Advice needed on Steinway purchase

[lh78]

There's an old 1896 Upright Steinway nearby that I am about to purchase.  It needs work. It hasn't been maintained much over the years, and it's not been moved in about 50.  It hasn't been tuned in 20.  My plan was to buy it, play it for now, and eventually get it restored.

I had a technician over to the seller's house to go through it with me an provide an estimate.  He doesn't agree with my plan to just attempt a "light" tuning (ie, not up to concert pitch, but in tune with itself) and in fact won't touch it in this weather. (dry and cold)  The pegs are slipping and some have already been tapped in.  

So while I understand his concern and him not wanting to be responsible for slipping tuning and possibly breaking strings when it's brought up to tune slowly, I have a conundrum.

A) I am a music student at the local university.  They have practice rooms filled with Steinways. However, I am 30 minutes away from campus and also working full time, so my schedule doesn't really allow me the freedom to get into those practice rooms.  This is why I decided to purchase a real piano (versus the midi controller - without sounds - I've been using)  I would like to have this piano IN my house (versus the studio in a separate building I've built on my property, the location of the midi controller) so when I'm working through Theory exercises and counterpoint, I can actually play it on a real piano.

B)  I don't want a low end piano. I don't want a furniture piece.  I want a quality instrument, and I like the look and feel of this Steinway.  I know there's other pianos I could get into for roughly the same amount of money, but like the piano tech said - it won't be a Steinway.  He mentioned this particular model is in high demand right now, and they actually have another of the same in their shop right now going through a full restore.

So what's the problem?  It will take 4 months to restore. They are that backed up.  And - it will cost $2700 + tax on top of the cost of the piano.  Granted, this will still get me into the Steinway for roughly $3500.  The rebuild includes all new strings, pins, hammers, dampers, replacing the ivories with plastic, regulating the action and pedals and 2 moves.  I won't have it refinished because I said, I'm not looking for a furniture piece and it's really not that bad.  Maybe one day down the road, but not now. It's more than I wanted to spend (was hoping to come in at about $1500 for the repair work) but the tech insists that the piano is in great shape otherwise and would be a worthwhile investment for a rebuild, not to mention immediately being worth more than I put into it.

But... it will be 4 months to get it back.  So that means no piano for this entire semester.

So, if you've gotten down this far:

1)  Should I just get the piano, move it to my house (for an additional $280) and bring it up to some sort of tune (I believe it will hold a moderately ok tune, not concert, but fine for practice) for the semester and then send it out for restore over the break?  (the wait time during the summer could be as short as 8 weeks instead of 16)  This is not a sure thing. It's possible it won't hold any tune.  A good 1/2 of the instrument is still in decent tune even after 20 years though, so I think it could hold somewhat of a decent tune for a few months.

2)  Should I just send it out and deal without a piano for the whole semester?  (which negates the whole point of getting a real piano again to begin with)

3)  Forget the whole thing and stick with my midi controller?

4)  Forget the Steinway and try to find another decent piano, but without the mojo of the Steinway?

Opinions are appreciated, if you've made it this far.

[jimbo320]

Make holding a tuning part of the agreement. Rough tune it before moving it. If it fails, no buy. If it does okay. Tweak it after it's in your house. Wait 3 weeks before tweaking. When they can start restoring it, then be without it. It sounds like a good deal although I've been told to only buy new.
If it was me I'd go for a real good digital. Yamaha has one that would amaze you. A Yamaha CP5.
It has the feel and sound of the C5 grand. Check out the site I buy from.....
 https://www.musiciansfriend.com/

Which ever you choose, good luck.
Jimbo

[lh78]

Thanks for the reply.  I had a Baldwin digital baby grand for years and years.  It was ok.  But I want the real thing.  I'm satisfied with my digital piano sounds that I get out of the Alicia Keys Soft piano and my midi controller....

The tech did tune up one key while there just to test how far gone the pins were and it did come up to tune.  How long will it hold that tune though, is the question... 

[jimbo320]

Hard to say. Depends if the strings are too brittle or not and if the pins are too far gone. That's one good thing about my digital, no strings and always in perfect tune. Have you ever gone to a Yamaha showroom?

