Littletune learns some complicated English with whoever wants to help

[littletune]

So if anyone could explain some things it would be very great... and if not... at least I'll have all the things I don't know together in one place... (I got that from Bob  )
So I'm trying to translate this but it's complicated sometimes cause it's for someone who is in college already

1. I was already asking about this one: Citation non-citation form... the sentence is:

For example the American Sign Language (ASL) sign DEAF has three possible forms. It can be produced with a movement from ear to chin (citation or dictionary form)… (then two others)... (both non-citation forms).
Could "citation" and "non-citation" form mean the same as "dictionary"? Or does it mean something else?  (oh and there is a 1 besides the word DEAF but I couldn't find any explanations at the bottom of the pages anywhere... 

2. What is a "wovel space" ? Is it this:
https://gradiva.txt.si/slovenscina/slovenscina-za-triletne-sole/jezik-in-besedilne-vrste/glasoslovje/samoglasniki/samoglasniski-trikotnik/

3. Sentence:
Variation is also present in units of discourse, as in variation in text type or in lists used in narratives.
What is " lists" ? I mean I know what a list is, like "a list of things"... but I'm not sure what exactly it means in this sentence?  Lists used in narratives?  Could someone explain that?

4. Oh and what is this funny word? 
In addition, in English, alternation between pied-piped relative pronouns and stranded prepositions provides a convenient example of syntactic variation…

pied-piped?? what is that?

5. Oh and this example (of sign language)

PRO.1 NOT SAY-ING 100 PERCENT SUPPORT, NO …
»I'm not saying 100% support, no …«, with a sign produced for the suffix –ing and continuous English mouthing.

That at the end: ... with a sign produced for the suffix - ing and continouos English mouthing... ok so mouthing probably means that you do something with your mouth right? like as if you were saying a word or something... but does "continouos mouthing" mean that you move your mouth all the time while you're making a sign or does it mean that you make a special mouthing that means "countinouos"? 

So well this for now.....  Thanks!

[thalbergmad]

Too complex for me baby.

Thal

[richard black]

I've earned a substantial part of my living as a writer for 20 years and I take some pride in my command of the language but.... I can't answer any of those! I think you'd need an academic specialising in obscure terminology.

[oxy60]

At first glance it looks like some of this is about communicating with the deaf and how to do it. Other parts seem to be about how to set up a book. I had a minor in English composition in college and I can't make heads or tails out of what Littletune has been presented to work on.

Before we start to translate English into another language it needs to be real English.

[Bob]

Ah... I would guess citation has something to do with sign language, some form of it.  I don't know what that would be though.

But if you're not in charge of knowing all the details -- If you're just translating -- And you're 11 or 12... Just tell them as much as you can.  It's something about citation or dicitonary form and it's hard to tell from the context.


I've never heard of wovel space.  It might be a sign language thing again.


Not quite sure on 'lists in narratives'.  Maybe it means if you have a paragraph and say first, blah blah blah.  Second, blah blah blah, Finally, blah blah blah.  Or just numbering things.  1)  Blah blah blah 2) blah blah blah 3) yada yada yada.



I have never heard of pied-piped relative pronouns or standard prepositions.  I've heard of dangling modifiers though.


Mouthing a word is to make the shape of the word with your mouth without making any sound.  I don't know exactly what continous mouthing would be exactly.



I think you need to have sign language background in order to really make sense of it.  If you translate it as literally as possible, that might be good enough and you might not have to know exactly what they mean.  The person you're translating for might know what it means right away.  Either way, you can tell them you ran it by some native English speakers (but not sign language users) and they couldn't quite make sense of it either.

[countrymath]

They are not talking about piano.

[stevebob]

"Wovel space" is a typo.  The inverted triangle in the link is a common depiction of the vowel space within the mouth; the continuum of front/back and high/low is determined by the position and shape of the tongue.

Pied piping is a term (deriving from the Pied Piper of Hamelin) used in linguistics to describe a specific process of transformational grammar.  If you google "pied piping," you'll get lots of explanations (starting with the ubiquitous Wikipedia, which is probably as easy to understand as any).

