while what Yundi Li does in general is more tasteful, Lang Lang is clearly the greater talent, by far. It's just a shame he chooses to use it in some of the tackiest ways possible. But maybe it is as you say - the really talented will always find a way to become famous. This season I see Lang Lang's name in Toronto, whereas the last I heard of Yundi Li was how he got dropped off his recording contract with DG.

[ongaku_oniko]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I'm wondering though, even if Tsuji is "average", what does that mean, really? That his playing sucks?

Even assuming that "average" conservatoire students can achieve his level of mastery, does that make his playing bad? Does that mean we can't enjoy the music he creates? Does that mean all music save the very best, is "bad" music or does not deserve listening?

Or are professional musicians just bitter because even though they feel they're just as good as Tsuji, they did not get the chance to become famous?


I've never gone to a conservatoire, but I know some conservatoire people. My cousin's piano teacher went to a conservatoire in Beijing. according to him, most people in the conservatoire can play like Lang Lang. Does that mean Lang Lang is thoroughly untalented and does not deserve an audience?

I'm not trying to be a smartass, it's a genuine question. For me, I can hear what I feel to be good and not as great, but I don't think I can be judge playing objectively. This is why I don't try to refute your point that average conservatoire students are as good as Tsuji.

But I really think that Li Yundi is leagues ahead of lang lang. What do you mean by lang lang has more talent? What is your defitinition of talent?

[ubon2010]

I'm also not sure why you're arguing against me, when we are in clear agreement that Mr. Tsuji is a great pianist.

Or are you trying to say that he IS the world's #1? Do you think there is an objective #1 pianist in the world?

Clearly I am not arguing against you.  And in fact I thank you for coming to the defense of Nobuyuki Tsujii. 
And clearly there is no such thing as #1 pianist in the world.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.  If you listen to the BBC broadcast (which is why I started the thread in the first place), you will hear the opinion of an orchestra member of the BBC Philharmonic, who performed with Mr. Tsujii.  I certainly value his opinion more than most others'.  The broadcast is still available for listening, by the way, at https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00zm2rn/Performance_on_3_BBC_Philharmonic_Mendelssohn_Rachmaninov_Berlioz/

[prongated]

I'm wondering though, even if Tsuji is "average", what does that mean, really? That his playing sucks?

Even assuming that "average" conservatoire students can achieve his level of mastery, does that make his playing bad? Does that mean we can't enjoy the music he creates? Does that mean all music save the very best, is "bad" music or does not deserve listening?

Or are professional musicians just bitter because even though they feel they're just as good as Tsuji, they did not get the chance to become famous?

Well, now you've definitely hit something. Yes, us musicians must admit that there's always at least a tinge of jealousy whenever we hear of someone's success. How much of it depends on many factors, among the most important being, what one really aims for in pursuing music.

And for sure, I don't think that anyone here thinks Tsujii's playing is bad. Not at all. And for sure, music deserves a listening, if it has something meaningful to say. And of course, that is something that is also up to the audience to decide, and not just jury members! (who more often than not don't seem to have any clue beyond fast fingers and loud playing!) Indeed, that is what I had in mind when I wrote earlier, "It is truly important as an audience to be able to get something meaningful, beautiful, or at least pleasant out of such performances." [and in this light, you will understand where people like retrouvailles are coming from - he has certain preferences for certain kinds music that surely speaks to him, at least more so than the Tchaikovsky concerto does]

What is said here in this thread is, I think many of us here do think that the most overwhelming factor behind his victory in the Van Cliburn competition is his (of course, very unfortunate) disability. Granted, it is always most inspiring to hear someone with any disability overcome such difficulty to succeed in something. But I do think that as musicians/pianists, Vacatello and Bozhanov are easily more outstanding and should place above Tsujii - to me, Vacatello's sound is stunningly beautiful, and Bozhanov sounds like a genius.

But perhaps, if I am a concert presenter solely concerned about the number of audiences, in a single concert I can make more money presenting Tsujii than presenting a concert each for Bozhanov and Vacatello - sadly so, I think...

I've never gone to a conservatoire, but I know some conservatoire people. My cousin's piano teacher went to a conservatoire in Beijing. according to him, most people in the conservatoire can play like Lang Lang. Does that mean Lang Lang is thoroughly untalented and does not deserve an audience?

I'm not trying to be a smartass, it's a genuine question. For me, I can hear what I feel to be good and not as great, but I don't think I can be judge playing objectively. This is why I don't try to refute your point that average conservatoire students are as good as Tsuji.

But I really think that Li Yundi is leagues ahead of lang lang. What do you mean by lang lang has more talent? What is your defitinition of talent?

Talent comes in all kinds of ways. Some have the amazing ability to sight-sight and/or learn pieces very quickly. Some have amazing physical abilities to play fast and/or to make all kinds of sound. Some have amazing aural perceptions. Some have amazing memory and attention to detail. And for me, the most meaningful talent of all in music is the ability to communicate feelings, thoughts, ideas etc. through music. I think this is what many people call musicality. And of course, it is most wonderful to have them all.

In any case, I simply find Lang Lang to be more talented than Yundi Li because he is the more musical - in other words, he is the better communicator of musical ideas and thoughts. There can be no doubt that these things are naturally present in his performances. What annoys me - and many others - is the way he chooses to employ such talent - he goes quite often for the most effective, cheap, and superficial musical solutions. Yundi Li's performances are more sophisticated in this regard, but for me, there's something a bit subverted about the way it comes out - it just doesn't come out as naturally. Of course, Li is still gifted! But...ah well, perhaps another that goes to show how tight the field of music is! Or perhaps, it is all for the sake of achieving perfection...