Jimbo

[lh78]

You are really bent on that Yamaha digital, aren't you.     I'm not considering a digital instrument.  I have one.

[jimbo320]

Yeah I am.
Here's my opinion on acoustics (Grands).
Baldwin has a great low tone to it. Steinway has a better feel and a little higher tone. A Yamaha has the best sound boards, longer lasting keys and strings. I really like the Yamaha C series grands. If you get a chance, try the C7 or C5 grands.
I'm not to informed on uprights but I hear for uprights, Samick is the way to go. Samick calls their uprights verticals.
For a more professional opinion, check out this guy...https://www.silverwoodpianos.com/

Jimbo

[abcdef123]

You really like the CP5 Jimbo.. Posting on almost every topic about it.. 

[jimbo320]

Hahaha, yes I do.....

[richard black]

That price, including restoration, and allowing a bit extra on top for moving etc., is a real bargain for a quality instrument. Buy it. In your position I wouldn't hesitate. You can simply rent something for the 4 months - why not? It won't break the bank.

[keys60]

That's a really old piano that doesn't sound like it had much love.
You're a student? Pretty much starting out? I'd avoid it myself. It needs a serious pitch raise and there may be breaking strings. You never did mention a new pin block. That could be shot and new strings and pins do not necessarily mean stable tuning.
How about the hundred years of environmental pollution that has permeated the action. Rust flange pins and brittle felt.
Old upright Steinways are not THAT rare and the ones that need total restoration can be had at around that price.
Put around 7-8k into it plus the purchase price and you might get your moneys worth, but it you are burdened with serious education costs, don't do it. If you got the cold cash to throw around, it could be a nice investmant.
Pick up a nice studio Hamilton or something comparable instead.

No offense. Just spoken like a parent speaks.

[lh78]

Nope, not just starting out. I'm working on my masters. I've been playing piano since 3rd grade, however, it is not my main instrument.

A Hamilton / Baldwin studio is actually the other piano I am considering. I just missed a real nice one from the 80s a couple hours away.

I'm getting really conflicting opinions on this Steinway.  Some techs are saying yes, definitely got for it, it's worth it and others are saying run away as fast as you can, it's a money pit.

Two techs that have seen the piano in person, in fact, are on opposite sides of the fence.  One the family invited over and I have since spoken to him.  He says he tried to find any interested parties to purchase it to restore in the industry locally and everyone turned him down. This could either be the economy speaking or truely no one wants to get involved with it.  He says forget the pin upsizing, you'll need a new pin block a few years later.

The second tech that I invited over who is the main piano rebuilder in town says put about $4k total into it and you'd have a fully upgraded piano internally (but no refinish)  $2700 would be the minimal needed to get it playable.  He says the new pins would last 50 years and mentioned nothing about a new pin block.  When I raised that with the tech the family brought over, he said ask them to warranty that and you'll get a different answer.

So now I'm having serious reconsiderations.  I don't want a money pit, but I don't want a low end piano either.

[jimbo320]

A new pin block won't be needed if the correct pins are used. Some techs prefer one brand over another. Using the correct pin size saves the block. Now do you see why I prefer new? Don't care for verticals either. The action is too hard and slow if you like trills and fast arpeggios. But some can deal with that.
Definitely you don't want to get involved in a money pit. Be careful.

Musically, Jimbo

[keys60]

I believe in total restoration if it really needs it. Not just bringing it up to playable. That means somewhere down the line, you'll be fixing the thing that breaks.  There are vintage vertical Steinways with....... ahem......asking prices of 25K. Depends on how much you love old stuff. They are good pianos, but not really what keeps Steinway on the map.
If you restore it, you'll probably will get you're dollars worth investment wise.

Ever think the tech may love to get the job? Not that he's trying to rip you off or anything, but that's his bread and butter, and sure, you'll have a nice piano to boot.

Sure. I'd like to have a nice restored conversation piece too if I had the space and money, and if its rebuilt properly, its no longer that money pit.


I view the old verticals more of heirlooms and collectibles for those that can afford cool toys. If its a working tool you're after, I'd look around.

Again. I'm a tech just starting out and have been hitting the PTG meetings. I'm certainly not one of your better experienced techs that have been doing this for many years. Its just my opinion and if you think you'll be really happy, its only your opinion that counts. Not to mention, I'm helping to keep fellow techs working.