Unfortunately, I don't have any insight into the other issues without knowing the context in which the phrases were used.

[littletune]

Thank you very much everyone!! Wow I didn't think it was THAT complicated!  then I guess it's good that I could even translate as much as I have! 

So well this is actually about "Sociolinguistic variation".... I mean at least that's the title    I don't know anything about it I'm just trying to translate like Bob said as literally as possible I guess

Oh about "wovel space"  ooops! that was my mistake, not a mistake from the book... I'm always confusing this w and v    sorry!

That's a whole story about that Pied Piper!  But the explanation about that pied piping is very complicated!  Maybe the person who needs this knows about the story anyway if she is studying linguistics and she'll know about what it's supposed to mean. Otherwise I'll just tell her that it's a special word order phenomenon (the first sentence from Wikipedia)  

I'm not sure about the context, just that it's all about why some people use different ways of saying something than others... 

Oh that: blah blah blah yada yada yada was funny!   

Thanks very much everyone!!! 

Oh something else (that I think is not so complicated I'm just not sure):
This sentence:
"Our discussion here takes its departure from Wolfram's work on variation in spoken laguages."

Does that mean that we will not be discussing that work anymore? or something? and that we'll be talking about something else?

Well thanks again! 

[stevebob]

A "point of departure" is a starting point for a discussion (or for a new direction in a discussion).

In the example you mention, a new discussion "takes its departure from Wolfram's work on variation in spoken languages" if it will be based upon (or related in some way to) Wolfram's work.  That doesn't necessarily mean that Wolfram's work is to be excluded completely, but the focus will certainly be on something different.

[littletune]

Thank you very much for explaining that Stevebob!  It was very helpful! 

Well another thing ... it's nothing complicated I guess... I just want to make sure...

These are examples (of putting a word in different places in a sentence) well it says:

"The variable placement of adverbs in English provides a convenient example:
(a) Quickly, John ran to the door.
(b) John quickly ran to the door.
(c) John ran quickly to the door.
(d) John ran to the door quickly.

So do all these sentences mean kinda the same? I'm asking because in my language the first sentence could mean something different.  I mean if "John" would be the first word after "quickly" it would be kinda like as if you said to someone else: Quickly, John ran to the door, (so we better hurry up, so he doesn't catch us..... or something like that  you know like: Quickly! John ran to the door! Run!!  ) but I guess in English it's not like that is it? Specially cause if it meant something like that it would probably have to be an exclamation point at the end. So well I would just need to know how it's meant cause in my language there's a different way of saying those things... I hope I explained that ok!   

[stevebob]

I think I get what you mean about "Quickly!  John ran to the door."  With the exclamation point there, the meaning is changed; it's like telling someone to do something quickly (e.g., to hurry) because John ran to the door.

Otherwise, the four sentences with quickly in various places are interchangeable.  Quickly describes the manner in which John ran, and the meaning is the same in all cases.

To me, the word order of sentence (a) seems a bit unnatural (while sentences (b), (c) and (d) are commonly used).  That might just be a reflection of popular usage in my region of the U.S., though.  As you probably know, there are many subtle variations by speakers in other parts of the English-speaking world.

[littletune]

Thanks very much again Stevebob for helping me!    Well for now I don't have any more questions but I'm sure I'll find something I won't know soon!  Thanks! 

[Bob]

It's the emphasis.

[littletune]

Yes I guess it is, thanks Bob!

Well a few new questions 

1. Anyone knows what a "copula" is? Is that anything like auxiliary verb or not at all? 

2. Sentence:
Co-variance here means that a correlation can be seen between the behavior of a linguistic variable and social factors, so that working-class speakers use more of a variable than middle-class speakers...
does "more of a variable" mean that they use one variable more... or does it mean that they use more variables in general? 

3. Sentence:
What does the patterning of linguistic and social factors reveal about the underlying grammar of the language under investigation?
What's "patterning of linguistic and social factors"? Is that like something that is repeating?