[ubon2010]

What is said here in this thread is, I think many of us here do think that the most overwhelming factor behind his victory in the Van Cliburn competition is his (of course, very unfortunate) disability. Granted, it is always most inspiring to hear someone with any disability overcome such difficulty to succeed in something. But I do think that as musicians/pianists, Vacatello and Bozhanov are easily more outstanding and should place above Tsujii - to me, Vacatello's sound is stunningly beautiful, and Bozhanov sounds like a genius.
But perhaps, if I am a concert presenter solely concerned about the number of audiences, in a single concert I can make more money presenting Tsujii than presenting a concert each for Bozhanov and Vacatello - sadly so, I think...

With due respect, I really resent this last statement.   Let's agree that different people appreciate piano music differently, as your words so clearly illustrate.  And let's not discount the accomplishment of any talented musician, however much your find it distasteful.  As you pointed out, there are far too many technically competent pianists coming out of music conservatories that receive too little attention.  Why?  Because after a point, technical excellence no longer impresses.  You may have your pet performers, I have mine.  I don't denigrate yours, please refrain from doing so with mine.   
I have my theories about why some resent Tsujii's success, one of which is that he has not gone through the typical Euro-American conservatory route.  https://sites.google.com/site/nobufans/nobu---going-to-the-top

[prongated]

And let's not discount the accomplishment of any talented musician, however much your find it distasteful.

No chance. Realise that it is not an attempt to denigrate, rather an honest assessment of their artwork, which by definition means that it cannot be perfect and thus should always be open to criticism and debate. In an amiable manner of course.

You may have your pet performers, I have mine.  I don't denigrate yours, please refrain from doing so with mine.

So with what I said in mind, please do tell, how you find his performance of the Tchaikovsky to be refreshing, beyond stating the obvious facts (he's blind) and making statements out of it (therefore it must be coming from a different perspective - the fact is, each of us come from different kinds of upbringing and experience the world differently, so we all have different perspectives anyway). Enlighten us as to how you find the performance (or any other) different in sound, spirit etc. compared to other performances of the work.

And perhaps, well, I'm also curious as to how you find Vacatello's and Bozhanov's performances in the Cliburn - if you've heard them.

As you pointed out, there are far too many technically competent pianists coming out of music conservatories that receive too little attention.  Why?  Because after a point, technical excellence no longer impresses.

That is the very idealistic explanation. I want to believe it too. In some cases that is true. Reality is also often otherwise. Connections with concert presenters and certain political musical figures, how pianists are able to present themselves (promotion $$$)...[not entirely my words - check out John O'Conor's; https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1113/1224283209578.html] I know a few wonderful musicians, technically accomplished with many things to say about music and absolutely ready for a solo piano career, who are finding it difficult to break into the scene.

And in retrospect, there are pianists out there in certain positions that other pianists can do a better job of. But no, my point is not that they don't deserve it. Ultimately we all need to find our place in this world. And often we get to that place not by skills and abilities alone...

I have my theories about why some resent Tsujii's success, one of which is that he has not gone through the typical Euro-American conservatory route.

Why would that be resented? Kissin didn't go through that conservatory route. Indeed, if you have the ability to play the piano very well and have the concerts and engagements, why would you?

[thalbergmad]

Because a dozen or so posts back on this thread some learned individual wrote: "My nose is beginning to twitch about this thread. That normally happens when there is some kind of commercial interest between poster and subject matter."

Yeh, and it is still twitching. 19 posts and all about the same pianist.

Perhaps the reason why you think this pianist is so great is that you have not heard many others.

Thal

[ubon2010]

Yeh, and it is still twitching. 19 posts and all about the same pianist.

Perhaps the reason why you think this pianist is so great is that you have not heard many others.

Thal

Please do something about you allergy :-)
Since you asked: I heard all the performances of the Cliburn finalists; I admire Sviatoslav Richter and Aleksandar Madžar; I attend concerts and listen to BBC3 regularly.
Perhaps I think so highly of Nobuyuki Tsujii because he brings some intangibles to the appreciation of classical music that are sorely lacking in other pianists?  

[ubon2010]

So with what I said in mind, please do tell, how you find his performance of the Tchaikovsky to be refreshing, beyond stating the obvious facts (he's blind) and making statements out of it (therefore it must be coming from a different perspective - the fact is, each of us come from different kinds of upbringing and experience the world differently, so we all have different perspectives anyway). Enlighten us as to how you find the performance (or any other) different in sound, spirit etc. compared to other performances of the work.

First of all, I don't see why I should not take into account Nobu's blindness in appreciating his music.  No, it's not the only reason but it is a factor.  Secondly, even disregarding his blindness, Nobuyuki Tsujii's playing has a tone and a fluidity that I admire.  You may not hear them, just as I don't hear the fine qualities in your pet performers, but enough people hear them that I know it is discernible.  I happen to have an album of Sivatoslav Richter of his performances of Tchai 1 and Rach 2.  I admire Richter's renditions, but I am not moved by them as I am by Nobu's.  

And perhaps, well, I'm also curious as to how you find Vacatello's and Bozhanov's performances in the Cliburn - if you've heard them.

Yes, I watched all the performances of the finalists -- they are still on the Cliburn webcast site.  I admire them - they are both virtuosos, but they don't move me.  I will say the same for Nobu's co-medalist.

I know a few wonderful musicians, technically accomplished with many things to say about music and absolutely ready for a solo piano career, who are finding it difficult to break into the scene.

I am fully cognizant of how competitive the concert pianist business is.  But please do not make that a reason to resent the accomplishment of a particular pianist that you happen to take a disliking to.  You seem to imply that Nobuyuki's success has to do with self promotion and connections.  If you have solid proof of that, I would be curious to hear it.