I'd hate to have to miss the opportunity and then blaming me somewhere down the line.

All the best.

Curtis

[music32]

This does not sound like a wise purchase.. There are far better pianos around..

[lh78]

I'm really torn on this now.  I stopped by the rebuilder's shop today. He has one of these (from 1904 instead of 1896, but identical piano) in his shop.  It's going through a total restore. (and then being made into a player piano actually, it's what the owner wants)  But right now it's in the restore shape that I would get mine back in.  So he invited me to take a look at that piano and play it so I could see exactly what I would get if/when "mine" was restored and educated me on the process.  He and the other tech definitely come from different school's of thought, and he said the restore would get the same warranty that new pianos get when they leave the store - 10 years.  He INSISTS that pin block will not break, and the other tech is just flat out wrong.  Like someone else mentioned, when using the correct pins and doing it correctly, it will last longer than I will.

WOW.  Tone for days. That thing just sang and the lower register was just unmatched by anything else in the shop other than grand pianos.  I played about 20 pianos today.  Kimballs, the house brand, Kawai, Yamahas, Young Chang, and a Baldwin Studio in one of the teaching studios he offered to sell me.  I still came back to the Steinway at the end of the day.  It just sounded so much better than everything else.  The action felt heavy at first, but as I played on it more, I actually did like it.  The Baldwin Studio was a close second and if it could match the bass tone of the Steinway, I probably would go for it.

So right now it is definitely between the Baldwin Studio and the Steinway. Without refinishing the case of the Steinway (which I am not considering because I don't think the case now is that bad) and just doing the "getting it playable", I would be into both for about the same amount of money. It would be another $900 more to do a total restoration of all the internals.

I considered the tech just wanting the job too...  But with the 4 month wait to get it restored and the amount of pianos they had back there being worked on and in the line-up to be worked on, they are not hurting for business in the least.  They do almost all the schools in the area and most of the major culturals as well.  So I don't think that's the case.  If anything, I think he really wanted me to buy that Baldwin!

[richard black]

A good piano restorer can really make an old instrument like that sing. Sounds as if this guy knows what he's doing.

[keys60]

I see you mention the cost of the work to be done at $2700.00. Around these parts (NY/Long Island),
that's roughly the cost of a restringing/pins and a regulation. Might need hammer reshaping too. I couldn't tell you his rates. What you didn't mention is how much the asking price is for the piano, if you don't mind me asking.

Re: pinblock. They do go bad. Most total restorations have it changed. When restringing, usually they go 2 sizes up in pins. From a #2 to a #4. A #3 if you can get away with it. No one will know what shape the pinblock is in until he test various pins in different sections with a torque wrench specifically designed for pins. It may or may not be in good shape. Hopefully it will be. Like you said, they are currently slipping and have been tapped in already.
He sounds qualified, so just go with the flow.

I agree on the tuning. After 20 years, that's gonna be quite a pitch drop. In tune with itself may be a whole tone off. You also want to know if it will hold the added tension. He's also telling you the truth about the weather. Lucky if you get a whole month out of a tuning in this dry arctic air with the heat on further drying the air.

You sound really enthused. You can and should still look around at restored vintage Steinways if you haven't done so already.

If it feels that right, I hope you love it.

[keys60]

Sorry. Reread your post. Total cost $3500.00. Seems quite low for all that work mentioned. A bargain if its not too good to be true.

[silverwoodpianos]

Sorry. Reread your post. Total cost $3500.00. Seems quite low for all that work mentioned. A bargain if its not too good to be true.

Indeed it is. I am writing a posting for the OP; will post in the am tomorrow...cheers

[silverwoodpianos]

Now it is important to understand that I have not inspected this instrument in person. I am going on what you have stated in general terms.

There's an old 1896 Upright Steinway nearby that I am about to purchase.  It needs work. It hasn't been maintained much over the years, and it's not been moved in about 50.  It hasn't been tuned in 20.  My plan was to buy it, play it for now, and eventually get it restored.