Thank you! 

[Bob]

Copula... no idea, unless it's a collequial style of "couple of."  Or a famous movie director.  (Francis Ford Copola or whatever his name is.)

2... Hmm.... I'm just guessing but maybe it means a wider range?  Working class speakers vary more?

3. This one makes more sense to me.  Linguistic and social factorc relate somehow and form a pattern.  It sounds like there's some type of relationship between them. 

[john11inc]

1.  Citation form is the same as dictionary form.  It is the uninflected form of the word (lacking bound morphemes).  For instance, "run" would be the citation form, while "ran" and "running" would be non-citation forms.

2.  I do not know what a "wovel space" is, but I think you mean to ask what a vowel space is.  It is a phonetic term dealing with the position of the tongue while executing vowel sounds.

3.  List doesn't mean anything particular, there.  It refers to syntax used when delivering a list.

4.  Pied-piping is a grammatical construction in which the relative pronoun appears after the subject.

5.  Simply that they are mouthing their words while signing them.

6.  Yes; that would mean that we are no longer speaking about Wolfram's works, specifically.

7.  All of those sentences have the same meaning, but (b) is incorrect in some circles.  It has a split infinitive.

8.  A copula is a linking verb.  It links the subject to the predicate.

9.  "More of a variable" is incorrect.  That sentence is pretty yucky.  It means there is a greater degree of discrepancy.  A better way to phrase that fragment would be, "working-class speakers use a more varied syntax than middle-class speakers [do]. . ."  If a form of the word "variable" must be used, try this: "a more variable syntax can by found being used by working-class speakers than [can be found being used by] middle-class speakers."  Phrases in brackets are technically necessary, but only technically.  The sentences are fine without them.

10.  More context would be useful, but my guess is that "patterning" means relationship.

[littletune]

Thank you Bob for helping me!  

And thanks very much John for answering all of my questions!  You really know a lot about that! (and yes I made a mistake with that "wovel"    )

Thanks VERY much everyone for helping me with this!!! You're all really cool!  So now I will start translating a new chapter (another 4 pages)... I hope I can do it a little faster than in 2 or 3 weeks (that's how much I needed for the first 4 pages!  )  and I'm sure I'll have a lot of questions again! 
*Littletune sends hugs to everyone*      Thanks!   

Oh just something unrelated (I don't think I've ever used this word before! I think I'm getting all smart because of this translation thing!      ) well I saw on John11inch's youtube channel two videos of this guy Vinko Globokar... is he Slovenian or not?  Cause his name and specially his last name is sure Slovenian!! He's got the same name as my dad  and his last name means something about deep  Because "globok" means deep and "globokar would mean I guess someone who lives or goes somewhere deep.     

[john11inc]

Globokar is a French composer, although he is of Slovene descent.

[littletune]

Oh ok thanks!  I've looked on Wikipedia too and it's funny because in English and in French it says he's a French composer of Slovene descent and in Slovene and German it says he's a Slovene composer    What does he say he is? Oh probably he's just like: Oh whatever!! 

[littletune]

So... well... I have some questions again!  Actually I don't really understand these two sentences so well...    I'm not sure if anyone can help me with that or not but I'll try asking anyway 

1st sentence:

Secondly, it should be structural: the more the item is integrated into a larger system of functioning units, the greater will be the intrinsic linguistic interest of our study.

...so is there any other simpler way of saying this? And what does "intrinsic linguistic interest" mean... I mean I looked up the word "intrinsic" but I still don't really know what it means exactly. 

2nd sentence :

On the basis of interviews with slightly more than one percent of the permanent population, stratified by age, ethnicity, occupation and area of residence, Labov found that islanders with the most positive attitudes toward Martha's Vineyard centralized the onsets of these diphthongs most frequently.

Could someone explain this sentence a little ... I mean specially: what exactly does it mean "stratified" ? And what does it mean "centralized the onsets of these diphthongs.." I looked up diphthongs so I know what those are, but I sure don't know what it means to centralize the onsets of them... 

