piano, music and noise

[okoie]

An eastern wise man (maitre à penser) died in 2007 maintained that THE APPRECIATION OF
MUSIC (and all other arts) IS CULTURALLY DETERMINED AND IS A PRODUCT OF OUR MIND-CONDITIONING.IT IS ACQUIRED TASTE THAT TELLS YOU THAT THE NOISE PRODUCED BY A PIANO IS MORE BEAUTIFUL THAN A CHORUS OF CATS SCREAMING,BOTH PRODUCE EQUALLY VALID SENSATIONS. OF COURSE SOME SOUNDS CAN BE DAMAGING TO THE BODY, AND NOISE LEVELS ABOVE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF DECIBELS CAN CAUSE DEAFNESS-THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.
As a musician I am meditating on this quote.

[stevebob]

What exactly is the quotation?  And by whom?

I'm most perplexed by this statement:  "Both produce equally valid sensations."  What does valid mean in that context?  How could a sensation be anything other than "valid"?

[okoie]

I have written the quotation in capital letters ; it is by mr. Uppaluri Gopala.The term valid is referred to the fact that both noises stimulate the same structures of the nervous sistem.There is not a noise better or more pleasurable than another unless the mind steps in and creates the difference, and this difference may only be the result of the brainwashing (conditioning) we have undergone since our birth.

[Derek]

All I have to do to realize that that is nonsense is to ask myself, if I had not grown up hearing any music of any sort, would I approach discovering music (playing with my voice, strings, some kind of flute like instrument, drums, etc.) and say: "well, nothing really stands out to me so I guess I'll just pick a bunch of arbitrary intervals and brainwash my children and hope that they continue to do so for a thousand years after I'm dead."   It seems to me the self evident answer is no. But, I'm just an amateur and lack any sort of intellectual depth whatsoever. After all, I didn't get a degree in music.    Maybe if I did, I'd gradually accept that everything we do musically is totally arbitrary. I might as well write a symphony for an orchestra of rectii as play the piano, all I have to do is re brainwash myself.

[nystul]

It seems like a pretty shallow thought for a wise man.  Of course there is a big cultural element to what types of music we appreciate.  But any culture I've heard of had music, and the musics of different cultures have an awful lot of common elements compared to the scope of random sound.  It seems to me that are physical and instinctive realities that come into play here.  Won't a newborn react to certain sounds as pleasing and others as a threat, even though they aren't physically damaging to the ears?   Harmonics are very much a naturally occurring phenomenon.  The human voice for example.  There is no getting away from it, regardless of culture.  And isn't there a natural rhythm to human life dictating the beating of our heart, the rate we breath, the speed we walk?

[okoie]

Nystul and Derek,
I would like to have your certainties: I could have easily and rapidly liquidate this quotation as a nonsense or as a shallow thought. May be it is a matter of self-awareness.

[stevebob]

Maybe some people need to believe that there is an equivalency among all auditory sensations.  I think that's demonstrably false, as even an infant (who couldn't possibly have been brainwashed by cultural values or "mind-conditioning") recognizes the difference between a lullaby and random noise.  When an "eastern wise man" cloaks such a belief in high-toned language like "both produce equally valid sensations," it still seems like a load of crap to me.

If this sentiment speaks to you, okoie, that's fine.  Still, I wouldn't mistake that for elevated "self-awareness."

[pianowolfi]

An eastern wise man (maitre à penser) died in 2007 maintained that THE APPRECIATION OF
MUSIC (and all other arts) IS CULTURALLY DETERMINED AND IS A PRODUCT OF OUR MIND-CONDITIONING.IT IS ACQUIRED TASTE THAT TELLS YOU THAT THE NOISE PRODUCED BY A PIANO IS MORE BEAUTIFUL THAN A CHORUS OF CATS SCREAMING,BOTH PRODUCE EQUALLY VALID SENSATIONS. OF COURSE SOME SOUNDS CAN BE DAMAGING TO THE BODY, AND NOISE LEVELS ABOVE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF DECIBELS CAN CAUSE DEAFNESS-THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.
As a musician I am meditating on this quote.

A bad interpretation of the slogan "back to nature". What should be bad about Culture? Culture is learning to live our true potential.

I would recommend you to choose wiser meditation subjects than this one.

(But of course, from an other point of view everything can be a good meditation subject)

[ingunite]

Sounds like a summary for the theory of cultural relativism, not sure worth meditating upon. Instead, it might be more productive to enroll in Philosophy 101 to acquire some perspective.
When you apply the described principle to aesthetic values, you are on a very slippery ground, because the works of art and music by their intrinsic design cannot be perceived objectively, and it is up to you, the audience, to accept or reject them on their own values, in their historical contexts and subjective impressions they create in you. Of course, the analysis of thereof is extremely important, but not the single dominant factor.
The "wise man" obviously treats the music as a social and historical phenomenon plus a physical and psychological auditory experience therefore summarily rejecting it as an art.
Wait, haven't there been many scientific studies about how human brain has genetically evolved to accept certain frequencies/sounds/even key signatures as pleasant, stimulating, or healing?
I find the idea that human brain is genetically wired to perceive and appreciate beauty in its many forms extremely uplifting and inspiring.

[ingunite]

This the best summary of theory of beauty I have seen, read, or heard, presented in a truly elegant, amusing, and concise manner.
If you have not seen it before, please give it your attention.
YouTube - Denis Dutton: A Darwinian theory of beauty

!

 

[stevebob]

ingunite:

Thank you for both of those posts.  Much appreciated!

[ingunite]

Stevebob,
You are very welcome. Glad you liked it.

[okoie]

Ingunite,
As you kindly asked I have seen the conference of prof. Dutton on YouTube.
A question remains in me: I have known people in the same town or small village who like rock music and dislike classical,people who like them both and hate folk music, people who like every kind of music and who dislike all music; as you can see, a variety of situations and the list is not ended.
How can I use the darwinian theory of beauty to discover the cause of the above mentioned matter of fact?
Perhaps evoking the random crossing-over of the genes after the human ovum fecundation
and liquidating  these differences among people as a  recessive character?

[ingunite]

 

Perhaps evoking the random crossing-over of the genes after the human ovum fecundation
and liquidating  these differences among people as a  recessive character?

I dunno... Let me know how it comes out.

[okoie]

Ingunite, it comes out of human embryology  research