Well, I’m not wanting to be too objective but for a 116 yr old upright piano why would there be any purchase price at all? An instrument of this sort, of this age, even a brand name like Steinway that has been neglected for a couple of decades, will be in rough shape. The financial value is zero or close to zero; perhaps the cost of the move only.

I had a technician over to the seller's house to go through it with me an provide an estimate.  He doesn't agree with my plan to just attempt a "light" tuning (ie, not up to concert pitch, but in tune with itself) and in fact won't touch it in this weather. (dry and cold)  The pegs are slipping and some have already been tapped in. 
So while I understand his concern and him not wanting to be responsible for slipping tuning and possibly breaking strings when it's brought up to tune slowly, I have a conundrum.

I would concur with your technician; once again for a 116 yr old instrument that has not been tuned for 20 years with loose tuning pins, one can tune this instrument all day long; as soon as it is used the loose pins become a factor. The only reason the instrument may appear stable for the moment is most likely because the pitch is low and nobody is playing. Raising the pitch will bring expose more tuning pins that have failed. Play this instrument regularly and it will run out of tune quickly…….

A) I am a music student at the local university.  They have practice rooms filled with Steinways. However, I am 30 minutes away from campus and also working full time, so my schedule doesn't really allow me the freedom to get into those practice rooms.  This is why I decided to purchase a real piano (versus the midi controller - without sounds - I've been using)  I would like to have this piano IN my house (versus the studio in a separate building I've built on my property, the location of the midi controller) so when I'm working through Theory exercises and counterpoint, I can actually play it on a real piano.

I am going to be a little more direct here. In this paragraph you kindly state you have decided to purchase a real piano. Well that may be the case but this one is not it. An instrument of 116 yrs of age will require a complete rebuild. What you have discovered is a “project piano” a name brand upright instrument from yesterday’s world. I guess you will have to decide whether or not you are a student of music or a student of piano restoration. I can tell you which one you will become with this instrument…….

B)  I don't want a low end piano. I don't want a furniture piece.  I want a quality instrument, and I like the look and feel of this Steinway.  I know there's other pianos I could get into for roughly the same amount of money, but like the piano tech said - it won't be a Steinway.  He mentioned this particular model is in high demand right now, and they actually have another of the same in their shop right now going through a full restore.

Understood. Unfortunately right now you are looking at a piece of furniture; it has been sitting there for 20 years as you stated right? Yes it is an old Roll- Royce of the piano industry but once again requires a complete restoration in order to be a viable instrument for regular use.

So what's the problem?  It will take 4 months to restore. They are that backed up.  And - it will cost $2700 + tax on top of the cost of the piano.  Granted, this will still get me into the Steinway for roughly $3500.  The rebuild includes all new strings, pins, hammers, dampers, replacing the ivories with plastic, regulating the action and pedals and 2 moves.  I won't have it refinished because I said, I'm not looking for a furniture piece and it's really not that bad.  Maybe one day down the road, but not now. It's more than I wanted to spend (was hoping to come in at about $1500 for the repair work) but the tech insists that the piano is in great shape otherwise and would be a worthwhile investment for a rebuild, not to mention immediately being worth more than I put into it.

No problem at all here; I don’t think you will get any objection from members about how you spend your disposable funds. Just so you are aware, I have been completing restorative work on piano for 39 years this year.  While I am not aware of your location and am not privy to the pricing in your locale here is an example of the fee I would charge for the same work listed:
Re-stringing with all tuning pins, block preparation, under felt, cleaning of bridges, sounding board, disposal of old wire, tuning to zero tension and back to A440,etc etc. $5000.00
Action/keyboard restoration with new felt replacement, new hammer set, new damper plates, and complete regulation of all motion flanges.$3500.00-4000.00
Ivory to plastic replacement $450.00 For moving charges 250 X 2 = $500.00 For pedal plating $175.00

Also count on what is termed as “hidden damage” sometimes when you get deep into a project there is hidden wear or problems that cannot be discovered until he instrument is dismantled, so add another $1000.00 perhaps.

So far we are up past 10K…

But... it will be 4 months to get it back.  So that means no piano for this entire semester.

Time is only a measurement.