So... any help would be great! 

[Bob]

Hmmm... It's a little trickier without the rest of the paragraph (although I don't think I'd want to read this...).

First sentence...
Intrinsic means something like built-in, inner, an essential part.  If you took it away, that thing wouldn't be quite that thing anymore. 

I'm seeing something like... The more the item becomes part of the larger whole, the more it's an essential interest.  There's more information in the sentence, but it's something like that.

Second sentence...
They did a study.  They collected information about those aspects -- age, ethnicity, etc.  Think 'broken down into elements' for stratified. 

I'm not sure what 'centralized the onsets'means but if it has something to do with speech, I'm thinking it's something with either the mouth or with the pronunciation of the dipthongs.


This looks like verbose academic writing.  For that second sentence, you could break it up into pieces (rewrite it in shorter sentences) and it might be easier to understand, less to keep in mind all at once. 

Fun reading.  Haha.

[oxy60]

2nd sentence:

Someone did a study into that odd dialect spoken (like the Kennedy's sound) in that area. People who liked (had a positive attitude about) the exclusive area (Martha's V) spoke differently (pronounced the consonants harder) than those with a less positive attitude (answered on a scale of 1-10).

My thought is that this text, and the one you posted before were written by people who do not speak English. These read like translations for the publication of their study. I think it is a little unfair that you are asked to translate a translation.

[littletune]

Thank you very much Bob and Oxy you're so nice for helping me with this!
Well yes some sentences are really weird  and it's not always so much fun  but I might get some money for translating this so I'm trying to do it as well as I can   thanks!! 

[oxy60]

Good luck on these little projects.

I'll never forget assisting in the subtitling of a Dutch movie into English for the Berlin festival. The first step was for a Dutch-English "dry" translation. Then it was handed to me to be put into literary English. Unscrambling the convoluted sentences that are sometimes as long as a paragraph was a serious challenge.

When I saw that Bulgarian name associated with your text I had an idea you were working with a translation. In this case it might have been easier to get the original Bulgarian text.

[littletune]

Good luck on these little projects.

Thanks

Well the two pages that I was translating now weren't that difficult, except one thing was weird and I think it must be a mistake... cause they were talking about 5 different speech styles in the text and one of them was "casual speech" and then in the table it said "casual speech" too, but then in the figure it said "careful speech"  even though it said there were same results in the table and in the figure... so I think it MUST be a mistake... I mean cause wouldn't "casual speech" be just the oposite of "careful speech"?  I think it has to be a mistake!

[Bob]

Typos like that would only make it more difficult.  Ouch.

[littletune]

Yes  but oh well... ... But "casual speech" and "careful speech" would be just the oposite right? oh I just saw that it should be "opposite"   

[littletune]

Well I'm translating something again... but not that thing about linguistics, now I have to translate something more medical... well so I'm not sure what "renal tract" or "renal tracts" are... cause I looked on the internet and sometimes I get that it's urinary system and sometimes that it's kidneys  so I'm not sure... does anyone know what exactly it is? 

[oxy60]

It is what it says. It can be ultra sounded with a high definition machine. Generally National Health Plans will not pay for the investigation

This is a very high level medical article you're working on. You may not have a word for it in your language.

Good luck!

[littletune]

Thanks Oxy!  Well maybe I should then just leave the same word as it is in English  (renal) and just change the endings a little to make it sound more Slovenian    I think maybe that would be the best! 

[ongaku_oniko]

It's official; 12 year old slovenian girls are better at English, Biology and linguistics than 90% of university students in north america. At least first year university students.

[emill]

Hi Littletune !

Strictly the urinary tract is the system where urine is formed and flows through .... and comprises the kidneys where urine is produced..... ureters (the tube-like structures connecting the kidneys to the urinary bladder) ---- the urinary bladder .... and finally urine is passed out (or pissed  ) through the  opening we call the urethra.