So, if you've gotten down this far:
1)  Should I just get the piano, move it to my house (for an additional $280) and bring it up to some sort of tune (I believe it will hold a moderately ok tune, not concert, but fine for practice) for the semester and then send it out for restore over the break?  (the wait time during the summer could be as short as 8 weeks instead of 16)  This is not a sure thing. It's possible it won't hold any tune.  A good 1/2 of the instrument is still in decent tune even after 20 years though, so I think it could hold somewhat of a decent tune for a few months.
2)  Should I just send it out and deal without a piano for the whole semester?  (which negates the whole point of getting a real piano again to begin with)
3)  Forget the whole thing and stick with my midi controller?
4)  Forget the Steinway and try to find another decent piano, but without the mojo of the Steinway?
Opinions are appreciated, if you've made it this far.

Yes I can see that this could be a bit of an ego purchase with the “mojo of a Steinway” remark. No problem, we all have desires…..something to think about for the final thought:
I have a pizza shop and I make pizza all day long. I have 4 drivers that deliver the pizzas to your door. I need 4 dependable cars for them to use. Easy on the fuel, easy to park, relatively no maintenance, dependable transportation for buzzing around the city.

Should I get the small Honda Civic, or the small Toyota Echo or some other small dependable units or should I go and purchase those 4 old 1964 convertible Mustangs with the worn-out brakes and worn-out transmissions, steering that pulls to the left while braking, leaking and ripped tops,…..I mean what am I doing here? Am I in the pizza business or am I in the business of keeping old machinery on the road?

How many tow trucks will I need going with the second choice? This is the unknown…….
You are a student of music. Let’s keep it that way for the moment. There are plenty of Steinways to discover all over the place. When the time is right you will find another…….

[keys60]

Thank you for phrasing what I've been thinking Mr. Silverwood. Been waiting for you to chime in (or bail me out)
I hate tap dancing with someones emotions like that. We ALL want a Steinway.

The whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Ih78. You are a music major. Get yourself a decent piano in decent shape. A nice 48 inch studio piano can be had at a decent price. Forget the creme de la creme sticker on the fallboard.

I have a gorgeous Mercedes coupe in my driveway awaiting restoration. Didn't drive it for 4 years.
It just looks nice in the driveway.

[lh78]

Thanks for the advice.  And don't think that I'm disregarding it, because I've weighed all of the advice I've received equally.  I've decided to purchase the Steinway.  I didn't come to this decision easily and weighed all my options before deciding this.

The shop that gave the price estimate for the total rebuild (which is $3600 plus tax - $2700 was just to get it playable) includes everything.  It would include:  Replacing all strings and tuning pins.  Replacing all hammers.  Replacing all dampers.  Replacing the ivories (with plastic).  Regulating the action and pedals.  Replacing all flanges, buttons, shanks and tapes.  He would give the piano a 10 year warranty on the work.  This shop is not new to the game.  They've been rebuilding pianos since 1961.  It's a father / son operation.  They do most of the work on the pianos for the major culturals and schools in the area.

A note about the pins.  The rebuilder that inspected the piano explained that the current pins have not been altered in any way except for a few being tapped in.  He is absolutely confident that all pins will need to go up just one size further.  In one way, this was the GOOD thing about the piano not having been serviced in a while.  The pin block has not been molested in any other way.

I realize I can just get a sturdy, dependable piano that's newer.  But I played every upright piano in that shop. And none compared to that Steinway of the same model that they had just rebuilt.  Not even close to the sound that I was after.  Maybe it's just because the Steinway is 52" and the next closest I played was 45", but whatever it was, I liked the Steinway best.

You've misinterpreted my "mojo of a Steinway" comment.  Sure, the only reason I looked at the piano was because it was a Steinway. I wouldn't have bothered if it was say, a Kimball.  But I'm not just after a Steinway.  At the end, it was between rebuilding this piano and a really nice Baldwin Studio.  I played both back and forth in the shop.  I really did like the Steinway better.  I'm confident that had you stripped the labels off both, I STILL would have liked the Steinway better.

I've spoken to the following locally:
A piano technician who has seen the piano in person
A piano rebuilder who has seen the piano in person
A piano technician who has not seen the piano in person but is familiar with the work of the rebuilder
A piano technician for the local university
The owner of the other big piano place in town, who mostly sells Steinways

Of the 5 of them, all but one said that it would be an excellent investment once rebuilt.  Once the last found out how much the piano rebuilder quoted me for the work, he changed his tune and agreed that it would be an excellent investment.

The Baldwin Studio would set me back $3500 plus tax, it was used but would come with full warranty.  The Steinway piano would set me back $3600 for the full rebuild plus the cost of the piano ($500) and come with the same warranty.  So, it's $600 more for the piano that I liked the SOUND of better.

It's not logical.  But it's a risk I'm going to take. 

Thanks for the advice everyone.

[richard black]

Good on you! Apart from anything else, even if it does turn out to need a bit more attention that you've hoped for, you'll have something that really means something to you and isn't just a machine. A sentimental bond with a piano is important if you're going to spend a lot of time with it!

[wishful thinker]

You should note that there is no way of telling what the piano will be like once it has been rebuilt.  It will not feel or sound the way that it does now, nor will it be like the other one that you saw in the shop.  All pianos are different, even those of the same make.  Its a risk that you have to take, but it sounds like you've decided on a big risk, so good luck 

But why ON EARTH, would you want to replace ivory keys with plastic?  If they are yellow they can be bleached white and polished; if some are chipped they can be repaired or replaced.  An ivory keyboard is a joy to play on, and will be surely more valuable that plastic replacements.  DO NO DO THIS 

And another thing, unless they use Steinway parts, the result will not be top notch.

[lh78]

A lot of the ivory is already gone, having been replaced with plastic tips long ago.  As you are aware, ivory is not the easiest thing to come by these days.  I plan to ask for the salavagable ivory back, and it may be something i do later on if i can find a suitable amount of ivory to replace it back to original, but it's certainly not in the budget right now.

I'm confident the piano will be superb once completed. And yes, all the replacement parts will be Steinway. I think I mentioned that above.

[silverwoodpianos]

Thank you for phrasing what I've been thinking Mr. Silverwood. Been waiting for you to chime in (or bail me out)
I hate tap dancing with someones emotions like that. We ALL want a Steinway.

The whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Ih78. You are a music major. Get yourself a decent piano in decent shape. A nice 48 inch studio piano can be had at a decent price. Forget the creme de la creme sticker on the fallboard.

I have a gorgeous Mercedes coupe in my driveway awaiting restoration. Didn't drive it for 4 years.
It just looks nice in the driveway.

Hey Curtis,

When appraising an instrument along with the prospective purchaser’s interests included, one gives the practical facts and let them decide. This is all that can be done. After one does this as a professional service person the buyer/seller has to make their own choices with their own disposable funding. Many choose to ignore the advice on the practical side of things and many do not.

This may read a bit cold, but for a practical tech like myself these  are just instruments; oh sure, the different makers have their own subtleties and nuances in the tonal qualities or the action, but basically they are all the same instrument; the old ones require a lot of fixing while the recent ones do not so much. Heck we are not building the Taj Mahal for goodness sakes……. They’re just pianos…..

Nice to see you online. Funny thing about your Mercedes there a long,long time back I used to restore convertible Mustangs……had a few sitting in the driveway too……;)

[keys60]

Dan.

Hate to go off topic but, I had a 1967 black on black Mustang (in the 80's)with a stainless strip along the ceiling that were overhead map lights, a stainless rolltop compartment and console. It was a 200 cube inline 6 with manual steering, brakes and no a/c. Mint condition until some idiot wrecked it in a parking field. Loved that car.

[jimbo320]

Be careful were you park your piano.....

[john90]

Myself, in you position, without hesitation I would make the 'wrong' choice, and buy it without a second thought. It should be easy for you to sell a Steinway as it is, unrestored. I would keep the half plastic half ivory keyboard as is, tune it play it. Tuned as is, it could make a very special, romantic instrument, with a period tone and feel of its own. If it turns out to be a pile of junk, sell it on for what you paid, let someone else invest. Either way don't restore it. With the resto money saved, I would take a loan and buy a modern Steinway upright. When you are sufficiently acquainted with both Steinways, you may just come to love the old one most for what it is, as it is, something totally unique and irreplaceable. After all, you can always take out a loan and buy a new Steinway. It is easier and better to buy a new Steinway than to make an old piano into something it doesn't want to be.