Renal tracts .... the pathway where urine is formed and flows within the kidney..... so you have the glomerulus where urine is formed .... then the proximal tubules ... descending and ascending tubules .... collecting tubules ... ETC (quite technical really) eventually to the renal calyces.... (and out into the ureters)

Hope it helps...

MY!!... a 12 year-old translating all of these.....  whheeewww!!!  it is so complicated.

[littletune]

It's official; 12 year old slovenian girls are better at English, Biology and linguistics than 90% of university students in north america. At least first year university students.

Well... it's not that I understand everything I'm translating  I'm just trying to do my best and help people who don't understand English very well  But thanks anyway    Oh and those are all the things I'm very interested in Since forever, ever since I can remember... languages and biology... I have been reading all the books I could find about biology since I could read... (and I started learning how to read and write when I was 3  cause I always really loved books so I really wanted to learn.)

Hi Littletune !

Strictly the urinary tract is the system where urine is formed and flows through .... and comprises the kidneys where urine is produced..... ureters (the tube-like structures connecting the kidneys to the urinary bladder) ---- the urinary bladder .... and finally urine is passed out (or pissed  ) through the  opening we call the urethra.

Renal tracts .... the pathway where urine is formed and flows within the kidney..... so you have the glomerulus where urine is formed .... then the proximal tubules ... descending and ascending tubules .... collecting tubules ... ETC (quite technical really) eventually to the renal calyces.... (and out into the ureters)

Hope it helps...

MY!!... a 12 year-old translating all of these.....  whheeewww!!!  it is so complicated.

Wow thanks!  That is a very detailed explanation!  How do you know all that?? Are you a doctor or a biology teacher or something?  Thank you! 

[tds]

wish i could help, the ever sweet littletune.  alas, me english is officially everywhere - u no?

[kelly_kelly]

It's official; 12 year old slovenian girls are better at English, Biology and linguistics than 90% of university students in north america. At least first year university students.

Hahaha, agreed But I'm a math/physics student anyway, so I don't feel so bad... who needs English or biology when they have equations?

[littletune]

wish i could help, the ever sweet littletune.  alas, me english is officially everywhere - u no?

Thank you Tds!     

Hahaha, agreed But I'm a math/physics student anyway, so I don't feel so bad... who needs English or biology when they have equations?

Oh math!    Well I hope I'll like math a little better now when we got a new teacher     

[littletune]

Well now my dad asked me to check a summary in English (for his friend)... He always checks the Slovenian text and I check the English summary (and then I get 10 euros  ) And it's something about the roads and traffic and something  So could anyone tell me what is the difference between "act" and "law"  Cause it's like this (I mean I think the whole sentence is kinda weird, but maybe that's cause I don't even really understand what's it about  ):
"Such a requirement is already defined in the Act About the Roads and in the Law on Public Utilities. "
Does that make sense?  And why is it the first time "act" the second time "law"? 

And the other thing is this sentence: What sounds better:
"One of the basic activities is ongoing road maintenance." or:
"One of the basic activities is regular road maintenance."
And does "basic activities" sound ok or not? 

I really don't know anything AT ALL about road maintenance and acts and laws so it's really difficult. 

Oh for translating that medical text I got today a pizza and a salad and a dessert And I got a card with a flower and a bee on it and something smelling nice to put in a closet and a giant Easter egg and ... 60 euros!!   

So thanks again everyone for helping me!!     

[oxy60]

Defining act and law is quite subtle. That sentence is fine as it stands.

And the other thing is this sentence: What sounds better:
"One of the basic activities is ongoing road maintenance." or:
"One of the basic activities is regular road maintenance."
And does "basic activities" sound ok or not?  :-

The "regular" choice is better and basic activities is OK.

You should raise your price!

[ongaku_oniko]

I am still baffled at how 12 yr old slovenian girls use such complex vernacular.

I don't quite agree with oxy.

"About the roads" doesn't sound like an Act. I think it needs to be changed.

for the second sentence, it depends on what you're trying to say.

ongoing road maintenance is non-stop. Regular means the maintence happens every once in a while at regular intervals.


I wish I could earn 10 euros.

[littletune]

Defining act and law is quite subtle. That sentence is fine as it stands.

The "regular" choice is better and basic activities is OK.

You should raise your price!

Thank you!!
Hmm yes maybe I should raise my price  (I'm saving now for the digital piano  So I'll be able to practice any time I'll want and for as long as I'll need to.  without worrying about the neighbours! ) 

I am still baffled at how 12 yr old slovenian girls use such complex vernacular.

I don't quite agree with oxy.

"About the roads" doesn't sound like an Act. I think it needs to be changed.

for the second sentence, it depends on what you're trying to say.

ongoing road maintenance is non-stop. Regular means the maintence happens every once in a while at regular intervals.


I wish I could earn 10 euros.

Thanks What's a "vernacular"?  Well if you mean something about these sentences... I didn't write them... I'm just checking if it sounds ok... 

Well my dad said I should just leave it as they wrote it (I mean "act" and "law") even if it's not perfect... and I wrote "regular" in the second sentence.

Thanks for the help! 

[oxy60]

Now that there has been a question, I'll make a longer answer.

Only a law making entity can make a law. Those are normally government bodies elected by the people who have an enforcing authority (police).

Regarding the language about the roads, there were two distinct entities. One declared a policy (the act) and another made a law. If the law is violated the police can jump in and arrest the offender because they have specific language in their law book of what constitutes a violation.

If someone violates the act (policy) there will still be consequences but first some judge will need to decide exactly what constitutes a violation.

All this varies from country to country.

[ongaku_oniko]

Okay OKay, what I meant was, the title "about the roads" doesn't seem fitting. Like it looks like it's used as part of a sentence, rather than being a clear title of an Act. I'm not saying that it's not an Act.

So when I read "Act about the roads", it sounds awkward. But that's just me

And littletune, Vernacular means commonly spoken words, as opposed to literary words, which are normally quite simple. So complex vernacular is really an oxymoron.

What I was trying to say from that, is that even complex words are used by you just like commonly spoken words, or vernacular. Or, for littletune, complex words are just a vernacular. I hope that sort of makes sense.

[littletune]

Oh thanks for explaining I guess I kinda get it... but I'm not exactly sure which complex words I use (but I don't know what "oxymoron" is)  Thanks

[ongaku_oniko]

oxymoron is something that is contradictory, like the "living dead" or "pretty ugly"

[littletune]

Hmm well... I'm trying to translate something again!    I think I'll just quit school and open a translating company (or whatever that would be called  )
Could anyone explain what a : clinical entity is?  (I guess it's not that important but I kinda wanna know now). 

[oxy60]

I think my friend administrates (is the administrator of) one but I need to wait until Monday or so when he gets back to find out if that is what he calls his team.

[pianowolfi]

A clinical entity seems to be an officially acknowledged clinical picture or disease pattern, for instance "hypertension" or "huntington's disease".

[littletune]

Thanks Oxy!
Thanks Wolfi! 

[littletune]

Could anyone tell me what "dowstream" means? 
If it says that one thing is downstream of another thing (it's about some biological processes), what does that mean? Does it mean that the first thing happens later than the other thing (or process)?  or what?
(It's written like this a lot of times in the text I'm translating now, so I would really like to know.) thanks 

[littletune]

Oh it's ok I found one dictionary where that word is (and some others from the text too) I think it has to do with some biochemical processes (and nothing else)  yes half of the time I don't even know what Im translating  .... but i don't care ! I'm so tired! I have been translating this stupid complicated thing for more than a week!!!!!!! and I still have one page and a half!  but i have to finish it today because I can't do it for one more day!!!!!!! even if today I won't do anything else I'm gonna finish it because otherwise I'll go crazyyyyyyyyyy! I want to have a nice Sunday tomorrow and do my things not this stupid complicated thing!!!  I have enough!!!
Oh sorry, I had to say it  I'm just really tired!